I think the issue is that the Bible teaches that works do not save, and that without faith, righteous works are not possible.
Both Paul and James say obedient works justify>saves, James 2:24; Rom 6:17,18.
It takes faith + works [a faithful obedience] to save for faith without works is dead and cannot save.
SolidGround said:
In saying "faith alone" saves, one is not excluding the works from being an absolute product, but designating the purpose of each.
But this is a contradiction for one cannot argue "faith alone" saves but that does not exclude works.
If faith alone does not exclude works then it is no longer "faith alone" but faith AND works.
SolidGround said:
Faith saves, and works prove whether the faith is genuine.
So one
MUST have works to prove the faith is genuine. So that makes works
NECESSARY / ESSENTIAL to having a genuine faith....which makes the works as necessary as the faith in being saved.
In other words, you have made it impossible to have a genuine faith WITHOUT works.
SolidGround said:
A person who claims to have faith, and then goes about acting faithlessly, is displaying their faithlessness.
SO one MUST have works to prove they have faith. Again, this makes the works as necessary as the faith.
SolidGround said:
The only reason we continue to speak against your "faith + works" argument is that the works are not a part of what saves, but a product.
But you just made works a NECESSITY to have a genuine faith. So you have made having a genuine faith IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT works so you have a faith + works theology.
SolidGround said:
Your doctrine has led the Catholic Church astray, along with many other religious sects, because it places the burden back on the shoulders of men to save ourselves. That was the Old Covenant. We failed that one. So God made a New and better Covenant, where the burden of salvation rests on Christ alone.
1) I am not Catholic, they lead themselves astray.
2) the bible clearly teaches man has a role in his own salvation:
Acts 2:40 save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
1 Pet 1:22 you have purified you own souls
2 Tim 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself
Phil 2:12 work out your own salvation
James 4:8
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded
2 Cor 7:1 "
let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit
Man cannot save himself by himself but man saves himself in the sense of obeying what Christ has said to do. For example, Christ commanded man to repent and be baptized, Acts 2:38 So if a man repents and is baptized then he is in that sense saving himself by obeying what Christ said but if he does not repent and be baptized then he is 'losing himself'.
SolidGround said:
Just as shadows prove that there is sunshine, so our works prove that we have faith.
Shadows do not produce light. The sunshine does. But each are present in the equation.
Again you are making works necessary for one to have faith.
So if one needs faith to be saved...
...and one needs works to prove the faith....
..then that means one
MUST have both faith
and works to be saved for without the works there is no "genuine faith" and therefore no salvation.
SolidGround said:
It is NOT contradictory to say that faith alone saves, and also say that works will be present in a saved person's life. Logic is not the only thing you are denying, but also the weight of Scripture.
The Gospel is not works. Our growth in Christ involves obedient works, among other things such as knowledge and prayer. If a person is not growing, then they are not drawing from the Vine.
But is is contradictory to say one must have faith alone to be saved, but one must also have works to prove he has faith.
If faith alone saves then one NEVER needs to do ANY works.
A question I have asked many times:
If faith alone saves, then can one NOT do any works at all and just let his faith alone save him?
If you truly think faith alone saves them you must answer this question with a "yes" right?
But if you answer "YES" then you are saying works are
NOT needed that proves the faith to be genuine, refuting you own position that "
works prove whether the faith is genuine"
Faith onlyists are trying to be one both sides of the fence at the same time. On one hand that want faith only to saved yet they then bring in works saying works are necessary to prove the faith. Cannot have it both ways for when works are added it is no longer "faith only" but
faith AND works.
The only argument faith onlyist have is that a man can be saved by faith only and
NEVER do any works....but this is not biblically possible.
SolidGround said:
Let's try and cut to the heart of the issue here.
The only reasons to call for faith+works is if you truly believe that the Spirit cannot do the work that Christ said He would,
or a sect has a set of specific works that it clings to, and desires to exclude all other denominations from salvation as a way of radicalizing it's adherents.
Most protestant and evangelical denominations adhere to water baptism. So what other specific works or ceremonies do you claim that they do not adhere to, that their faith would be proven dead or false?
There must be something specific that you are actually supporting or opposing, or else you would not be going through the verbal gymnastics to prove your point.
The Holy Spirit has already done His part in mans' salvation by giving man God's written word that instructs man how to be saved and those instructions require man to believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:23,33; Mk 16:16.
So the bottom line here is you have said man must have a genuine faith to be saved, but he must have works to prove that he has a genuine, saving faith for without those works he does not have a genuine faith that saves. Thereby you have made works a necessity to having a genuine faith which is necessary to being saved and have made works as neecsary to salvation as faith
1) Works > necessary to prove genuine faith
2) Genuine faith > necessary to be saved
3) logical conclusion is works are necessary to be saved for lack of works prove lack of a genuine faith.