Simple Question...No Simple Answer
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the shedding of blood paid the price for sins...but Christ does not go to the cross to die everytime someone repents and come to him...that is why he instituted repentance and baptism for the remission of sins...let us suppose I bought you a ticket for a plane ride to Hawaii although the ticket is paid for you cannot get on the plane if you don’t present the ticket .....repentance and baptism for the remission of sins is required for entrance into the kingdom...
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lol..
Christ died 2000 years ago. The payment for sin is either complete or it is not.
we are saved by trust in that work. Or we are not saved because we do not trust in that work. He paid the price in full (it is finished)
Why do you not trust that work?? Why are you placing more trust in your work, than Christs?
Christ died 2000 years ago. The payment for sin is either complete or it is not.
we are saved by trust in that work. Or we are not saved because we do not trust in that work. He paid the price in full (it is finished)
Why do you not trust that work?? Why are you placing more trust in your work, than Christs?
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what lie? That without faith you will not be saved? since when is that a lie?
that faith that is dead will prove it by not working? since when is that a lie?
better yet, how can you claim something that is dead, is ever alive, since when is a dead thing alive, or reality?
They do not have faith, it is a lie. Their CLAIMED faith (yes, I said claimed, what did james say? [SUP]14[/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?) That is the context of the passage, James never said they had faith, he is talking about people who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. so do they have faith? yes or no? He said it was dead, zero zip nada. no faith period. they were liars...
also. James made a statement, I WILL PROVE MY FAITH BY MY WORK.
he was proving faith is real, vs a false claimed faith. that is ALL!
that faith that is dead will prove it by not working? since when is that a lie?
better yet, how can you claim something that is dead, is ever alive, since when is a dead thing alive, or reality?
They do not have faith, it is a lie. Their CLAIMED faith (yes, I said claimed, what did james say? [SUP]14[/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?) That is the context of the passage, James never said they had faith, he is talking about people who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. so do they have faith? yes or no? He said it was dead, zero zip nada. no faith period. they were liars...
also. James made a statement, I WILL PROVE MY FAITH BY MY WORK.
he was proving faith is real, vs a false claimed faith. that is ALL!
yes it is completely paid for....just like the plane ticket....how does the scriptures
say we receive remission of sins? repent and be baptised for the remission of sins.....how do we die with Christ?...how are we buried with him?...how are we raised with him?
Acts 2:38-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Romans 6:2-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Colossians 2:11-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
say we receive remission of sins? repent and be baptised for the remission of sins.....how do we die with Christ?...how are we buried with him?...how are we raised with him?
Acts 2:38-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Romans 6:2-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Colossians 2:11-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
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ALL of those passages refer to GOD doing the work. Not you doing the work. your taking the work of God and attributing to the work of men.
Yes he paid the price, He is the only one who could. But he is also the one who must cleanse you, He is the only one who can.
Your placing your faith in some man and physical water, and not in the act of God saving you. As paul says in titus 3, It is not by any work of righteousnes, But only by his mercy, HE SAVES US, You want me to SAVE myself by doing those deeds, That is not what God says, I can not save myself. no matter how much work I do.
For goodness sakes guys, what does it matter what the personal gain from this or that is? The bible's fairly clear on the matter; heed instruction and you'll be grand. 'Love your God with all your mind, and with it, love your neighbour as yourself. All the law hinges on this'. Having faith is a DOING, not some mental abstract faculty that a person possesses when they think 'I want to go to heaven'.
It gets made so much more complex than it need be.
It gets made so much more complex than it need be.
Lol as soon as someone wants to argue against overly complicating things you compare 'em to a Pharisee? I thought the Pharisees complicated things into obscurity and held down dogmatic prerequisites that were a hinderance to the Jews of the time, not tried to clarify the pointlessness of such complexities. What was it Jesus of Nazareth said to the Pharisees, something like 'You don't enter the kingdom yourself, and you stop others from entering too'.
You're trying to make a little magic microscopically examined scriptural interpretation that's far too complex. It is your metaphorical 'keys to the gate of heaven', when your exegesis really isn't a prerequisite to 'get in'.
Besides, if your entire theology is based on 'getting in', I think you might be missing the point a little bit.
You're trying to make a little magic microscopically examined scriptural interpretation that's far too complex. It is your metaphorical 'keys to the gate of heaven', when your exegesis really isn't a prerequisite to 'get in'.
Besides, if your entire theology is based on 'getting in', I think you might be missing the point a little bit.
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most likely because it is the same, They made the same arguments, made the same theological errors. and if we really study them, did it with a sincere heart of trying to please God.
Paul had to deal with lot of them on his journeyes, even many of them (or jews in general) came to believe in Christ, but still wanted to add works to their own salvation, it comes with the same mindset. I have to please God or he will not save me, so I have to do these works. or I have no hope.
missing the point?
there is one gospel. not two or three, one. And is not getting in the thing we all fight for (think about it, if you do not get in, your get a ticket to hell. that should make it our most important point)
and no it is not just a few little things we are off on, and even if it was, again I refer you to galations 1 and what it means to preach a different gospel. and how mad paul was.
it is not microscopic.
I teach receive the gift of grace in faith. come to God in a bankrupt, totally helpless human who understand the plight he is in, they do not, they say come to god as the one who is working and earning it, they do not even see how helpless they are, because they are focusing on works, not grace.
they teach earn the gift of grace by doing some works (they can not even get together on what works are required, or how good is good enough)
there is a huge gulf between our belief system, it is not even close.
Paul had to deal with lot of them on his journeyes, even many of them (or jews in general) came to believe in Christ, but still wanted to add works to their own salvation, it comes with the same mindset. I have to please God or he will not save me, so I have to do these works. or I have no hope.
missing the point?
there is one gospel. not two or three, one. And is not getting in the thing we all fight for (think about it, if you do not get in, your get a ticket to hell. that should make it our most important point)
and no it is not just a few little things we are off on, and even if it was, again I refer you to galations 1 and what it means to preach a different gospel. and how mad paul was.
it is not microscopic.
I teach receive the gift of grace in faith. come to God in a bankrupt, totally helpless human who understand the plight he is in, they do not, they say come to god as the one who is working and earning it, they do not even see how helpless they are, because they are focusing on works, not grace.
they teach earn the gift of grace by doing some works (they can not even get together on what works are required, or how good is good enough)
there is a huge gulf between our belief system, it is not even close.
the sale of indulgences is an historical fact of the church, and it is indeed ugly, and it happened because the papacy teaches, contrary to scripture, that our justification before God is through human sacraments and works.
in that respect, it is in context in the conversation, and with regard to a person being unable to perform any certain work, another subcontext you probably aren't aware of is that in the past i've asked some in this conversation whether a man somehow isolated from society, having nothing but the Word of God, is able to be saved, and they've flatly replied "no" - that a man who by any twist of fate is unable to be water baptized is forever condemned, no matter what faith he has, and a man who cannot for any reason approach someone he's sinned against and himself physically atone for his past wrongs is hopelessly lost, the atonement of Jesus on the cross notwithstanding.
my point is that salvation is not of ourselves; it is the gift of God by grace, through faith, working through love.
Christ has plainly said that the one who believes and comes to Him, He will not cast out. i dare not contradict Him.
His grace is imputed to us, not earned by us - that's clear in the scripture, but not clear in our discussion.
we should do righteousness. we must do righteousness. we are redeemed to do righteousness. if we reject righteousness we are rejecting the very light that is our hope. but no amount of our own righteousness is sufficient - the only thing that is sufficient is God's grace in our weakness. it's not by righteousness that we are saved.
presenting our duty and preordination to righteousness as the mechanism of our justification and salvation is not the gospel that i read, heard and believed.
we should "walk as wise, not unwise" because we are saved, not in order to be saved. our sacrifices are free-will gifts offered in gratitude and love, not atoning rituals offered out of guilt and fear. atonement has been made by our savior, once and for all!!
if Paul had been preaching that works of righteousness or merit or w/e were the key to our justification and salvation, why would he ever have needed to counter the argument "shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound" ??
this accusation made of the believers could only have been made with the understanding that the grace of God, through faith and confession of that faith before men, is sufficient to save.
this is the gospel - that we who believe and confess, we are saved. we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies by the imputation of His righteousness and regenerated by the continual working of the Holy Spirit, the seal of our redemption.
we need to realize that and therefore walk in a way worthy of that truth, and live in a way that reflects the new life we have been given.
is the gospel being perverted? yes! are some thinking and saying we have no reason to turn away from sin? yes! is the way to destroy that lie by teaching we earn our salvation? no!
am i saying there is no reason to do righteousness? God forbid! but the reason is love, wisdom and gratitude, not terror. you want to see works so you, too, can approve every sheep? the thief on the cross had "works" - he believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth, and the Lord approved his faith.
in every way, Christ must be glorified in us.
if we glory in ourselves, and deny the sufficiency of Christ's finished work, we shame and reject the cross.
and that, brother, that is ugly too.
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