A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

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elf3

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that's entirely out of context

I resent the insinuation by people in this thread that those of us against female preachers hate women in general. So really look out at your own attitude first.
Actually my attitude is fine and I didn't say everyone on the other side. I said which side shows this the least. I never said you or anyone hated women I just noticed that some people are slinging insults more than the others and the insults come more from one side than the other. So if you or anyone resents those verses I'm sorry you do.

And I do not know how I have taken those verses out of context.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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You must understand the culture in Paul's day. The ancient world was male-dominated; so rather than crusade against it, the apostles accommodated themselves to it, but they had hoped that the gospel would change society. In the meantime, however, Paul knew society would not accept women as pastors so he presumes that the pastor would be a male.
Now the reverse is true. Most societies accept the equal rights of women, yet many churches are fighting the reverse culture war by keeping women from equality in the church. I think those churches that refuse to accept the full role of women in the church actually hinder the gospel by showing prejudiced against women. Doing this is contrary to the message and life of Christ who was progressive in His view of women.Every historian agrees at this point: that Jesus was way ahead of society when it came to the equality of women. Yet, ministers are often way behind society when it comes to the role of women. I think it is a shame that governments, corporations, schools, and other institutions, are leading the way for equality, while many churches lag behind. The traditional church has been a bad example in this area.
The above paragraphs sum it up quite well.

"Paul knew society would not accept women as pastors so he presumes that the pastor would be a male."

"Every historian agrees at this point: that Jesus was way ahead of society when it came to the equality of women."

And Jesus knew that due to the nature of society during His time, it would not be a real smart idea for the 12 apostles to be men. As in, not smart due to the prejudices against women and the additional dangers women would be subject to.

Smart guy, that Jesus.

You know, had Jesus and Paul been around, I bet women would have gotten the right to vote in the U.S. on the national level before 1920.
 
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elf3

Guest
This subject not being a command or law by God is more of a subject of conscience. For the sake of everyone involved I think it might be a good idea to stop the debate here.

It has become more of a slinging of insults and tearing down of our brothers and sisters in Christ. I love you all in Christ. God bless you all.

On that note I sign out of this.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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The above paragraphs sum it up quite well.

"Paul knew society would not accept women as pastors so he presumes that the pastor would be a male."

"Every historian agrees at this point: that Jesus was way ahead of society when it came to the equality of women."

And Jesus knew that due to the nature of society during His time, it would not be a real smart idea for the 12 apostles to be men. As in, not smart due to the prejudices against women and the additional dangers women would be subject to.

Smart guy, that Jesus.

You know, had Jesus and Paul been around, I bet women would have gotten the right to vote in the U.S. on the national level before 1920.
This is a very anachronistic way of viewing Jesus Paul, and even God. We shouldn't assume that God holds to the same cultural values, mores, and political philosophy we see so common in our own country. Rather, we should learn from what God has revealed.

If the Lord did not want wives to submit to their husbands, for example, he could have instructed His apostles not to teach that they should. The apostles weren't too afraid to go against commonly held notions. If their teaching for women bucked against the norms of society, that's fine. But we should stick with what they revealed, not just assume that they really wanted to go as far as our society did, rather than go as far as what was actually revealed. Why couldn't they just promote full-scale gender egalitarian and feminism in their own day if they were going to go against cultural normal.

I don't think Paul would have campaigned for the right of women to vote. I don't think he would have campaigned for the right of men to vote either. Democracy comes from Athens, not Jerusalem. It's from Greek philosophy, not something God revealed. The kingdom of heaven is a kingdom. Jesus is King, not a democratically elected president.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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We're talking about divine sexism, here. I just can't grasp it.
I'm not saying I agree with the idea of menstruation symbolizing being washed in the blood in the comment you referred to, but I'd like to comment on what you said.

Again, we can't expect that God will conform to our societies ideas of morality.

If there is some aspect of truth that God has revealed that our society considers to be sexist, then let us be sexist in that area. That's good sexism. If there is something that is sexist that is against what God commands, then lets not be sexism.

Jesus is Lord, and we follow Him. If He overturned some traditions about how men are to relate to women, that's great. We can accept and appreciate that. But if something He taught or sent His apostles to teach is deemed sexist, then Jesus is Lord, so let's be sexist in that area.

We shouldn't let societies labels keep us from believing and following Jesus in every area of our lives.
 

p_rehbein

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Sep 4, 2013
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I can't find where the Bible says one thing against women preachers. I'm using 'preacher' the way it's usually used in the Bible, not for something done in church, but for proclaiming the Gospel. Jesus sent Mary Magdalene to tell His disciples that He had risen from the dead, after all.

We use 'preach' to mean talk loud in church. Translations aren't always consistent in what they translate 'preach', but usually the word is used to translate situations that refer to evangelism, rather than speaking in church. In church, we should hear prophesying, teaching, and exhortation from the saints.

The New Testament also teaches that women will prophesy.


Being a 'preacher' and a 'pastor' isn't the same thing. Whether 'pastor' is an official role in charge of the church isn't specified in scripture. The apostles appointed elders and called them overseers/bishops. I don't believe a woman should serve in that role, because I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 tells us that he should be a man, a one woman man.



...........as was their "tradition"............ :)
 

p_rehbein

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I have no idea who's talking, what he/she is talking about or what having dominion over the mighty means. But one thing I do know, it's not talking about Deborah being given authority over men. That's a total contradiction of everything Paul wrote about and the bible does not contradict itself.
could a lack of understanding be any more clear?
 

p_rehbein

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Everything on earth is a pattern of the heavenly. For example God made females to have monthly periods... the woman is cleansed by the blood. This is the earthly pattern of the heavenly reality, the woman (the church) is cleansed by the blood (Christ's blood) The heavens declare the glory of God and so does creation.

The woman is to learn from her husband. The woman (the church) is to learn from her husband (Christ).
A woman greatly honors Christ to live out this earthly shadow of heavenly truth.

Women are just as good, smart, spiritual etc. as a man. That's not the point. The point is God wants things done for His purposes, it's just plain wrong to usurp that.
Do any of the women you know, or in your church (assuming you actually go to church) own a Bible? Do they read that Bible? WHY? Are they not in direct disobedience of Scripture?

God's purpose? So the scripture in Galatians is NOT God's purpose? Hmmmmm
 

Yeraza_Bats

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Sadly, I cant really consider the idea of women being allowed to preach because its all the personal feelings of people over Gods word. I still havent found any reason to believe He wanted opposite of what He taught.

The question was do you think its right for a woman to be a pastor? I do not know, but God tells us that He does not want it. There is no greek nor jew, no slave nor free, no male nor female, for all are one in Christ. but that never did away with the roles given to us by God. That just means He does not hold one group with favoritism over the other, I believe. But I do not believe that means you are now free to live as you see fit, and not Him.

God tells us He is unchanging. And keep in mind I dont even have the desire to lead or any of these things. Id only like to do whats right by God, and that would be to live by saying "the Lord says".

Why would people be so offended by what God has asked for?
 

p_rehbein

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There's nothing wrong with spreading the gospel but that's totally different than sitting in spiritual authority over a congregation. He does put limits on it... a woman is not to teach a man.[/QUOTE]


Who is this he you speak of? the Apostle? God? Shall we revisit God's view in the 3rd Chapter of Galatians? Shall we revisit how the Apostle clearly identified these instructions as "traditions?"
 
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Do any of the women you know, or in your church (assuming you actually go to church) own a Bible? Do they read that Bible? WHY? Are they not in direct disobedience of Scripture?

God's purpose? So the scripture in Galatians is NOT God's purpose? Hmmmmm
I'm not following you. Women are not forbidden to read scripture or talk about scripture. Jesus is the Word of God... the Word of God is the woman's husband. Yes, that's right the inerrant word of God, the bible is the physical manifestation of Jesus. The woman is supposed to let her husband teach her... she's supposed to read her bible.
 

p_rehbein

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I'm not following you. Women are not forbidden to read scripture or talk about scripture. Jesus is the Word of God... the Word of God is the woman's husband. Yes, that's right the inerrant word of God, the bible is the physical manifestation of Jesus. The woman is supposed to let her husband teach her... she's supposed to read her bible.
Odd that you can follow the Apostle when he said let your women keep silence in church, and if they are to learn, they are to learn from their husbands at home............this IS NOT talking about anything OTHER than what it says........no "hidden translation........" Her husband is to teach her........nowhere did the Apostle tell women to read their Bibles...........nowhere....so, either you are not following Scripture, or you are molding it to fit your particular ideology.

Pretty simple actually..............
 
Nov 23, 2013
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There's nothing wrong with spreading the gospel but that's totally different than sitting in spiritual authority over a congregation. He does put limits on it... a woman is not to teach a man.[/QUOTE]


Who is this he you speak of? the Apostle? God? Shall we revisit God's view in the 3rd Chapter of Galatians? Shall we revisit how the Apostle clearly identified these instructions as "traditions?"
Yeah let's revisit it, because I don't know what you're talking about. The bible puts limits on what women can do, they can't teach and they can't usurp authority over the man. That's what the bible says, not me. I just roll with.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
 

p_rehbein

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Sadly, I cant really consider the idea of women being allowed to preach because its all the personal feelings of people over Gods word. I still havent found any reason to believe He wanted opposite of what He taught.

The question was do you think its right for a woman to be a pastor? I do not know, but God tells us that He does not want it. There is no greek nor jew, no slave nor free, no male nor female, for all are one in Christ. but that never did away with the roles given to us by God. That just means He does not hold one group with favoritism over the other, I believe. But I do not believe that means you are now free to live as you see fit, and not Him.

God tells us He is unchanging. And keep in mind I dont even have the desire to lead or any of these things. Id only like to do whats right by God, and that would be to live by saying "the Lord says".


Why would people be so offended by what God has asked for?

Are you speaking of God or the Apostle? Seem to be confusing the two.............and that second part is self contradictory.....but you may not realize that.......... :) And your understanding of Galatians is way off in my opinion. Try reading what the Apostle taught about the differences between carnal and spiritual Christians...........that may help.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Odd that you can follow the Apostle when he said let your women keep silence in church, and if they are to learn, they are to learn from their husbands at home............this IS NOT talking about anything OTHER than what it says........no "hidden translation........" Her husband is to teach her........nowhere did the Apostle tell women to read their Bibles...........nowhere....so, either you are not following Scripture, or you are molding it to fit your particular ideology.

Pretty simple actually..............
That would be your opinion and hey that don't bother me if you want to believe that. But I see more than you see in that passage. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I see many things you don't see.

You seem to not understand from other scripture that "the woman" can mean either the physical woman or the spiritual woman or both as in this case. Remember, we are the bride of Christ... that makes us female.
 

p_rehbein

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Yeah let's revisit it, because I don't know what you're talking about. The bible puts limits on what women can do, they can't teach and they can't usurp authority over the man. That's what the bible says, not me. I just roll with.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Corinthians 14:34 .) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 .) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:8 .) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 .) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 .) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 .) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 .) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


1 Corinthians 11:16 .) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Galatians 3:23 .) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 .) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 .) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Excerpt from Article:

[h=2]Female disciples[edit][/h]The Gospels acknowledge that women were among Jesus' earliest followers. Jewish women disciples, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, had accompanied Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means.[SUP][Lk. 8:1–3][/SUP] Although the details of these gospel stories may be questioned, in general they reflect the prominent historical roles women played in Jesus' ministry as disciples. There were women disciples at the foot of the cross. Women were reported to be the first witnesses to the resurrection, chief among them again Mary Magdalene. She was not only "witness," but also called a "messenger" of the risen Christ.[SUP][2][/SUP]
From the beginning of the Early Christian church, women were important members of the movement. As time went on, groups of Christians organized within the homes of believers. Those who could offer their home for meetings were considered important within the movement and assumed leadership roles.[SUP][3][/SUP] Such a woman was Lydia of Philippi, a wealthy dealer in purple cloth. After hearing Paul preach, she and her household were baptized.(Acts 16: 11-15)
The earliest Christian movement, most notably Paul’s movement, was very attractive for wealthy women and widows. They often opened their houses for worship by particular religious movements.[SUP][4][/SUP] According to Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, in the 1st century a woman's place was in the home and the otherwise private areas of life. Turning the private domestic setting into the public religious setting opened up opportunities for religious leadership. Pauline Christianity did not honour its rich patron; instead, it worked within a "motif of reciprocity"[SUP][4][/SUP] by offering leadership roles, dignity and status in return for patronage. Through building up their own house church, women could experience relative authority, social status and political power and renewed dignity within Paul's movement. This concept is reflected in Paul's relationship with Phoebe, Chloe and Rufus's mother.

Found here:


[h=3]Paul the Apostle and women - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/h]



Acts 18:24 .) And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 .) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 .) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

John 4:28 .) The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 .) Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30 .) Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.
31 .) In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
32 .) But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
33 .) Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
34 .) Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
35 .) Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36 .) And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 .) And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
38 .) I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.
39 .) And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 .) So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 .) And many more believed because of his own word;
42 .) And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world
.
43 .) Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.
 

Yeraza_Bats

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Dec 11, 2014
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I still have not found any reason to go against what God has taught, but when going through bible verses on my own, I actually did find a verse that talked about rebelling against God being carnal, and following Him being spiritual.

Anywho, God does hand down authority to others and asks those whose authority is handed over to follow who He puts on charge. There are stories where God tells people He is sending an angel, and He commands them to follow the angels word.

When I think of being carnal, I think of following desires. When I think of being spiritual, I think of letting go of all desires, and merely following God. I do not have a desire to teach, or rule or anything. I would try to do it because God asked me too, but I dont seek it. But seeing people get so angry about it, its kinda a bummer to see. I remember the story of Martha and Mary, Martha was all worked up over getting the home ready, and Mary just sat and listened to Him, and because of this He praised her over Martha.

This conversation makes me think of Isaiah 48-8
"You were called rebels from birth"

Its not that I believe that God has placed men as higher beings than women, or that we are better or anything. God merely tells us He decides who He wants to be in charge, and that we should follow Him. I do not see the harm in this, and am not sure why anyone would feel such a need to fight it. I mean we shouldnt fight His will, and let Him decided whats best, right? And I have not found anything so far in the bible that says women can preach. But I did find in Acts that women will prophesy. So yes I do believe that they God can speak through them, but I still havent read that they can teach.

And its not a contradiction. God has love and compassion for anyone who comes to Him. But that didnt mean you dont have to follow His will. He still tells slaves to submit to their masters, He didnt tell them they no longer have to. Do you believe it is now okay to be transgender? If there were no male or female roles, wouldnt that make being trans okay with God? But He tells us He detests those who do it, it is what He showed me.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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Then you still have much reading and understanding to do/come to..........but keep going, at least you are making the effort and not serving up denominational ideology with a closed mind and heart and spirit...........

The Apostle taught of carnal/spiritual Christians........read his teachings............(couple of hints)


SAVED.................................................SANCTIFIED

CARNAL..............................................SPIRITUAL

God is a Spirit and to worship Him, we must worship Him in spirit and truth...........

"...........we have no such traditions............"


26 .) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
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Ok, that's enough for me for tonight on this subject............ :)
 
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Why couldn't they just promote full-scale gender egalitarian and feminism in their own day if they were going to go against cultural normal.

I don't think Paul would have campaigned for the right of women to vote. I don't think he would have campaigned for the right of men to vote either. Democracy comes from Athens, not Jerusalem. It's from Greek philosophy, not something God revealed. The kingdom of heaven is a kingdom. Jesus is King, not a democratically elected president.
The answer to your first point might be that perhaps they understood that not many would be receptive to gender equality for around 2,000 years. Women did not have the right to vote in the U.S. until 1920 on the national level. The same arguments and same bible verses used then to oppose women voting are used now to oppose female pastors.

Didn't Moses set up a form of government? How would you label that government? Sounds somewhat similar to a republic to me. The U.S is not a democracy, it is a republic.