Grace vs works!

[Angela53510]

Yes I have seen a couple on here that tell people they don't have to repent, get baptized, and confess their sins.
This is a false gospel message !!! .

OK! So I am asking you again, Kenneth, WHO are these imaginary people on Christian Chat that say we don't have to repent to be saved??

If you don't want to call them out in this thread, then PM me. Preferably with the quotes!

This straw man is really getting tiresome! You keep propping it up, over and over!!

NO ONE says that you don't need to repent! NO ONE! OK! I've read all these threads and the people who believe in eternal security are people who hunger and seek after God, and try to live their lives for him. Especially in this forum.

So don't be afraid to name names. I just don't believe you have any. And I will keep calling you out on this. Forever! I promise!

 

[SeaBass]

OK! So I am asking you again, Kenneth, WHO are these imaginary people on Christian Chat that say we don't have to repent to be saved??

If you don't want to call them out in this thread, then PM me. Preferably with the quotes!

This straw man is really getting tiresome! You keep propping it up, over and over!!

NO ONE says that you don't need to repent! NO ONE! OK! I've read all these threads and the people who believe in eternal security are people who hunger and seek after God, and try to live their lives for him. Especially in this forum.

So don't be afraid to name names. I just don't believe you have any. And I will keep calling you out on this. Forever! I promise!

Repentance is a work. How many people, just in this thread, say one does not have to do any works (as repentance) to be saved????????

 

[BradC]

Again, this is based on nothing more than your opinion, just a another personal attack that has nothing to do with any bible discussion.

Those that are denying obedient works are a necessary part of salvation are the ones opposed to plain bible teachings.

I asked many times and will again

Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve either;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness


I serve #2, which do you serve?

I could demonstrate what it means to be personally attacked, but I don't think it would be a wise thing to do. If I did you would see the difference. If anything you were exhorted and admonished in a way that perhaps you are not use to. I did not observe any grace on your part and anything that would indicate a humble and contrite heart. Say anything you want about me but don't be a pseudo-professing Christian with all this rhetoric and erroneous pretense. You have been doing this for along time and others have chimed in but to no avail because you reject what they they have to offer.

 

[SeaBass]

I could demonstrate what it means to be personally attacked, but I don't think it would be a wise thing to do. If I did you would see the difference. If anything you were exhorted and admonished in a way that perhaps you are not use to. I did not observe any grace on your part and anything that would indicate a humble and contrite heart. Say anything you want about me but don't be a pseudo-professing Christian with all this rhetoric and erroneous pretense. You have been doing this for along time and others have chimed in but to no avail because you reject what they they have to offer.

Your last 2-3 posts have all been based on your assumption you are right and I am wrong....and nothing more. I have noticed there are too many threads, at least in my opinion, being started where the OP whines and opines about all the fussing and fighting on the forum. It is obvious to me the real intent of the OP is to claim whoever on the forum does not fall in line with the OP's personal beliefs is causing strife and division. Useless threads. Evidently you too are upset others here, including myself, do not fall in line with your personal opinions.

I was not "exhorted or admonished" but have personal lodged attacks made against me while proving NOTHING from the bible. You cannot prove your position from the bible so you makes these types of posts.

YOU now are being "exhorted and admonished" to answer my question, do serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness?

 

[BradC]

Your last 2-3 posts have all been based on your assumption you are right and I am wrong....and nothing more. I have noticed there are too many threads, at least in my opinion, being started where the OP whines and opines about all the fussing and fighting on the forum. It is obvious to me the real intent of the OP is to claim whoever on the forum does not fall in line with the OP's personal beliefs is causing strife and division. Useless threads. Evidently you too are upset others here, including myself, do not fall in line with your personal opinions.

I was not "exhorted or admonished" but have personal lodged attacks made against me while proving NOTHING from the bible. You cannot prove your position from the bible so you makes these types of posts.

YOU now are being "exhorted and admonished" to answer my question, do serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness?

Every single act of obedience is by grace through faith according to the promises of God. There is nothing to act upon through the obedience of faith without the promise of God. There is no obedience without the promise of God being trusted upon. Any obedience unto righteousness is according to God's promise and nothing else and those promises are all yea and amen because of mercy and grace. These promises that are all yea and amen are kept and fulfilled in us by the power of God because of His faithfulness and has nothing to do with us. We do not keep God's promise, He does, faithful is he who has promised and He has never failed one word of His good promise. So much for your boast in being obedient unto righteousness for all of it that you muster up in the flesh is nothing more than filthy smelly rags. But the righteousness that is by faith in the promises of God is what pleases God as a sweet savour and it is through those promises that we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[SeaBass]

Every single act of obedience is by grace through faith according to the promises of God. There is nothing to act upon through the obedience of faith without the promise of God. There is no obedience without the promise of God being trusted upon. Any obedience unto righteousness is according to God's promise and nothing else and those promises are all yea and amen because of mercy and grace. These promises that are all yea and amen are kept and fulfilled in us by the power of God because of His faithfulness and has nothing to do with us. We do not keep God's promise, He does, faithful is he who has promised and He has never failed one word of His good promise. So much for your boast in being obedient unto righteousness for all of it that you muster up in the flesh is nothing more than filthy smelly rags. But the righteousness that is by faith in the promises of God is what pleases God as a sweet savour and it is through those promises that we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Why all the obfuscation? Why cannot the faith only crowd answer a simple question? Do they serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Jason0047]

Most people understand the cross as it pertains to salvation, but have no idea of how it pertains to sanctification. They think that their works is what sanctifies them. Works are a result and not the cause.

Works is the Sanctiifcation process. But it is not our works that Sanctify us. It is God's works in us that Sanctifies us. It's Christ in us who deserves all the glory, honor, and power. It's why the elders cast their crowns down before Jesus.

 

[Angela53510]

Repentance is a work. How many people, just in this thread, say one does not have to do any works (as repentance) to be saved????????

Repentance is NOT a work! It is a gift of God by faith that enables us to turn from our wicked ways to follow Christ. I had no power within me to turn away from my life of sin, till God revealed himself to me. Then I knew the King of Kings, and the power of the Holy Spirit. I knew instantly I had to leave the evil I had been doing and follow God.

I could never have done it in my own strength. And I don't imagine anyone else here can. Repentance springs out of a love for the revealed and risen Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And every time I displease God, he shows me I need to repent. It's nothing I can continue to do in my own strength.

I can only praise God he set me free from sin and death. I am saved totally by grace, not by works! I repent because God tells me to and gives me the strength to do it.

 

[Jason0047]

Repentance is not a work. Repentance is a foundational minor action on our part in coming to the faith and or in some cases in mainting or restoring our right standing with God. However, Scripture never even hints that Repentance is a work. It takes no real effort to Repent. You don't have to re-arrange your schedule. You don't have to physically exert yourself. You don't have to learn a skill. You don't have to mentally challenge yourself. You don't have to get hired by a person to do it. It can happen easily almost anywhere and anytime between you and God in an instant. People normally do not feel tired sometimes like when they put in a full days work if they repented. It is about throwing yourself down before God's mercy. That is not work. If that is work then I would like to see what kind of job they have.

 

[p_rehbein]

My thoughts only...........

We are saved by Grace through faith, and that a gift from God...........not OF works........after salvation, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (when we receive Him) prepares (Sanctifies) us to produce good works which are a FRUIT of our salvation.

Good works are important to every believer, for God has purposed us..........He has a plan for us, and we must be open to realizing what His will is for us in this world, and then be obedient to His will.

My thoughts only.........

 

[MarcR]

Repentance is a work. How many people, just in this thread, say one does not have to do any works (as repentance) to be saved????????

Since faith is the gift of God (Ep 2:9) and conviction of sin is God's work Jn 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
KJV
Repentance, if a work, is not a saving work, because even recognizing that you have done wrong and resolving not to do it again in your own strength without faith accomplishes nothing with respect to salvation.

Repentance prompted by faith is a result of God's work

 

[MarcR]

Works contribute nothing to one's salvation; but true salvation will move you to do the work God has for you, as His servant. (Ep 2:10; Jas chapter 1)

 

[michael56]

Why all the obfuscation? Why cannot the faith only crowd answer a simple question? Do they serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace(through faith)

 

[Ella85]

Parents may have unconditional love for their children but that is not the case with God;

Jn 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

One CONDITIONALLY loves Christ by keeping His commandments.

Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

God has a general love for all men, Jn 3:16 but God has a special saving love for those that are His children that keep His commandments and a child of God can from that saving love so he must work to keep himself in that love of God.

That is not the case with God?

So is that why He sent His only Son to die for us ALL? Not some ....ALL.
Is that why He says love your neighbour.....and not only SOME?
Why is it that God specifically tells us to love our neighbour? He wants us to show the same love towards one another as He did for us.

How many times in the bible do we see, over and over again God forgiving.....and STILL loving His children, even blessing them after they have rebelled.

I don't know what your understanding of unconditional love is exactly, but from what I know is that God did not create us to MAKE us love him.

That would completely go against the big picture as to why He would give us the choice to decide between good and evil.
If He MADE us love Him, there would be no purpose for this fallen world and we would already be living in heaven with Him as His slaves.

God is love, not a monster.

 

[BradC]

Why all the obfuscation? Why cannot the faith only crowd answer a simple question? Do they serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Was there anything evasive or unclear as to what was said? You, like some others, are hung up on this faith without works is dead camouflage so that you don't have to trust God with all your heart in all things. You feel that total dependence on the work of Christ for righteousness and being lead of the Spirit in doing the will of God from the heart is weak and not enough and reveals instability and a lack of character on the believer's part (or that faith only crowd as you refer to it). You want to be able to do something on your own that signifies that you are cooperating with God through obedience to esteem yourself among the brethren. Sorry, but that is not how it works in the body of Christ. We humble ourselves before the cross and the mighty hand of God and he exalts us through grace.

The meek are those who God teaches and they are promoted and esteemed by grace because of an attitude of humility in the heart. They are the ones who take the lower seat and let God promote them and lift them up in due time. They are not looking to have an advantage over the brethren but rather they look to serve the brethren by laying their life down and washing their feet. They are not greater then their master and Christ learned obedience through the things he suffered in the plan of God. He learned it in the garden with the cup that he had to bare and through the slander and accusations that came at him through the Scribes and the Pharisees and through the works crowd of the Jews.

To walk uprightly is to walk by faith in God's promises trusting in the nature and character of the one who promised and those who do are given grace and glory and wisdom and honor. If we stumble yet trust in His promises, He will lift us up and give us grace. If the righteous fall they will not be utterly cast down because God is able to lift them up and set their feet on a rock and establish their goings. This is how the faith only crowd operates in the plan of God walking in faith obedience unto righteousness which keeps them from serving sin unto death. They actually have grown up and learned to trust God with all their heart and to lean not on their understanding. They have learned in the plan of God to acknowledge Him in all their ways and God directs their paths. Their testimony is that God is able to keep them and that they can do all things through Christ which strengthens them by grace and through faith in the promises of God. God is never slack concerning His promise as some would lead you to believe and has never forsaken those who have His imputed righteousness by faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Works do not save a person. Jesus saves. It's not us. Works are just the result of salvation.

Amen! Works are the result of salvation and not the means of salvation. Faith is the root and good works which follow are the fruit of salvation. Saved through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[forsha]

OK! So I am asking you again, Kenneth, WHO are these imaginary people on Christian Chat that say we don't have to repent to be saved??

If you don't want to call them out in this thread, then PM me. Preferably with the quotes!

This straw man is really getting tiresome! You keep propping it up, over and over!!

NO ONE says that you don't need to repent! NO ONE! OK! I've read all these threads and the people who believe in eternal security are people who hunger and seek after God, and try to live their lives for him. Especially in this forum.

So don't be afraid to name names. I just don't believe you have any. And I will keep calling you out on this. Forever! I promise!

Angela, I guess that I am one of them, however, When a person who already has eternal life, repents for not obeying God's commandments, and God forgives them, this brings about a salvation (deliverance). Any salvation is a deliverance, our eternal deliverance and our timely deliverances. When a child of God commits a sin it does not separate him from his eternal security, but it does separate him from his relationship with his God, until he is forgiven. Repentance is not the cause of eternal deliverance, but it is a product of having already been saved eternally.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Was there anything evasive or unclear as to what was said? You, like some others, are hung up on this faith without works is dead camouflage so that you don't have to trust God with all your heart in all things. You feel that total dependence on the work of Christ for righteousness and being lead of the Spirit in doing the will of God from the heart is weak and not enough and reveals instability and a lack of character on the believer's part (or that faith only crowd as you refer to it). You want to be able to do something on your own that signifies that you are cooperating with God through obedience to esteem yourself among the brethren. Sorry, but that is not how it works in the body of Christ. We humble ourselves before the cross and the mighty hand of God and he exalts us through grace.

The meek are those who God teaches and they are promoted and esteemed by grace because of an attitude of humility in the heart. They are the ones who take the lower seat and let God promote them and lift them up in due time. They are not looking to have an advantage over the brethren but rather they look to serve the brethren by laying their life down and washing their feet. They are not greater then their master and Christ learned obedience through the things he suffered in the plan of God. He learned it in the garden with the cup that he had to bare and through the slander and accusations that came at him through the Scribes and the Pharisees and through the works crowd of the Jews.

To walk uprightly is to walk by faith in God's promises trusting in the nature and character of the one who promised and those who do are given grace and glory and wisdom and honor. If we stumble yet trust in His promises, He will lift us up and give us grace. If the righteous fall they will not be utterly cast down because God is able to lift them up and set their feet on a rock and establish their goings. This is how the faith only crowd operates in the plan of God walking in faith obedience unto righteousness which keeps them from serving sin unto death. They actually have grown up and learned to trust God with all their heart and to lean not on their understanding. They have learned in the plan of God to acknowledge Him in all their ways and God directs their paths. Their testimony is that God is able to keep them and that they can do all things through Christ which strengthens them by grace and through faith in the promises of God. God is never slack concerning His promise as some would lead you to believe and has never forsaken those who have His imputed righteousness by faith.

Unbelievable, you have used 493 words in your post, and still have not answered the simple 10 word question "Do they serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?"

Can you not answer the question? it has two answers "they serve sin unto death" <--- 5 words, or "they serve obedience unto righteousness" <--- 5 words...

The answer need not be longer than 5 words?

 

[Jabberjaw]

How many times in the bible do we see, over and over again God forgiving.....and STILL loving His children, even blessing them after they have rebelled.

Show where in the bible God forgave anyone of a sin against God without some form of repentance, the forgiving was conditional upon a change, turning from rebelling to obeying... show where it was ever otherwise.

 

[forsha]

Yes, God's plan for men to be saved through Christ existed before the world began. You say yourself that "God purposes things and he purposed that Christ would die on the cross for the eternal salvation of all of those that God gave him."

God purposed Christ to die on the cross, it was "planned" and did not happen by accident.

"It is finished"
What was finished? The law of Moses (Colossians 2:14-16), the sabbath institution (Amos 8:5-9), the works of his personal ministry, the power of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), the atonement for the sins of the whole world (Hebrews 9:26), the purchase price for the church (Acts 20:28), and the remission of sins prior to Calvary, as well as the remission of whatever sins will be remitted for all eternity - these are among the things finished that day on the cross of Christ.
Coffman Commentary.

The ones given to Christ and Christ keeps are the ones that obey Him, Heb 5:9. No one is given randomly or for no particular reason to Christ.

A person does not obey God until God puts his Spirit within him at his regeneration ,(born again). The carnal man will never obey God, and indeed he can not obey him (1 Cor 2:14). The only way that a carnal man can become spiritual is explained in Eph 2:5. The scriptures will never harmonize until you deny man's works and give God all of the credit for your eternal salvation. Heb 9:26 says nothing about the whole world. Jesus said he was sent to do his Father's will and explains what his Father's will was and that was to redeem all those that he gave him which Jesus accomplished his Father's will by going to the cross. Did he not finish his Father's will? I understand that you are still trying to help Jesus do his Father's will but I don't think Jesus needs any help.