Division in the church

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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#61
ISeeYou said:
You so know I am not talking about just here, dont you?
Whatever.

A forum is a forum is a forum is a forum...IS NOT THE WORLD. Hopefully, you'll understand what that means.

In the end, God's Judgment (which He's allotted to Christ) will be the only thing that matters and spending as much time as I do with Him in His Word and in prayer, I'm quite confident that He doesn't view me in the same manner in which certain others do. Don't get me wrong...I'm no stranger to God's rebukes/chastenings and I actually delight in the same in that they help me to grow. At the same time, however, it's a very rare occasion when the criticisms of others and the reproofs of God align themselves. IOW, I generally find that the things which God "commends" me for, people "condemn" me for. Similarly, I generally find that the things that God "condemns" me for (of course, I repent, so there won't be any real condemnation in the end), people "commend" me for. I'll stick with God...but I always consider what others have to say.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#63
Definately, thats how I would rather it.

I wouldnt want it any other way.
Btw, did you discover the fountain of youth or something? I thought that we were the same age...
 

ISeeYou

Senior Member
Jan 8, 2015
794
11
0
#64
Btw, did you discover the fountain of youth or something? I thought that we were the same age...

I would consider being around as being the same, but no, InSpiritInTruth had to inform me of how old I was in one forum because I couldnt count down using the year alone and thats not only because I am bad with math as I have stated so before but it also doesnt help that I dont celebrate birthdays, so its just not something I keep track of. Most women round down I round up.

Even my birthday here is off in days but that is moreso on purpose because of fraudulent activity

Why would that be important to you?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,063
1,037
113
New Zealand
#65
Define 'the church'

I think you will find the unity in the bible that is commanded by God is about local and visible congregations. Church at Corinth-- unity wanted in that.. church at Antioch-- unity in that.. church at Phillipi .. unity in that.

NOT unity across every believer in the entire world.. that is a logistical nightmare.. and not what the bible is talking about.

church- ecclessia.. local gathering/assembly/congregation of saved baptised believers.. covenanted to carry out the great commission and commandment.

So the question I think should be how to get unity in the local congregation you are part of.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#66
Define 'the church'

I think you will find the unity in the bible that is commanded by God is about local and visible congregations. Church at Corinth-- unity wanted in that.. church at Antioch-- unity in that.. church at Phillipi .. unity in that.

NOT unity across every believer in the entire world.. that is a logistical nightmare.. and not what the bible is talking about.

church- ecclessia.. local gathering/assembly/congregation of saved baptised believers.. covenanted to carry out the great commission and commandment.

So the question I think should be how to get unity in the local congregation you are part of.
Easy answer. Each congregation can sponsor one traveler and thereby unite with the others in a simple game which brings glory to God and is Biblical. I bet it wouldn't take too long to have a million congregations involved...but then again...a congregation can sponsor as many travelers as they choose freely.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#67
I would consider being around as being the same, but no, InSpiritInTruth had to inform me of how old I was in one forum because I couldnt count down using the year alone and thats not only because I am bad with math as I have stated so before but it also doesnt help that I dont celebrate birthdays, so its just not something I keep track of. Most women round down I round up.

Even my birthday here is off in days but that is moreso on purpose because of fraudulent activity

Why would that be important to you?
It's not important. I just always thought that we were the same age, based upon previous conversations which we've had...that's all.
 

ISeeYou

Senior Member
Jan 8, 2015
794
11
0
#68
It's not important. I just always thought that we were the same age, based upon previous conversations which we've had...that's all.
I thought we were both around 50 give or take. I would be 15 months out from 50.

Wouldnt the first time, I thought I was around 44 at the time when InSpiritInTruth informed me that I wasnt according to my year and that I was actually 46. That was a couple of years back which I thought was even farther back then that. I remember that because it felt like a punch in the gut at the time and it took two weeks before that sunk it, I didnt know where two whole years went, and so this time I am pleasantly surprise so see Im 15 months younger than I thought, Im not in any rush for 50? And at our age, a few years means so very little.

I actually thought it was fairly typical for women (those who actually celebrated birthdays) to stop keeping track of their age after 40. I dont celebrate those days and years for myself so I never get a card telling me Im one year older (I gotta recall what year it is in the present and count) and I stink at that and I say that all the time to the point of ad nauseam.

Just feel like celebrating my youth right now (I kid)




 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#69
the Osas the law music that is evil the rapture these are some of the main subjects that cause disunity and chaos in the church. I have benn pondering about this, frankly i hate the disunity i dont like how the church divides and goes against each other but i remember How jesus said he did not come to unite but to bring a sword or at least i think thats what he said. but I also remember how he said a house divided against itself cannot stand. But is this disunity necessary? is it to seperate the wheat from the chaff? Or is it simply the enemies tactic to bring down the church?

i also understan the one world government the one world religion that is rearing its ugly head calls for unity. i wonder who will succeed in unity first the one world agenda or Gods church?
Jesus said, " 49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

What I believe Jesus is saying here directly pertains to His Jewish listeners, but also indirectly to us, which is that a family will be divided because some will choose faith in Him, the cross and some will remain in the "Jewish" system of temple worship of animal sacrifice, and Jewish rituals/tradistions. When a Jew becomes a Christian, the family shuns them, to the point that could lead to death of the Christian. It was a Jewish custom and law to "put out" and in some cases "put to death" the defector (someone who leaves their old faith or religion). The application can be made that whenever you have a non-believer and believer in the same household, contempt and division will arise. (Which is why Paul tells Christians not to marry an unbeliever, unequally yoked). Muslims will put out their sons and daughters if the son or daughter becomes a Christian. I have two non believing grownup stepsons living with me atm and we have division as well. Although I haven't "kicked them out" (yet), they sure cause disunity in the family, not only between me and them, but also to the point where my wife and I disagree on what disciplinary action need to be taken when they don't follow house rules. Jesus came to restore the peace between God and the Individual, not between household members or people in general.

On the unity of the Church aspect of your post, I would add that Jesus prayed for unity for the believers. John 17;
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone (disciples), but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word (future believers); 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,that the world may believe that You sent Me.22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

I ask you and all, how are we doing? It seems to me, That the world will know Christ when the Church grows up into a mature man. Paul talks about the church as a new man, Christ is the head, we are the body. Paul seems to say that this will be unity and growth of the church is what the church will be: Ephesians 4,
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

It is a shame, and looks bad to the world, when those who profess Christ act like children, bickering with one another about non essential things. But on a positive note, I went to the Winter Jam 2015 in Columbus, OH, last Friday, and the speaker spoke on unity, saying how the whole stadium was filled with many denominations all over, but we here we are worshiping and making a joyful noise unto the LORD under one roof. Although I didn't care for the metal bands, Family Force 5 nor Skillet (lots of chaotic noise with no real message), the message (by Tony Noland) was powerful and all about the gospel of Christ. There were other music bands there as well who sung well and had an uplifting and Godly message (King and Country, Building 429, Jeremy Camp, Francesca Battistelli ). My point, I believe I felt and had a glimpse of this unity Paul and Jesus talked about.

Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!!
 
Last edited:

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#70
Jesus said, " 49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

What I believe Jesus is saying here directly pertains to His Jewish listeners, but also indirectly to us, which is that a family will be divided because some will choose faith in Him, the cross and some will remain in the "Jewish" system of temple worship of animal sacrifice, and Jewish rituals/tradistions. When a Jew becomes a Christian, the family shuns them, to the point that could lead to death of the Christian. It was a Jewish custom and law to "put out" and in some cases "put to death" the defector (someone who leaves their old faith or religion). The application can be made that whenever you have a non-believer and believer in the same household, contempt and division will arise. (Which is why Paul tells Christians not to marry an unbeliever, unequally yoked). Muslims will put out their sons and daughters if the son or daughter becomes a Christian. I have two non believing grownup stepsons living with me atm and we have division as well. Although I haven't "kicked them out" (yet), they sure cause disunity in the family, not only between me and them, but also to the point where my wife and I disagree on what disciplinary action need to be taken when they don't follow house rules. Jesus came to restore the peace between God and the Individual, not between household members or people in general.

On the unity of the Church aspect of your post, I would add that Jesus prayed for unity for the believers. John 17;
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone (disciples), but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word (future believers); 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,that the world may believe that You sent Me.22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

I ask you and all, how are we doing? It seems to me, That the world will know Christ when the Church grows up into a mature man. Paul talks about the church as a new man, Christ is the head, we are the body. Paul seems to say that this will be unity and growth of the church is what the church will be: Ephesians 4,
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

It is a shame, and looks bad to the world, when those who profess Christ act like children, bickering with one another about non essential things. But on a positive note, I went to the Winter Jam 2015 in Columbus, OH, last Friday, and the speaker spoke on unity, saying how the whole stadium was filled with many denominations all over, but we here we are worshiping and making a joyful noise unto the LORD under one roof. Although I didn't care for the metal bands, Family Force 5 nor Skillet (lots of chaotic noise with no real message), the message (by Tony Noland) was powerful and all about the gospel of Christ. There were other music bands there as well who sung well and had an uplifting and Godly message (King and Country, Building 429, Jeremy Camp, Francesca Battistelli ). My point, I believe I felt and had a glimpse of this unity Paul and Jesus talked about.

Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!!
Regarding the underlined portion in red above, when two people of the same family come to Christ, not only is their relation with God restored, but their relationship with one another is restored. The bibles says when we come into Christ, all things become new and it is as if we are already seated with Christ in heavenly places (2 Corinthians 5:17, Isaiah 65, Ephesians 1:3, 2:6).
 
3

3Scoreand10

Guest
#71
Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!![/QUOTE]

There is to much heresy being taught by defferent churches so there will never be unity unless some are willing to compromise.

I for one will never compromise the truth for heresy.
Jesus never compromised, and never will I.
I guess I will not be part of the unity you want.
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
25
0
#72
Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!

There is to much heresy being taught by defferent churches so there will never be unity unless some are willing to compromise.

I for one will never compromise the truth for heresy.
Jesus never compromised, and never will I.
I guess I will not be part of the unity you want.


Can you elaborate on this please? some Christians I know think that there is only truth without grace and then the other Christians believe in grace without truth. Is that another division?

Anyway what do you think?

P.S. I somehow messed up on the quote thingy so I italicized it. sorry if that's confusing.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#73
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

John 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd (4166. poimén)."

Phillipians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven, out from which we also eagerly wait for our Ruler, Yahshua Messiah the King."
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#74
the Osas the law music that is evil the rapture these are some of the main subjects that cause disunity and chaos in the church.
Those things cause no disunity except among those who reject them as God's truth -- which they are, or in the case of the music you disparage, it is giving glory to God.

I have benn pondering about this, frankly i hate the disunity i dont like how the church divides and goes against each other but i remember How jesus said he did not come to unite but to bring a sword or at least i think thats what he said.
You think??? It behooves you to know what He said if you intend to "speak" for Him. Given your chosen subject matter, I think He would rather you had been silent.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,063
1,037
113
New Zealand
#75
Family of God vs a local body of believers

These are not the same thing!

Is the unity the OP is referring to -- unity in the whole family of God or unity in a local body of believers?

It is important to get this distinction.

I for one believe the body of Christ is no universal entity- and is not the same as the Family of God. I believe the body of Christ is a local body.. eg.. the body of Christ at Corinth.. body at Antioch.. body at Philllipi. Ephesians shows unity in a local body.. it's not about unity across every believer.

So what is being referred to? Universal Family of God? Or local body of believers?
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#76
Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!!
There is to much heresy being taught by defferent churches so there will never be unity unless some are willing to compromise.

I for one will never compromise the truth for heresy.
Jesus never compromised, and never will I.
I guess I will not be part of the unity you want.[/QUOTE]I think, The heresy you speak of isn't part of the Church to begin with. Also, Unity has noting to do with compromise. I'm speaking of unity within Christian orthodoxy.
 
3

3Scoreand10

Guest
#77
Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!

There is to much heresy being taught by defferent churches so there will never be unity unless some are willing to compromise.

I for one will never compromise the truth for heresy.
Jesus never compromised, and never will I.
I guess I will not be part of the unity you want.


Can you elaborate on this please? some Christians I know think that there is only truth without grace and then the other Christians believe in grace without truth. Is that another division?

Anyway what do you think?

P.S. I somehow messed up on the quote thingy so I italicized it. sorry if that's confusing.[/QUOT

The most importand issue is salvation,( Eternal life in heaven with Jesus)a
Some teach that you must do certain works to obtain and keep salvation.
Some teach you must be baptised to obtain salvation.
Some teach you must be a member of their church to obtain salvation.
The truth is John 3:16, and once you obtain salvation, you can not lose it. God will not take back what He freely gives,

I will not compromise the truth as I have stated them, just to have unity and fellowship with those who teach heresy (lies and untrues)
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#78
Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!

There is to much heresy being taught by defferent churches so there will never be unity unless some are willing to compromise.

I for one will never compromise the truth for heresy.
Jesus never compromised, and never will I.
I guess I will not be part of the unity you want.


Can you elaborate on this please? some Christians I know think that there is only truth without grace and then the other Christians believe in grace without truth. Is that another division?

Anyway what do you think?

P.S. I somehow messed up on the quote thingy so I italicized it. sorry if that's confusing.[/QUOT

The most importand issue is salvation,( Eternal life in heaven with Jesus)a
Some teach that you must do certain works to obtain and keep salvation.
Some teach you must be baptised to obtain salvation.
Some teach you must be a member of their church to obtain salvation.
The truth is John 3:16, and once you obtain salvation, you can not lose it. God will not take back what He freely gives,

I will not compromise the truth as I have stated them, just to have unity and fellowship with those who teach heresy (lies and untrues)
The irony, of course, is that your stated "truths" CONTAIN HERESY within them.

And so it goes...
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
25
0
#80
Don't give up hope Blain, pray for unity of God people and our growing up to a perfect and mature man!!

There is to much heresy being taught by defferent churches so there will never be unity unless some are willing to compromise.

I for one will never compromise the truth for heresy.
Jesus never compromised, and never will I.
I guess I will not be part of the unity you want.


Can you elaborate on this please? some Christians I know think that there is only truth without grace and then the other Christians believe in grace without truth. Is that another division?

Anyway what do you think?

P.S. I somehow messed up on the quote thingy so I italicized it. sorry if that's confusing.[/QUOT

The most importand issue is salvation,( Eternal life in heaven with Jesus)a
Some teach that you must do certain works to obtain and keep salvation.
Some teach you must be baptised to obtain salvation.
Some teach you must be a member of their church to obtain salvation.
The truth is John 3:16, and once you obtain salvation, you can not lose it. God will not take back what He freely gives,

I will not compromise the truth as I have stated them, just to have unity and fellowship with those who teach heresy (lies and untrues)
I'm talking about like how some Christians go around being like "I will say the truth and nothing but the truth and if people get 'offended' that's their problem" then there are Christians that are like "Jesus accepts you, sin and all!" Is that a division and if so where is the happy middle...er..truthful middle? Is the truth in the middle? I am confusing myself. anyway what are your thoughts?