The law cannot make void the Promise

[Hizikyah]

I don't deny any part of scripture, just as I don't deny that faith and works go hand in hand. But you tried to twist my question to you around by trying to say that Abraham was justified by his own works when he went to offer up his son Isaac. This is an outright LIE! I have proved your error time and time again, but you still try to twist words around.

Which is no wonder, because the serpent was more cunning than all the beasts the Lord had made.

"outright LIE!"

WhaaaaaT?

I quoted Scripture. You are acting crazy.

James 2
English Standard Version
18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

James 2
New American Standard Bible
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

James 2
King James Bible
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2
New Living Translation
18Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.” 19You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.f Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? 21Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.



23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Again, WHAT LAW WAS ABRAHAM JUSTIFIED BY? Was it by the law of Moses, or was it by faith in God?

Here was my original question in post #39 (look above) Now somehow you have managed to wriggle and wiggle all around this question, even trying to twist things around to make it look like I'm denying the scripture. What a clever little serpent you are indeed.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Post #41 is where you tried to wiggle out of the question.

 

[Hizikyah]

Post #41 is where you tried to wiggle out of the question.

lo clearly answered by Scripture posted;
in post 37 before you even tried to trip me up

#37

 

[Billyd]

"outright LIE!"

WhaaaaaT?

I quoted Scripture. You are acting crazy.

James 2
English Standard Version
18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

James 2
New American Standard Bible
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

James 2
King James Bible
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2
New Living Translation
18Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.” 19You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.f Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? 21Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.



23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

What is the difference between the Works of Faith and the Works of the Law? When you understand, you will be on the road to understanding what Jesus meant when he said that He came to Save the world, not to Condemn it.

 

[psychomom]

James 2
New American Standard Bible
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

don't you think this is simply saying Abraham's faith in God's Promise led to his offering of Isaac?
James is saying those who've been gifted by God with that faith will show it...
right?

i mean, it's not as though it were some kind of threat, right?

 

[weakness]

Wrong again, Abraham was justified by faith long before he had offered up Isaac.

Romans 4:10-14[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

​ There is nothing "wrong again" those are scriptures, How can it be wrong, unless your looking and misinterpreting it wrong. Abraham was justified by his works,or his obedience, to gods voice speaking to him. Thereby making in himself a picture and type of the Heavenly Father sacrificing his own Son. Just imagine how pure and single minded Abe must have been to obey. Only the Holy Spirit in him could do such a thing. Praise God.I think there is a lot of twisted ideas about grace and works. It doesn't seem so hard to me. If Jesus dwells in us via the Holy Spirit of course we will do Good works by him who dwells in us.This has nothing to do with work to earn salvation, But as said " faith without works is dead". If some one is in need and you have the means to help but only SAY be warmed or be filled, How dwells the love of God in you? It's a subject that has countless hours senseless arguments over Here. Sometimes I think there is only five or six horses to ride around here!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

​ There is nothing "wrong again" those are scriptures, How can it be wrong, unless your looking and misinterpreting it wrong. Abraham was justified by his works,or his obedience, to gods voice speaking to him. Thereby making in himself a picture and type of the Heavenly Father sacrificing his own Son. Just imagine how pure and single minded Abe must have been to obey. Only the Holy Spirit in him could do such a thing. Praise God.I think there is a lot of twisted ideas about grace and works. It doesn't seem so hard to me. If Jesus dwells in us via the Holy Spirit of course we will do Good works by him who dwells in us.This has nothing to do with work to earn salvation, But as said " faith without works is dead". If some one is in need and you have the means to help but only SAY be warmed or be filled, How dwells the love of God in you? It's a subject that has countless hours senseless arguments over Here. Sometimes I think there is only five or six horses to ride around here!

Isaac was not even around when Abraham was justified by faith, read what I posted again.

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth

Wrong again, Abraham was justified by faith long before he had offered up Isaac.

Romans 4:10-14[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

 

[weakness]

I don't deny any part of scripture, just as I don't deny that faith and works go hand in hand. But you tried to twist my question to you around by trying to say that Abraham was justified by his own works when he went to offer up his son Isaac. This is an outright LIE! I have proved your error time and time again, but you still try to twist words around.

Which is no wonder, because the serpent was more cunning than all the beasts the Lord had made.[/QUOTE. But Abraham was justified by his works in obeying God. What if he had not been obedient and not offered his only begotten son. Where would we be then?

 

[weakness]

Isaac was not even around when Abraham was justified by faith, read what I posted again.

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth

Wrong again, Abraham was justified by faith long before he had offered up Isaac.

Romans 4:10-14[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Ye ,and Christ was crucified for us before the foundation of the world too. You know what I meant .Why did you even make such a pointless reply? Unless you just like contention.

 

[psychomom]

I don't deny any part of scripture, just as I don't deny that faith and works go hand in hand. But you tried to twist my question to you around by trying to say that Abraham was justified by his own works when he went to offer up his son Isaac. This is an outright LIE! I have proved your error time and time again, but you still try to twist words around.

Which is no wonder, because the serpent was more cunning than all the beasts the Lord had made.[/QUOTE. But Abraham was justified by his works in obeying God. What if he had not been obedient and not offered his only begotten son. Where would we be then?

we'd be in the same place, wouldn't we?

we're not justified because of anything Abraham did, but because of Christ's life, death and resurrection.
(isn't that right? )

 

[Hizikyah]

don't you think this is simply saying Abraham's faith in God's Promise led to his offering of Isaac?
James is saying those who've been gifted by God with that faith will show it...
right?

i mean, it's not as though it were some kind of threat, right?

This is exactly what it means IMO.

Where di I ever state differently?

I know there are a load of false accusations saying "im saying that" but in REALITY I never said that.

What happens is I post a VERSE tha says the Law of Yahweh is a right thing and many jump on my back and say im evil....

I did not invent Isayah 8:20 or Revelation 12:17, the Creator of the heavens and earth did.

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Is Revelation 12:17 not in everyone's bible?

 

[psychomom]

This is exactly what it means IMO.

Where di I ever state differently?

I know there are a load of false accusations saying "im saying that" but in REALITY I never said that.

What happens is I post a VERSE tha says the Law of Yahweh is a right thing and many jump on my back and say im evil....

I did not invent Isayah 8:20 or Revelation 12:17, the Creator of the heavens and earth did.

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Is Revelation 12:17 not in everyone's bible?

it is, and i'm sorry i misunderstood you. ♥

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I cannot but wonder at those who think thier sin is greater than the sacrifice of Jesus blood and the Lord would devalue the promises made to us who beleive.

IMO they are using a limited human reasoning.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

lo clearly answered by Scripture posted;
in post 37 before you even tried to trip me up

#37

Whatever, still can't answer the question. The reason being is that the promise and the covenant by faith given to Abraham by God came well before Isaac, and also well before the law was even around. So your effort to make the works of Abraham by offering Isaac (which came after) an issue of justification by works of the law is nothing more than a distraction from the truth.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I don't deny any part of scripture, just as I don't deny that faith and works go hand in hand. But you tried to twist my question to you around by trying to say that Abraham was justified by his own works when he went to offer up his son Isaac. This is an outright LIE! I have proved your error time and time again, but you still try to twist words around.

Which is no wonder, because the serpent was more cunning than all the beasts the Lord had made.[/QUOTE. But Abraham was justified by his works in obeying God. What if he had not been obedient and not offered his only begotten son. Where would we be then?

The promise to Abraham was made before Isaac was even around, try to pay attention.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

What does all of this mean? Say between a straight Christian and a gay man? How does one differinciate between the flesh and the spirit in this?

Christians walk by faith the world walks by their senses.

 

[Hizikyah]

it is, and i'm sorry i misunderstood you. ♥

No problem, love in the Name of Yahshua! truly!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Pay attention, here is where Abram was justified by faith (no works, no Isaac involved)

Genesis 15:1-615 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Hizikyah]

Whatever, still can't answer the question. The reason being is that the promise and the covenant by faith given to Abraham by God came well before Isaac, and also well before the law was even around. So your effort to make the works of Abraham by offering Isaac (which came after) an issue of justification by works of the law is nothing more than a distraction from the truth.

Genesis 26:5
(5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my (H8451)laws.

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

So according to Scripture Abraham kept the Torah, I will not debate this any longer it is clearly written.

If you believe Scripture you believe Abraham followed the Torah, the same Torah that is on the heart of those washed in the blood of Messiah.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

I dont say this with anger or disdain;

You put the Creator in a "box" He is eternal, knowing the end from the beginning, your words imply He had no foresight, the Laws of the universe have always existed... and always will, if there was no Law how did satan do anything wrong in the garden? no rather YHWH is beyond out understand and mental reach....