Baptism symbol only ?

[Hoffco]

???? to posthuman, you are a joke, confused, at best. ??? You praise me for saying REPENT ,TRUST and OBEY for salvation. Then, You condemn me for preaching the TRUE message of GOD.>??? Do we not have a responsibility before God to reprove those who corrupt the Gospel according to godliness?. I think so! Therefore stand true to God and don't condemn me, His servant. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.


Do we have to obey this command to be in a saved state in order to have salvation, eternal life ?

 

[VCO]

Jesus said to "work"... "for the food that endures to eternal life" Jh.6:27, That is a VERB. Paul said "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" Phil.2:12, that is a VERB. SORRY, newbirth, you don't read eng. so well. That is not a noun, in those verses, please STOP pulling the wool over our eyes, You are twisting the plain words of scripture. If I don't "WORK" for my salvation, I don't get IT. According to Rom. 6:22, and Rom.2:4-13 and Jh,3: 21, etc. etc., eternal life will be for those who are born again of God and do good works; Repent, trust and obey is the message for our salvation. Love Hoffco

Now look who is spewing false Doctrine. WRONG, if you think you are Working for your Salvation, YOU DO NOT GET THE GIFT OF SALVATION.

2 Corinthians 5:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Therefore, whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to be pleasing to Him. {Motive is NOT earn Salvation, but to show our LOVE for HIM.}\

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, {with the motive being to earn Salvation it is} pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work {to earn his Salvation, but to show his LOVE for GOD} , but believes on Him {putting his whole TRUST in Jesus Christ ONLY for His Salvation} who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

Romans 6:23 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


A GIFT CANNOT BE EARNED, IT CAN ONLY BE RECEIVED. THE MINUTE YOU TRY TO EARN IT, YOU CEASE TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR IT.

 

[posthuman]

???? to posthuman, you are a joke, confused, at best. ??? You praise me for saying REPENT ,TRUST and OBEY for salvation. Then, You condemn me for preaching the TRUE message of GOD.>??? Do we not have a responsibility before God to reprove those who corrupt the Gospel according to godliness?. I think so! Therefore stand true to God and don't condemn me, His servant. Love to all, Hoffco

brother, if we agree in the Lord, it's the Lord we praise, not each other.
when i said it's not our place to judge each other's souls, i meant it's not my place, it's not VCO's place, it's not newbirth's place, it's not your place, it's not any of our place - all judgement has been given to Jesus Christ. it's not me or you or any one else i mean to condemn, but to condemn haughtiness in general, which is something every one of has in some part; something that will be tried and burned out of us with fire.
in that all judgement belongs to Christ, i think i am standing true to God.
in that our salvation is by the mercy of God, not our works or merit, i think i am standing true to God.
in that notwithstanding the grace that we are redeemed with, we are called to repentance and obedience, i think i am also standing true to God.

all through this thread and every other i hope i've stood true to God as well, insisting that all glory belongs to Him. that has honestly been my intention throughout - though i'm sure i have failed to keep it perfectly in my own pride and lack of wisdom - to keep us mindful of where praise belongs and to whom every thanks is due.

sorry if i spoke out of place. i haven't been keeping up with this conversation much anymore; it doesn't seem to go anywhere.

 

[newbirth]

respectfully, i'd like to hear anyone explain how it is Paul thought it possible that an unrepentant, disobedient man's spirit might be saved on the day of judgement.

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
(1 Corinthians 5:5)

surely we are called to obedience. surely the Lord wishes us to repent from our sin.
but how to understand this? we should not ignore it.
surely it's God's mercy, not our deserving, that works salvation.

perhaps it is just not our place to sit in judgement of one another's ultimate salvation

how many people do you think that throne seats? i thought, One.

Paul passed judgement on the flesh and not on the spirit...that is up to the person and God... I could be wrong but I think Paul was saying ex communicate him that he might repent and be restored...that was a matter of open adultery in the church and had to be dealt with but no one seemed to be doing anything about it...

1 Corinthians 5:9-12King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

 

[newbirth]

Jesus said to "work"... "for the food that endures to eternal life" Jh.6:27, That is a VERB. Paul said "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" Phil.2:12, that is a VERB. SORRY, newbirth, you don't read eng. so well. That is not a noun, in those verses, please STOP pulling the wool over our eyes, You are twisting the plain words of scripture. If I don't "WORK" for my salvation, I don't get IT. According to Rom. 6:22, and Rom.2:4-13 and Jh,3: 21, etc. etc., eternal life will be for those who are born again of God and do good works; Repent, trust and obey is the message for our salvation. Love Hoffco

Bro I never gave any English lessons ...that was VCO's confusion of nouns and verbs look at my posts I post scripture not pull wool...

 

[newbirth]

brother, if we agree in the Lord, it's the Lord we praise, not each other.
when i said it's not our place to judge each other's souls, i meant it's not my place, it's not VCO's place, it's not newbirth's place, it's not your place, it's not any of our place - all judgement has been given to Jesus Christ. it's not me or you or any one else i mean to condemn, but to condemn haughtiness in general, which is something every one of has in some part; something that will be tried and burned out of us with fire.
in that all judgement belongs to Christ, i think i am standing true to God.
in that our salvation is by the mercy of God, not our works or merit, i think i am standing true to God.
in that notwithstanding the grace that we are redeemed with, we are called to repentance and obedience, i think i am also standing true to God.

all through this thread and every other i hope i've stood true to God as well, insisting that all glory belongs to Him. that has honestly been my intention throughout - though i'm sure i have failed to keep it perfectly in my own pride and lack of wisdom - to keep us mindful of where praise belongs and to whom every thanks is due.

sorry if i spoke out of place. i haven't been keeping up with this conversation much anymore; it doesn't seem to go anywhere.

If I call myself a Christian I count it worthy to be judged by a brother in truthfulness of the word....let me be judged by a brother in error that I might find mercy... than to fall in the hands of the ungodly

 

[VCO]

VCO. I want to hear you say, We must Repent, Trust and Obey Jesus to be saved. IF you can not say that, you are preaching a FALSE sal. message. Love Hoffco

HOFFCO, you are not reading the verses I post.

Confession and Repentance are ALWAYS part of GENUINELY BELIEVING.

SALVATION is a WORK OF GOD, not a WORK OF MAN.

Those who ARE genuinely SAVED the moment they BELIEVE,

WILL WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO THE LORD BECAUSE THEY WERE SAVED,
thus having the LOVE OF GOD poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit, Rom. 5:5.

THAT LOVE OF GOD and the Presence of the HOLY SPIRIT, will produce a mighty harvest:

We Will Confess and REPENT because of IT.

We Will Faithfully BELIEVE GOD because of IT.

We Will LOVE GOD because of IT.

We Will surrender and receive CHRIST as LORD, meaning MASTER because of IT.

We Will Walk in Obedience Because of IT.

We Will be filled with Joy because IT.

We Will Serve HIM because of IT.

We Will Witness to others because of IT.

ETC.

NO, you do not EARN ONE IOTA of your SALVATION, HE DID IT ALL.


Romans 5:10 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Stop patting yourself on the back and GIVE HIM THE GLORY,

 

[VCO]

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.


Do we have to obey this command to be in a saved state in order to have salvation, eternal life ?

WOW, you missed it too. THOSE WHO HAVE SALVATION WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. THOSE WHO WILL NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, PROVE BY THE DISOBEDIENCE THAT THEY NEVER WERE SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

 

[VCO]

Ephesians 1:4King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Ephesians 1:4Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,


Ephesians 1:4The Message (MSG)
The God of Glory

[SUP]3-6 [/SUP]How blessed is God! And what a blessing he is! He’s the Father of our Master, Jesus Christ, and takes us to the high places of blessing in him. Long before he laid down earth’s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love. Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.


Ephesians 1:4American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:


Ephesians 1:4GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Before the creation of the world, he chose us through Christ to be holy and perfect in his presence.



Revelation 13:7-8King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 13:7-8Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;


Revelation 13:7-8The Message (MSG)
[SUP]5-8 [/SUP]The Beast had a loud mouth, boastful and blasphemous. It could do anything it wanted for forty-two months. It yelled blasphemies against God, blasphemed his Name, blasphemed his Church, especially those already dwelling with God in Heaven. It was permitted to make war on God’s holy people and conquer them. It held absolute sway over all tribes and peoples, tongues and races. Everyone on earth whose name was not written from the world’s foundation in the slaughtered Lamb’s Book of Life will worship the Beast.


Revelation 13:7-8GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Everyone living on earth will worship it, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life. That book belongs to the lamb who was slaughtered before the creation of the world.





notice you look for a translation that suit your doctrine




Ephesians 1:5-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:5-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Ephesians 1:5-6Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,


Ephesians 1:5-6The Message (MSG)
The God of Glory

[SUP]3-6 [/SUP]How blessed is God! And what a blessing he is! He’s the Father of our Master, Jesus Christ, and takes us to the high places of blessing in him. Long before he laid down earth’s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love. Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.


Ephesians 1:5-6American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Belove
Ephesians 1:5-6GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Because of his love he had already decided to adopt us through Jesus Christ. He freely chose to do this [SUP]6 [/SUP]so that the kindness[SUP][a][/SUP] he had given us in his dear Son would be praised and given glory.



they are both scripture so you have to find the common ground they both be true....

Then find the common ground in this:

Isaiah 46:9-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, Who are far from righteousness:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger. And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israel My glory.

Do we tend to forget, just how much in Control God really is?

YES, HE gave us freedom to CHOOSE. GOD must be Glorified, and there IS NO GLORY in turning us into biological programmed robots.

The Bottom Line, is I GIVE GOD THE GLORY for ALL THINGS, especially my SALVATION. You seem to want to rob GOD of some of the Glory for your Salvation, taking it unto yourself. Please correct me, if my observations are wrong.

 

[newbirth]

WOW, you missed it too. THOSE WHO HAVE SALVATION WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. THOSE WHO WILL NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, PROVE BY THE DISOBEDIENCE THAT THEY NEVER WERE SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

'if' denotes choice........this says you don't have a choice.... THOSE WHO HAVE SALVATION WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS

keeping his commands shows your love for him.....your understanding is...if you love him your love will make you keep his commandments....love forces no one...
This is what love looks like....
1 Corinthians 13 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
13 If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.


This is how we learn to love...please notice the order of things to add to your faith

2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoffco]

You are getting closer, but some of you hate election, If you say, God chose me because He saw my good works, so he chose me, that is sal. by works. If election is unconditional, then sal is only by grace. But still we are told we will "reap eternal life " , only if we "sow to the Spirit', Gal 6:7-10 . Yes, sal does ,humanly speaking, depends upon our obedience. By GRACE, thru FAITH unto WORKS. No works ,no faith=no GRACE! Love Hoffco

 

[newbirth]

Then find the common ground in this:

Isaiah 46:9-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, Who are far from righteousness:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger. And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israel My glory.

Do we tend to forget, just how much in Control God really is?

YES, HE gave us freedom to CHOOSE. GOD must be Glorified, and there IS NO GLORY in turning us into biological programmed robots.

The Bottom Line, is I GIVE GOD THE GLORY for ALL THINGS, especially my SALVATION. You seem to want to rob GOD of some of the Glory for your Salvation, taking it unto yourself. Please correct me, if my observations are wrong.

if you charge me of wanting to rob God...please show me how...I am what I am by the grace of God....I know this because He gave me power to say no to the things that had me in bondage.....I know what it is to suffer in the flesh to cease from sin...and I say ......even though He slay me yet will I serve him......my life is in his hands...
Matthew 5:16

American Standard Version
Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

 

[newbirth]

You are getting closer, but some of you hate election, If you say, God chose me because He saw my good works, so he chose me, that is sal. by works. If election is unconditional, then sal is only by grace. But still we are told we will "reap eternal life " , only if we "sow to the Spirit', Gal 6:7-10 . Yes, sal does ,humanly speaking, depends upon our obedience. By GRACE, thru FAITH unto WORKS. No works ,no faith=no GRACE! Love Hoffco

thru faith with works ...faith without works is dead...everything is good except you cannot separate faith from works...
Romans 1:5
Young's Literal Translation
through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;

 

[posthuman]

If I call myself a Christian I count it worthy to be judged by a brother in truthfulness of the word....let me be judged by a brother in error that I might find mercy... than to fall in the hands of the ungodly

well there's "judging" and there's "judging"

some wag said "i'm not your judge, but i am a fruit inspector"

i get all uncomfortable-like when we start calling out hellfire and eternal damnation on each other, as though we have the authority or knowledge to do that. i know, Christ told the apostles that what they forgave would be forgiven - but ultimately salvation is in the hands of God.

i'm not your enemy, nb, even though we fuss at each other a lot. you believe in the risen Christ; i believe in the risen Christ -- we're both headed to be with Him eternally, so we really ought to be able to get along with each other on earth. i mean, here's a 53-page long "discussion" about baptism we're having, but we've both been baptized, and we both say every believer must be baptized .. fundamentally we agree about so much, i don't think it's my place to ever say "you're not saved"

you know? at the end of the day we ought to be side by side serving in the same soup kitchen. we shouldn't let our different understandings of the mysteries of God turn brothers into enemies. God will show us all the truth of it in His own time, when everything is revealed.

 

[Hoffco]

thru faith with works ...faith without works is dead...everything is good except you cannot separate faith from works...
Romans 1:5
Young's Literal Translation
through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;

Ok, I see what you are saying, BUT, to me,it makes no difference; BUT, I will add the faith with works. SO, If God looked ahead into time ,and saw ,that I was going to have FAITH and good works, God would be electing me because of my foreseen faith and works, which STILL, makes sal. based on my faith and good works, not on GOD's GRACE alone; BUT, AS the Bible teaches. Electing LOVE of God is totally un conditional. But the provisional Love of God is conditional upon repentance, faith and works. Jh. 3:21 but "those who do the good deeds come to the light" which shows ' their deeds are done in God''IE; done in God's New Birth, which gave us the willingness and power to repent, trust and obey Jesus. love to all, Hoffco

 

[newbirth]

Ok, I see what you are saying, BUT, to me,it makes no difference; BUT, I will add the faith with works. SO, If God looked ahead into time ,and saw ,that I was going to have FAITH and good works, God would be electing me because of my foreseen faith and works, which STILL, makes sal. based on my faith and good works, not on GOD's GRACE alone; BUT, AS the Bible teaches. Electing LOVE of God is totally un conditional. But the provisional Love of God is conditional upon repentance, faith and works. Jh. 3:21 but "those who do the good deeds come to the light" which shows ' their deeds are done in God''IE; done in God's New Birth, which gave us the willingness and power to repent, trust and obey Jesus. love to all, Hoffco

more like what the scripture is saying....and we all say the same thing.....and God gets the glory....Just love how you put it..."those who do the good deeds come to the light" which shows ' their deeds are done in God''IE; done in God's New Birth, which gave us the willingness and power to repent, trust and obey Jesus......I think I was missing this part... their deeds are done in God

 

[VCO]

'if' denotes choice........this says you don't have a choice.... THOSE WHO HAVE SALVATION WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS

keeping his commands shows your love for him.....your understanding is...if you love him your love will make you keep his commandments....love forces no one...
This is what love looks like....
1 Corinthians 13 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
13 If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.


This is how we learn to love...please notice the order of things to add to your faith

2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

There you go, assuming your presuppositions about what I believe are what I believe and NOT WHAT I SAY. LOSE THOSE PRESUPPOSITIONS, and you will find we are in agreement a LOT more often than you think. Whoever taught you those false beliefs about what we teach and believe, REALLY cannot tell a LIE from a HOLE IN THE GROUND.

LOVE never forces you to obey, that would not be LOVE, now would it? GENUINE AGAPE LOVE comes FROM GOD. "WILL KEEP" never is I have to obey, IT IS ALWAYS "I WANT TO OBEY", because of the AGAPE LOVE that GOD poured into me.

 

[VCO]

Ok, I see what you are saying, BUT, to me,it makes no difference; BUT, I will add the faith with works. SO, If God looked ahead into time ,and saw ,that I was going to have FAITH and good works, God would be electing me because of my foreseen faith and works, which STILL, makes sal. based on my faith and good works, not on GOD's GRACE alone; BUT, AS the Bible teaches. Electing LOVE of God is totally un conditional. But the provisional Love of God is conditional upon repentance, faith and works. Jh. 3:21 but "those who do the good deeds come to the light" which shows ' their deeds are done in God''IE; done in God's New Birth, which gave us the willingness and power to repent, trust and obey Jesus. love to all, Hoffco

Hold on to your hat, because this post may blow your mind. You are very close with the concept that GOD looked ahead in time. CLOSE, but you forgot ONE Detail.

GOD is not a created being TRAVELING THROUGH TIME. TIME as we know it is something GOD created for us finite created beings to dwell in.

GOD called Himself "the I AM", not "the I was, I am, and I will be". GOD is Omnipresent, and yes that means present in every cubic inch at the same time, BUT it also means PRESENT IN EVERY SECOND OF TIME AT THE SAME TIME. HENCE, "the I AM" is the perfect NAME for HIM. He declares the END from the Beginning, because HE is Omnipresent in both. HE writes our Names in the Book of Life before the Foundation of the World, because He is Omnipresent in the Beginning, and at every conversion, and the End. HE Predestines and gives us Free Will Choice, because HE is Omnipresent in ALL TIME. HE CHOSE THOSE, who ARE Choosing HIM, because HE is Omnipresent in ALL TIME.

GOD DOES NOT FIT IN THE BOX WE CALL TIME.

 

[kennethcadwell]

WOW, you missed it too. THOSE WHO HAVE SALVATION WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. THOSE WHO WILL NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, PROVE BY THE DISOBEDIENCE THAT THEY NEVER WERE SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

I did not miss nothing, all I asked was a question that can be given a simple yes or no answer.
People want to keep putting salvation, or saved before obedience which can not be so. Because you have to obey the command to repent of your sins before you are saved. Jesus makes it clear that you will still perish if you don't repent of your sins. ( Luke 13:3 ).
The forgiving of sins and confessing Him before others are also commands that are to be obeyed for salvation. If you don't forgive others, or you deny Him before others; He will not forgive you, and He will deny you.
To be saved is a process in a believers life, not an automatic.....Jesus and Paul both show this.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


Notice Jesus says the one who endures to the end is saved, and Paul says that the message of the cross is the power of God for us who are being saved; as in a process. Not that we are, or were saved, but being saved....