Simple Question...No Simple Answer

[posthuman]

God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

You are suggesting that God created people for the sole purpose of burning in hell. What kind of God is that, why preach the Gospel if it has been preordained who will be saved and who will not. It makes no since, I meant why spend the billions of dollars to preach the Gospel if it is already ordained. Why would Jesus say to the disciples preach the gospel to the ends of the Earth. I meant why?

You are arguing against Paul, not me.
That whole post is a passage of Scripture and nothing more.

'tis true and Paul answers that argument too -- see chapter 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

the answer is that God has ordained it so, that the wheat should grow among the tares, so His grace and His justice are known by His judgement.

He hasn't told us which ground is fertile or where the rain will fall. He just told us to plant, and water, and that the good and the bad would be known by it's fruit.

 

[newbirth]

'tis true and Paul answers that argument too -- see chapter 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

the answer is that God has ordained it so, that the wheat should grow among the tares, so His grace and His justice are known by His judgement.

He hasn't told us which ground is fertile or where the rain will fall. He just told us to plant, and water, and that the good and the bad would be known by it's fruit.

Jesus came to call sinners to repentance.....God concluded all under sin ....So Christ is calling all men to repentance ...not all will repent.....but all will be without excuse once the gospel is preached throughout the earth...If God only chose some and he knows whom he chose ...why would he send the gospel to all

 

[SolidGround]

Jesus came to call sinners to repentance.....God concluded all under sin ....So Christ is calling all men to repentance ...not all will repent.....but all will be without excuse once the gospel is preached throughout the earth...If God only chose some and he knows whom he chose ...why would he send the gospel to all

So that no one can claim that they never were told that God is real and active and loving.
If men were guilty unto damnation before, can it get any worse?

The issue you are having is that you seem to think people don't deserve hell; as if people have to reject the Gospel to go to hell.
People deserve hell because of their actions, not because they reject the Gospel,
although, rejecting the Gospel secures their fate.

If you really are getting hung up on this topic, just read what Jesus says in John 6.
Read it a few times. He is very clear.

Have faith in the Word, and less in your own logic. God is certainly mysterious, but we know He is good.

 

[newbirth]

Why do you think we disagree on man being responsible for his own sins? That is agreed. Man is 100% responsible.
We all deserve hell, because we chose to follow our own sinful desires, and rejected God.

Was Christ's death just a second chance for us to be perfect?

If it was merely a second chance, then we have all failed that too, and according to Hebrews, once salvation is lost it can not be regained because Christ will not be crucified all over again.

What is salvation?

Christ taking RESPONSIBILITY for our sin (for our wrong choice)!

He chose us as individuals to be His Bride, because He loves us.
Man is 100% responsible for their sin. God is 100% responsible for salvation.

Does this make God unjust or unloving? No.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called

I guess you did not see God concluded all under sin....
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

notice he did not say ...shall all be made righteous....all men are offered life not all will accept

 

[newbirth]

So that no one can claim that they never were told that God is real and active and loving.
If men were guilty unto damnation before, can it get any worse?

The issue you are having is that you seem to think people don't deserve hell; as if people have to reject the Gospel to go to hell.
People deserve hell because of their actions, not because they reject the Gospel,
although, rejecting the Gospel secures their fate.

If you really are getting hung up on this topic, just read what Jesus says in John 6.
Read it a few times. He is very clear.

Have faith in the Word, and less in your own logic. God is certainly mysterious, but we know He is good.

yes we all deserve hell God concluded all under sin and offered his Son as a ransom for us that we might not go to hell...so anyone who rejects his Son ends up in hell ...but as many as received him to them gave power to become Sons of God....
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Brother_Don]

Romans 2:13, ( For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. James 1:22, But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[newbirth]

If you believe, then you were chosen. All those chosen are called, and His sheep know His voice, and respond.
No one comes who is not called.

and everyone is given the opportunity to believe...
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[SeaBass]

I think the issue is that the Bible teaches that works do not save, and that without faith, righteous works are not possible.

Both Paul and James say obedient works justify>saves, James 2:24; Rom 6:17,18.

It takes faith + works [a faithful obedience] to save for faith without works is dead and cannot save.

In saying "faith alone" saves, one is not excluding the works from being an absolute product, but designating the purpose of each.

But this is a contradiction for one cannot argue "faith alone" saves but that does not exclude works.

If faith alone does not exclude works then it is no longer "faith alone" but faith AND works.

Faith saves, and works prove whether the faith is genuine.

So one MUST have works to prove the faith is genuine. So that makes works NECESSARY / ESSENTIAL to having a genuine faith....which makes the works as necessary as the faith in being saved.

In other words, you have made it impossible to have a genuine faith WITHOUT works.

A person who claims to have faith, and then goes about acting faithlessly, is displaying their faithlessness.

SO one MUST have works to prove they have faith. Again, this makes the works as necessary as the faith.

The only reason we continue to speak against your "faith + works" argument is that the works are not a part of what saves, but a product.

But you just made works a NECESSITY to have a genuine faith. So you have made having a genuine faith IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT works so you have a faith + works theology.

Your doctrine has led the Catholic Church astray, along with many other religious sects, because it places the burden back on the shoulders of men to save ourselves. That was the Old Covenant. We failed that one. So God made a New and better Covenant, where the burden of salvation rests on Christ alone.

1) I am not Catholic, they lead themselves astray.

2) the bible clearly teaches man has a role in his own salvation:
Acts 2:40 save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
1 Pet 1:22 you have purified you own souls
2 Tim 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself
Phil 2:12 work out your own salvation
James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded
2 Cor 7:1 " let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit

Man cannot save himself by himself but man saves himself in the sense of obeying what Christ has said to do. For example, Christ commanded man to repent and be baptized, Acts 2:38 So if a man repents and is baptized then he is in that sense saving himself by obeying what Christ said but if he does not repent and be baptized then he is 'losing himself'.

Just as shadows prove that there is sunshine, so our works prove that we have faith.
Shadows do not produce light. The sunshine does. But each are present in the equation.

Again you are making works necessary for one to have faith.

So if one needs faith to be saved...
...and one needs works to prove the faith....
..then that means one MUST have both faith and works to be saved for without the works there is no "genuine faith" and therefore no salvation.

It is NOT contradictory to say that faith alone saves, and also say that works will be present in a saved person's life. Logic is not the only thing you are denying, but also the weight of Scripture.
The Gospel is not works. Our growth in Christ involves obedient works, among other things such as knowledge and prayer. If a person is not growing, then they are not drawing from the Vine.

But is is contradictory to say one must have faith alone to be saved, but one must also have works to prove he has faith.

If faith alone saves then one NEVER needs to do ANY works.

A question I have asked many times:

If faith alone saves, then can one NOT do any works at all and just let his faith alone save him?

If you truly think faith alone saves them you must answer this question with a "yes" right?


But if you answer "YES" then you are saying works are NOT needed that proves the faith to be genuine, refuting you own position that "works prove whether the faith is genuine"

Faith onlyists are trying to be one both sides of the fence at the same time. On one hand that want faith only to saved yet they then bring in works saying works are necessary to prove the faith. Cannot have it both ways for when works are added it is no longer "faith only" but faith AND works.

The only argument faith onlyist have is that a man can be saved by faith only and NEVER do any works....but this is not biblically possible.

Let's try and cut to the heart of the issue here.
The only reasons to call for faith+works is if you truly believe that the Spirit cannot do the work that Christ said He would,
or a sect has a set of specific works that it clings to, and desires to exclude all other denominations from salvation as a way of radicalizing it's adherents.

Most protestant and evangelical denominations adhere to water baptism. So what other specific works or ceremonies do you claim that they do not adhere to, that their faith would be proven dead or false?
There must be something specific that you are actually supporting or opposing, or else you would not be going through the verbal gymnastics to prove your point.

The Holy Spirit has already done His part in mans' salvation by giving man God's written word that instructs man how to be saved and those instructions require man to believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:23,33; Mk 16:16.


So the bottom line here is you have said man must have a genuine faith to be saved, but he must have works to prove that he has a genuine, saving faith for without those works he does not have a genuine faith that saves. Thereby you have made works a necessity to having a genuine faith which is necessary to being saved and have made works as neecsary to salvation as faith


1) Works > necessary to prove genuine faith
2) Genuine faith > necessary to be saved

3) logical conclusion is works are necessary to be saved for lack of works prove lack of a genuine faith.

 

[SeaBass]

It is true that some evil men twist good doctrine, saying that a person can live however they please after they have confessed Christ.
This distortion makes grace become a license to sin, and that our freedom in Christ is to live for ourselves.

These doctrines of lasciviousness have been around since the beginning, and are obvious in their falsehood.

Do not confuse "faith alone" for:
"I can live however I want because I said the sinner's prayer",
or "God will forgive me for this thing I'm about to do, because I'm His child",
or "There is no condemnation for those in Christ, so I can sin and face no consequences!"
^ EVIL NONSENSE

Faith alone if true, means one would NEVER EVER have to do ANY works to be saved for he is saved by FAITH ALONE/no works.

So why do faith onlyist keeping adding works saying faith must produce works when faith only says it does not?

 

[SeaBass]

In the spirit faith only saves because GOD is a SPIRIT and must be worshiped in spirit and truth and if a person were to get saved and die before they had a chance to do good works that could be seen by men they would be saved because GOD knows their thoughts and intentions

and if that person got truly saved and remained alive and still on this earth in their body they would be obedient and do good works and men would see physically with their eyes these good works.

Romans 4:1-2
king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.)[/SUP]What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?[SUP]
2.)[/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

SO one does not have to do obedient works in doing God's will to be saved? One can remain disobedient and rebel against God's will and God will save him anyway?

 

[posthuman]

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved.
(Romans 10:9)

SO one does not have to do obedient works in doing God's will to be saved? One can remain disobedient and rebel against God's will and God will save him anyway?

what do you think these two words mean:

"Lord"
"believe"

?

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
​

(Romans 4:4-8)

do you believe this? is God's mercy bought with a bribe? or is the price He has set paid?

 

[SeaBass]

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved.
(Romans 10:9)



what do you think these two words mean:

"Lord"
"believe"

?

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
​

(Romans 4:4-8)

do you believe this? is God's mercy bought with a bribe? or is the price He has set paid?

If faith only/belief only saves then one would not have to confess Christ to be saved for if he also confessed Christ that then would be belief + confession and not belief only.

 

[Elin]

Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone.

YCFS.

A contradicting statement for faith cannot be both alone and not alone at the same time.

So one is saved by (1) faith alone with NEVER doing any works
Or one is saved by (2) faith + works.

Cannot have both 1 and 2 happening at the same time, it must be one or the other.

Didn't say it was at the same time.

YCFS.

 

[Elin]

where is the verse that says....
Genuine faith will produce good works that men can see.

Have you read James?

 

[purpose]

James 2:14-26 says it all!

 

[Elin]

It is true that some evil men twist good doctrine, saying that a person can live however they please after they have confessed Christ.
This distortion makes grace become a license to sin, and that our freedom in Christ is to live for ourselves.

This argument is addressed by Paul because it was first made against him by the Judaizers.

These doctrines of lasciviousness have been around since the beginning, and are obvious in their falsehood.

Do not confuse "faith alone" for:
"I can live however I want because I said the sinner's prayer",
or "God will forgive me for this thing I'm about to do, because I'm His child",
or "There is no condemnation for those in Christ, so I can sin and face no consequences!"
^ EVIL NONSENSE

 

[posthuman]

If faith only/belief only saves then one would not have to confess Christ to be saved for if he also confessed Christ that then would be belief + confession and not belief only.

do you believe this?

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
​

(Romans 4:4-8)

 

[Lynn68]

I think of Luke 23:39-43. 39 One of the criminals hanging beside Him scoffed, "So you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-and us, too, while you're at it!" 40 But the other criminal protested, "Don't you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn't done anything wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." 43 And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
This shows that our deeds don't save us-our faith in Christ does. When we realize that we are sinners, repent, and accept Jesus into our hearts, then we gain desire to do good works.

 

[Markum1972]

I think of Luke 23:39-43. 39 One of the criminals hanging beside Him scoffed, "So you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-and us, too, while you're at it!" 40 But the other criminal protested, "Don't you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn't done anything wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." 43 And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
This shows that our deeds don't save us-our faith in Christ does. When we realize that we are sinners, repent, and accept Jesus into our hearts, then we gain desire to do good works.

Even this example shows that faith produces works.

The one man mocked Jesus; the other called out to him. Those are works (deeds). One was done of the lust of the flesh and the other was done of faith.

It seems that this thread is more directed to whether you can be saved by performing works (good deeds) without faith. I think that is an obvious no. Does your faith produce good works? Absolutely! It is the fruit of the Spirit of God working through men.

When the woman with the issue of blood reached out and touched the hem of Jesus' garment (deed/work done by faith), Jesus turned to her and said "YOUR faith has made you well".

Yet many sit with sickness and disease saying it must not be God's will to heal them otherwise he would have just done it. What? Did we learn nothing from the woman that acted on faith? Have we learned nothing from those that came before that acted on faith? Why are we teaching that God will do as he wills and if it has not happened, then it is not his will? Has God not clearly stated his will? Why then do we sit and wonder at these things?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

this is it, right here -- our works justify us before men, but not before God. our faith justifies us before God, who judges the heart.

to be justified before Newbirth, we have to do works. but Newbirth doesn't save us. Christ does, and what He asks is that we believe Him, trust Him, and love Him.

if we follow Christ's commands, we will also be justified before men, but it won't be of ourselves, but of the new life God is faithful to create in us. James isn't disagreeing with Paul. he's telling us how to walk wisely, so we will be above the reproach of men.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to posthuman again.