Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[kennethcadwell]

I believe everybody agrees with you on this for the most part - what seems to be the point of disagreement is that we dont have to wait till the end of life to know we are saved.
You know when you have been born again and that you wont go back to old life and will continue to obey Him and grow in Christ. You know the life of sin is harmful and disgusts you, because you're a new creature. So you already know you're saved, that's when your heart changed, you received a new heart to love God will all you have. You dont have to be in incertainty till you die - you know you're following Him and by God's grace will continue to do so. You know you're a child of God.
The warnings are there for those who are still wavering, so they would turn to God and get saved and start displaying evidence of faith in their walk.

Yes we may not have to wait to know, because we have confidence in our faith.
But never the less that is when the Lord says the true saving/salvation take place.

This is where God's will comes to play in our lives, unless we understand our newer and weaker brothers and sisters to the faith salvation is still at risk until they totally confirm to the Truth. ( meat of the word, and not just the milk ) Then those who don't see this will sit back and let them newer or weaker in the faith wither away back into a life of sin.
The Lord is the Good Shepard, and we are His flock. With the help of the Holy Spirit we are called to go out and try to bring the lost back to repentance.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Good answer, and yes it is about the testing of your faith.
Like I said before there are those who are weak in the faith, and those who are strong in the faith. The ones who are weak in the faith are the ones in danger of losing the gift of salvation, they still have faith none the less. It is not built on a solid foundation though that they can build on.

Again agreed for the most part.
The only difference is that I and others here dont count them as saved... they dont lose salvation, because as you say they dont even have the foundation yet (Christ within, born again, new creature). How are they saved? They might have been partaking in forgiveness, but they still fall and cannot pass the test and trial and they fall off. *anyways about partakers of the Spirit that fall off, that verse is about legalism anyways. They reject grace so it cannot help them anymore.

But once a person gets the true foundation, born of the Spirit, good works start showing and God completes what He started (as promised) by growing them more in Christ. This is salvation and it is not lost. Losing salvation would contradict other Scriptures and promises.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did I say you were one of the ones who say obedience and works are not needed.
No, I did not. But there are some who have been on here debating that they are not needed.

The use the debate of easy believism faith;

My friend, Easy believism is just as dangerous as a works based obedient required BEFORE salvation.

also. most of th epeople you claim who are teaching this "easy believism" gospel are not.

Both are from the pits of hell. Both are spoken against in the word of God. and both are dangerous to the plan of God.

But as God said, the gates of hell (these false gospels) will not prevail. And his church will move on.

Believe in Jesus that's it, your now saved.

Actually mere belief in God is not enough, James makes this clear. even demons believe in God. That is just a start It is time to move your belief to FAITH, for oly real faith has the power to save, and real faith WORKS.

Or they add a little more, which is the part He was crucified on the cross and rose on the third day, now that's it your now saved.

Actually Jesus dieing being buried and rose again is the gospel. Paul says this alot. We teach Christ crufied, over an dover that was his message of Good news. For this is the oNLY thing which will get us saved,

it is not the message that is flawed, it is people. If you just believe this, but not everything which comes with it, Well your in danger, but if you have faith in this and everything else God says, your saved,

Then they go and say no matter what you do from here on out, even living in sin is acceptable because no amount of sins will cause you to fall from grace/salvation.
This is not biblical or the truth.

No child of God would say this, And no CHild of God would DO this (fall from grace)

that is the part you are missing, No one who has true faith, and seen the power of God in their and others lives would ever want to go back to their own vomit.

Thats like saying a homless person, who owned nothing, and did not even have a bed to lie on, Was saved, and was given great riches, but all of a sudden wanting to go back to his homeless life.

The people who go back are the people who never experienced the great riches of God, because they were never saved to begin with.

Which is why you see a lot of churches accepting gay relationships now, they are teaching this false gospel.
If a gay person says they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and said they have repented, but then continue to live in a gay relationship they are not saved as some are trying to say they are.
The scripture that says you can not live in willful sin after receiving the truth proves that ones actions and obedience do matter.

if a gay person come to Christ, the conviction of the HS would rip at their heart, and eventually they could no longer do that, Although they may be tempted from time to time,

but this goes with ALL SIN, not just homosexuality, Stop trying to focus on a few sins, and realize we ALL have these sin issues, and we all need healed.

I am not going to kick a gay person who enters my church out, any more than I would a religious pharisee. They both need Christ, I will give them the gospel. and pray for them, and try to hope something sinks in and they decide to trust Christ, and be healed of their eternal problem, then work on their temporal problem.

if after awhile, they have claimed they have accepted Christ, and I see no movement on their sin issue, then their are direct lines of discipline the church is commanded to take, if that is to ask them to leave, then so be it, But 99 percent of the time it has come to that last step. People repent, and change (something to get confronted in front of the whole church)

Very few get up and walk out. But the thing is, We do not so the last step of church discipline first. like so many churches want to do. Then wonder why people are afraid to admit any sin, and get help.

If you believe obedience and actions matter then I am glad, and we do agree on this. But there are some that don't.

I do not know of anyone, in here, or in my life, that would disagree with this. even a non believer for the most part would agree with this. and they do not even know God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good answer, and yes it is about the testing of your faith.
Like I said before there are those who are weak in the faith, and those who are strong in the faith. The ones who are weak in the faith are the ones in danger of losing the gift of salvation, they still have faith none the less. It is not built on a solid foundation though that they can build on.

No, they are not in danger of losing anything. If a weak faith can move a mountain, then how can it not persevere and work on. Jesus says even when we are faithless, He is faithful, he can not deny himself (his promise)

It is legalism which causes the weak in faith to leave, they give up.. so why bother (this is what I saw in the baptist church, and all legalistic churches, and why I DESPISE THEM so much, and will fight so hard against it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again agreed for the most part.
The only difference is that I and others here dont count them as saved... they dont lose salvation, because as you say they dont even have the foundation yet (Christ within, born again, new creature). How are they saved? They might have been partaking in forgiveness, but they still fall and cannot pass the test and trial and they fall off. *anyways about partakers of the Spirit that fall off, that verse is about legalism anyways. They reject grace so it cannot help them anymore.

But once a person gets the true foundation, born of the Spirit, good works start showing and God completes what He started (as promised) by growing them more in Christ. This is salvation and it is not lost. Losing salvation would contradict other Scriptures and promises.

yes, no faith, that is why they fell.

but this would not be applicable to a person who is even weak in faith, I think we all come to God weak in faith, As babes in Christ, our faith has to grow.

Sadly some remain babes in Christ, and never grow. be it their situation, the lack of a good church to help disciple them, or whatever,

But God still has adopted them as his children, and will keep his promise to them.

They just may see all their rewards as wood hay and straw, and be horrified when all their works is burnt, but even as paul says, they themselves will be saved, even though as through fire

 

[SoulWeaver]

yes, no faith, that is why they fell.

but this would not be applicable to a person who is even weak in faith, I think we all come to God weak in faith, As babes in Christ, our faith has to grow.

Sadly some remain babes in Christ, and never grow. be it their situation, the lack of a good church to help disciple them, or whatever,

But God still has adopted them as his children, and will keep his promise to them.

They just may see all their rewards as wood hay and straw, and be horrified when all their works is burnt, but even as paul says, they themselves will be saved, even though as through fire

I rather believe this might be the people who didnt manage yet to grow, like that thief on the cross.
Because once somebody is born again they will march on towards Jesus.
Somebody has 2 talants and someone 10, though.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I rather believe this might be the people who didnt manage yet to grow, like that thief on the cross.
Because once somebody is born again they will march on towards Jesus.
Somebody has 2 talants and someone 10, though.

yes I agree.

But remember, the corinthian church did not grow for awhile. Paul had to chasten them to get them to grow. Waniting to feed them meat, he still had to feel them mild. because they were not mature enough to handle it.

I am not going to judge all people like this, Maybe they do not have a paul to help them or maybe they have other issues..

they will have works, don't get me wrong, you can see things in their life that changed, and they were baptised and all. it is just you do not see growth as in maturity.

 

[SoulWeaver]

yes I agree.

But remember, the corinthian church did not grow for awhile. Paul had to chasten them to get them to grow. Waniting to feed them meat, he still had to feel them mild. because they were not mature enough to handle it.

I am not going to judge all people like this, Maybe they do not have a paul to help them or maybe they have other issues..

they will have works, don't get me wrong, you can see things in their life that changed, and they were baptised and all. it is just you do not see growth as in maturity.

Yes I am aware it is not cut and dry. I took baby steps too when I first started walking. But it gets better. P.S. and I know it is God finishing what He started... that verse really strengthened me to keep faith when I struggled the worse.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Again agreed for the most part.
The only difference is that I and others here dont count them as saved... they dont lose salvation, because as you say they dont even have the foundation yet (Christ within, born again, new creature). How are they saved? They might have been partaking in forgiveness, but they still fall and cannot pass the test and trial and they fall off. *anyways about partakers of the Spirit that fall off, that verse is about legalism anyways. They reject grace so it cannot help them anymore.

But once a person gets the true foundation, born of the Spirit, good works start showing and God completes what He started (as promised) by growing them more in Christ. This is salvation and it is not lost. Losing salvation would contradict other Scriptures and promises.

That is where we do differ a little, because those who go by a faith only gospel to be saved.
This puts a wrinkle in that, because the bible says they do have faith. It is just weak and can be wavered still, so if faith only saves then they would be saved even though they are still weak or a beginner of the Word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I am aware it is not cut and dry. I took baby steps too when I first started walking. But it gets better.

Amen, just keep your eyes on Christ, And seek the spirit. You will grow less dependent on self, the more he validates your faith in him is a good thing, and more dependent on God, and you will see your sin life falter. and it will be so much easier to fight temptation. it will become natural.

 

[SoulWeaver]

That is where we do differ a little, because those who go by a faith only gospel to be saved.
This puts a wrinkle in that, because the bible says they do have faith. It is just weak and can be wavered still, so if faith only saves then they would be saved even though they are still weak or a beginner of the Word.

Okay so disagreement boils down to definition of terms but we agree on the doctrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is where we do differ a little, because those who go by a faith only gospel to be saved.
This puts a wrinkle in that, because the bible says they do have faith. It is just weak and can be wavered still, so if faith only saves then they would be saved even though they are still weak or a beginner of the Word.

I again disagree,

the bible says their faith is dead (non existent ) and a dead faith can save no one, because it is no faith at all.

Some people have belief, and call it faith, but it is no faith at all. These are the people who will fall.

 

[kennethcadwell]

yes I agree.

But remember, the corinthian church did not grow for awhile. Paul had to chasten them to get them to grow. Waniting to feed them meat, he still had to feel them mild. because they were not mature enough to handle it.

I am not going to judge all people like this, Maybe they do not have a paul to help them or maybe they have other issues..

they will have works, don't get me wrong, you can see things in their life that changed, and they were baptised and all. it is just you do not see growth as in maturity.

E.G. I am not going to post on this subject any more and going to move on to other subjects.
I will just have to leave it that we all on here pretty much agree on the main issue, but with little differences on when those tid bits in ones walk take place.

For instance, I will never budge from obedience coming before salvation because it can't.
You can not repent of your sins, tell you hear the word, believe in what it said, then obey the command in it to repent of your sins. Only then after you obey the command to repent, do you get saved.
One can not have salvation before they repent of their sins, for your not even saved yet tell after you repent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

E.G. I am not going to post on this subject any more and going to move on to other subjects.
I will just have to leave it that we all on here pretty much agree on the main issue, but with little differences on when those tid bits in ones walk take place.

For instance, I will never budge from obedience coming before salvation because it can't.
You can not repent of your sins, tell you hear the word, believe in what it said, then obey the command in it to repent of your sins. Only then after you obey the command to repent, do you get saved.
One can not have salvation before they repent of their sins, for your not even saved yet tell after you repent.

Thats fine. and I agree

I do not see repentance as obedience though, I see it as a change of heart and mind.

yet we both can agree, unless repentance is real. a person is not saved.

I will never say obedience is before salvation, because then I can BOAST of saving myself, and take away the glory which belongs only to God.

not to judge you, just to explain why I see it the way i do.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I prayed about understanding why Bible says these unsaved have faith which Kenneth said, this as I was heading outside, and it just popped into my mind which would explain this definition of "little faith" and why there is disagreement.

To have "A LITTLE FAITH" is different from having "LITTLE FAITH".
A little faith is of a true believer, this is the person with 2 talants.
Little faith is not enough for salvation, this is the unprofitable servant with 1 talant.
2 talants like two witnesses, faith and works (true faith). 1 talant, faith without the witness of works.
The one with 10 had more faith and greater works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I prayed about understanding why Bible says these unsaved have faith which Kenneth said, this as I was heading outside, and it just popped into my mind which would explain this definition of "little faith" and why there is disagreement.

To have "A LITTLE FAITH" is different from having "LITTLE FAITH".
A little faith is of a true believer, this is the person with 2 talants.
Little faith is not enough for salvation, this is the unprofitable servant with 1 talant.
2 talants like two witnesses, faith and works (true faith). 1 talant, faith without the witness of works.
The one with 10 had more faith and greater works.

I guess it all depends on ones definition of faith. maybe we have different defenitions. and that is what is causing the struggles.

 

[elf3]

Did I say you were one of the ones who say obedience and works are not needed.
No, I did not. But there are some who have been on here debating that they are not needed.

The use the debate of easy believism faith;
Believe in Jesus that's it, your now saved. Or they add a little more, which is the part He was crucified on the cross and rose on the third day, now that's it your now saved.
Then they go and say no matter what you do from here on out, even living in sin is acceptable because no amount of sins will cause you to fall from grace/salvation.
This is not biblical or the truth.

Which is why you see a lot of churches accepting gay relationships now, they are teaching this false gospel.
If a gay person says they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and said they have repented, but then continue to live in a gay relationship they are not saved as some are trying to say they are.
The scripture that says you can not live in willful sin after receiving the truth proves that ones actions and obedience do matter.

If you believe obedience and actions matter then I am glad, and we do agree on this. But there are some that don't.

First want to make clear that in no way am I claiming that you are saying I am one of these people.

You are correct there is a huge difference between what we are describing as "faith alone" and the "faith only" advocates.

Faith alone is by faith are we justified but our faith will lead to good works. Faith only is have faith and do what you want because God forgives.

Faith only takes God's grace and uses it as a "reason" to sin.

Faith alone takes Gods grace and uses it as a "reason" not to sin.

And I would like to add that I sure hope I did not come off sounding like a faith only advocate.

 

[psychomom]

yeah, I do not think the gospel has been watered down, I think its more like the pharisees and many other religious people. we have watered down the law. and determined what sins we can get away with, and what sins we can't as long as we see ourselves as not sinners in THAT guideline, we deem ourselves to be righteous people. and end up judging anyone else who does not live up to OUR standard of sin, we excuse our own sin that makes God want to puke! and then place the name of God and obedience is required in it, and we are living up to that standard. Everyone who does not follow us, LOVES SIN, for if they did not LOVE sin, they would not preach free grace and mercy, they would be like us! and demand that works are required by God before he will assure your salvation and entrance into heaven.

watering down God's Law has become a much bigger problem, imo, than 'cheap grace'.

Grace isn't cheap, it's FREE (to us) and we better thank God it is!

here's our dilemma...God requires perfection.
God only accepts perfection.
we're not perfect.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for Himself a people that are His very own, eager to do what is good.

there's God's grace through our Lord Jesus doin' all the Work again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

watering down God's Law has become a much bigger problem, imo, than 'cheap grace'.

Grace isn't cheap, it's FREE (to us) and we better thank God it is!

here's our dilemma...God requires perfection.
God only accepts perfection.
we're not perfect.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for Himself a people that are His very own, eager to do what is good.

there's God's grace through our Lord Jesus doin' all the Work again.

That God, he always puts us to shame, Maybe thats why people do not want to agree with all he says, and make their own gospel. Because God is to busy putting us to shame and we do not like it (Our Pride)

 

[newbirth]

watering down God's Law has become a much bigger problem, imo, than 'cheap grace'.

Grace isn't cheap, it's FREE (to us) and we better thank God it is!

here's our dilemma...God requires perfection.
God only accepts perfection.
we're not perfect.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for Himself a people that are His very own, eager to do what is good.

there's God's grace through our Lord Jesus doin' all the Work again.

let us assume you are learning a new language....
the tutor is teaching you to say some new words...
is the teacher doing all the work ?
are you doing all the work ?
or are you both working together ?