Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[SoulWeaver]

Galatians 5:4 (NKJV)
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


If salvation is by grace (nobody denies this), how can you say you cannot fall from this grace when the bible says you can?

Your man made doctrine hits a wall right here, you cannot claim they never had grace because you cannot fall away from something you were never in.

You are correct, the people who try to be justified by the law are fallen from grace.
They first believed and believed Jesus received them because they believed the Gospel.
Then they change it and believe the law will justify them......
So they cannot call on grace anymore because they trampled upon it and say grace is not enough - they reject it themselves.
Not talking about obedience but attemps to claim justification by works. We are justified by faith.
The much mentioned Hebrews is also talking about legalists.

 

[newbirth]

No doubt and or they say that we want to (sit on the lounge) and do nothing (to quote perch #2) because we rightly teach that the bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith without any human merit, work, deed attached.

Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



look at faith with works in scripture...show me your faith without works....

Acts 16:29-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

 

[SoulWeaver]

The verses talking about "falling off" are about legalists. Not because God casts them out, but because they themselves, after they believed in justification by faith when they came to Jesus, now reject grace and want to be justified by works. Check context and see for yourself.

Those who do not obey commandments of Christ, simply never believed to begin with (were not sheep) because it is impossible to obey and bear fruit without abiding in Him and being born of Spirit. They "came out" because they "were not of the sheep" (1 Jn 2:19).

So the Scripture is not contradictory. This is how it is treated:

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. ---> Judas Iscariot is not the sheep, he still loved the moneybag, etc.

 

[newbirth]

You are correct, the people who try to be justified by the law are fallen from grace.
They first believed and believed Jesus received them because they believed the Gospel.
Then they change it and believe the law will justify them......
So they cannot call on grace anymore because they trampled upon it and say grace is not enough - they reject it themselves.
Not talking about obedience but attemps to claim justification by works. We are justified by faith.
The much mentioned Hebrews is also talking about legalists.

by works of the law.....attemps to claim justification by works of the law...

We are justified by faith....... but faith without works is dead...that is an established fact...so show how you are justified by faith without works....
don't respond to me respond to James I just repeat what he wrote.....

James 2:23-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 

[dcontroversal]

Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



look at faith with works in scripture...show me your faith without works....

Acts 16:29-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

No offence NOBIRTH...but you have consistently proven that you twist, add to or reject the truth or what anyone states...so your view means about as much as the rocks in my driveway......!

 

[kennethcadwell]

lol. Again, sounds really quite simple.

Whoever comes to me (call out on the name of the lord, and you will be saved) does the words jesus says,

why would they not? they trust Christ He saved them, They love him for saving them, WHo would NOT do what he says?

Because the bible shows that salvation is not immediate, and shows that there will be some who are weak in the faith who's salvation is still in jeopardy do to can easily be wavered by deception, trials, and hardships. That is where we come into play to serve God's will, and minister to them to help make them stronger so that they can withstand those things.
If they do not withstand they their salvation through Jesus is lost.

 

[SoulWeaver]

by works of the law.....attemps to claim justification by works of the law...

We are justified by faith....... but faith without works is dead...that is an established fact...so show how you are justified by faith without works....
don't respond to me respond to James I just repeat what he wrote.....

James 2:23-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Nobody disagrees with you.
Works are witness that the faith is true.
The only miscommunication is constant implying that someone is casting obedience out of the window.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The verses talking about "falling off" are about legalists. Not because God casts them out, but because they themselves, after they believed in justification by faith when they came to Jesus, now reject grace and want to be justified by works. Check context and see for yourself.

Those who do not obey commandments of Christ, simply never believed to begin with (were not sheep) because it is impossible to obey and bear fruit without abiding in Him and being born of Spirit. They "came out" because they "were not of the sheep" (1 Jn 2:19).

So the Scripture is not contradictory. This is how it is treated:

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. ---> Judas Iscariot is not the sheep, he still loved the moneybag, etc.

Amen. Most who followed Jesus were strict followers of the law. Even after Christ shunned the law in their presence, and attempted to tell them it would never save them, they went back to the law. Because that is where their TRUE faith lies. They tried to have faith in Jesus, they just could not do that, The law was WAY more important to them, it is what held their hearts.

As Scripture says, where your heart is, there is where you will be. We may try other things out, may even try to walk away from it for a bit, because we question it. But if it is where our heart is, we will ALWAYS revert back to it.

Like a Dog, We always return to our vomit.

 

[newbirth]

No offence NOBIRTH...but you have consistently proven that you twist, add to or reject the truth or what anyone states...so your view means about as much as the rocks in my driveway......!

you have responded to my words ..which are these,,,look at faith with works in scripture...show me your faith without works....everything else is scripture.....respond to the word of God now....

Originally Posted by newbirth

Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



look at faith with works in scripture...show me your faith without works....

Acts 16:29-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because the bible shows that salvation is not immediate, and shows that there will be some who are weak in the faith who's salvation is still in jeopardy do to can easily be wavered by deception, trials, and hardships. That is where we come into play to serve God's will, and minister to them to help make them stronger so that they can withstand those things.
If they do not withstand they their salvation through Jesus is lost.

You must read a different bible.

The bible says "past tense" we have been saved by grace.

God does not need us to prove to him we will be good enough to recieve his grace, before he decides he will give us salvation. HE KNOWS OUR HEARTS.

Why do you question God? I am not trying to be mean here, it is an honest question. Why chose to trust yourself, and HOPE you are good enough, and not trust God, who said he will MAKE YOU GOOD ENOUGH (PERFECT)?

 

[SoulWeaver]

Amen. Most who followed Jesus were strict followers of the law. Even after Christ shunned the law in their presence, and attempted to tell them it would never save them, they went back to the law. Because that is where their TRUE faith lies. They tried to have faith in Jesus, they just could not do that, The law was WAY more important to them, it is what held their hearts.

As Scripture says, where your heart is, there is where you will be. We may try other things out, may even try to walk away from it for a bit, because we question it. But if it is where our heart is, we will ALWAYS revert back to it.

Like a Dog, We always return to our vomit.

Kinda like self love and wanting to look good.
Not wanting to admit we are wretched on our own and give God the credit for the changes within us and good works we do by HIS power.
It boils down to the motive of the heart.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You must read a different bible.

The bible says "past tense" we have been saved by grace.

Who was Paul talking to when he said this "past tense" saved by grace ?

 

[dcontroversal]

Because the bible shows that salvation is not immediate, and shows that there will be some who are weak in the faith who's salvation is still in jeopardy do to can easily be wavered by deception, trials, and hardships. That is where we come into play to serve God's will, and minister to them to help make them stronger so that they can withstand those things.
If they do not withstand they their salvation through Jesus is lost.

I suggest you study more Kenneth......

1st Corinthians 1:18...unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God
2nd Timothy 1:9 Who HATH SAVED US, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works...
Titus 3:5 ...but according to his mercy he SAVED US

Not to mention ALL the verses that use a PRESENT TENSE concerning ETERNAL life, EVERLASTING LIFE and other verses that SPEAK of SALVATION is a PRESTENT TENSE and or an AORIST VERB TENSE that shows a PAST COMPLETED action with a PRESENT continuing RESULT.

You do understand PRESENT TENSE and PAST TENSE right.........!

You know, I fully expect you to argue against the grammar of the above three verses listed because it proves your opening statement wrong!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who was Paul talking to when he said this "past tense" saved by grace ?

the Ephesian church (gentiles)
Titus (a Gentile)
The roman church (gentiles)
Timothy


actually paul speaks in all tenses.

Has been saved, is being saved, will be saved.

there should be no doubt after reading everything paul says, if your saved, your saved. if your not, your not, there is no inbetween (one gospel)

 

[dcontroversal]

You must read a different bible.

The bible says "past tense" we have been saved by grace.

God does not need us to prove to him we will be good enough to recieve his grace, before he decides he will give us salvation. HE KNOWS OUR HEARTS.

Why do you question God? I am not trying to be mean here, it is an honest question. Why chose to trust yourself, and HOPE you are good enough, and not trust God, who said he will MAKE YOU GOOD ENOUGH (PERFECT)?

It took me like .056 seconds to think of three to 5 verses off the top of my head that contradicts his view...three of them I listed above in my post and with full expectation of him arguing against the grammar used in the verses...just like perch 1 and perch number 2!

 

[newbirth]

Amen. Most who followed Jesus were strict followers of the law. Even after Christ shunned the law in their presence, and attempted to tell them it would never save them, they went back to the law. Because that is where their TRUE faith lies. They tried to have faith in Jesus, they just could not do that, The law was WAY more important to them, it is what held their hearts.

As Scripture says, where your heart is, there is where you will be. We may try other things out, may even try to walk away from it for a bit, because we question it. But if it is where our heart is, we will ALWAYS revert back to it.

Like a Dog, We always return to our vomit.

shun
SHən/

verb
verb: shun; 3rd person present: shuns; past tense: shunned; past participle: shunned; gerund or present participle: shunning
persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution.


where did Christ .....avoid,ignore or reject the law...you are a despicable liar to say that Christ did such a thing.....prove it or retract...

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

you judge Christ wrongly ......

John 7:22-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

[dcontroversal]

the Ephesian church (gentiles)
Titus (a Gentile)
The roman church (gentiles)
Timothy


actually paul speaks in all tenses.

Has been saved, is being saved, will be saved.

there should be no doubt after reading everything paul says, if your saved, your saved. if your not, your not, there is no inbetween (one gospel)

That is why I love the aorist tense verb....shows a present continuing result from a past completed action....like John 3:16

Was saved when I believed
Am saved right now and
Continuing to be saved into the future.....I.E. IS HAVING everlasting life! It is a present reality from the moment of belief!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is why I love the aorist tense verb....shows a present continuing result from a past completed action....like John 3:16

Was saved when I believed
Am saved right now and
Continuing to be saved into the future.....I.E. IS HAVING everlasting life! It is a present reality from the moment of belief!

Yep, As Paul told that mean ole Ephesian Church.

The moment they trusted Christ, they were sealed with the HS, who is the GUARANTEE of their inheritance (eternal life) until that great day when we are ressurected, and our bodies are redeemed with glorified bodies. (also known as the day of redemption)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

shun
SHən/

verb
verb: shun; 3rd person present: shuns; past tense: shunned; past participle: shunned; gerund or present participle: shunning
persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution.


where did Christ .....avoid,ignore or reject the law...you are a despicable liar to say that Christ did such a thing.....prove it or retract...

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

you judge Christ wrongly ......

John 7:22-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

news flash. Just in!

The religious jews taught law as a means of salvation.

Christ SHUNNED the law as a means of salvation.

or do you think he recieved all those lawyers with open arms, and said well done good and faithful servants, you followed my law, now you have earned the right to be my children.

 

[dcontroversal]

news flash. Just in!

The religious jews taught law as a means of salvation.

Christ SHUNNED the law as a means of salvation.

or do you think he recieved all those lawyers with open arms, and said well done good and faithful servants, you followed my law, now you have earned the right to be my children.

I think he called them hypocrites, blind leaders of the blind, white washed coffins etc....well the Pharisees as well were lumped under the same categories.....!