Grace vs works!

[mailmandan]

Comparing Mt 12:41 with Jonah 3:8-10 it is too painfully obvious that repentance is a work a work God saw.

So you make no distinction between repentance and the fruit of repentance (works)? Matthew 3:8 says "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. You simply define repentance as these works which are described as fruit? Acts 26:20 says ..I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. You simply define repentance as these deeds? Jonah 3:10 - When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. God saw that they truly repented demonstrated by their actions. If they would have refused to turn from their evil ways, then they would have demonstrated that they did not repent at the preaching of Jonah.

Just as in Mk 2:1-5 the men did work in removing the roof and lowered the sick man and Jesus "saw their faith" what Jesus saw was the WORK those men did calling that work faith. So both faith and repentance are both called WORKS, works that could be seen.

So you simply define faith as works? The work they did demonstrated their faith yet Jesus saw beyond the work itself and knew the intentions of their hearts. He saw they had faith and they demonstrated it by this work. They showed their faith by this work (James 2:18) but faith is not simply defined as works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. If we accomplish a lifetime of multiple acts of obedience/works as a Christian, these works are a manifestation of our faith, but not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and were unable to accomplish a lifetime of multiple acts of obedience/works they still had faith. You couldn't say, they did not accomplish these multiple acts of obedience/works and faith "is" these multiple acts of obedience/works, so they did not have faith.

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." - *By your words you will be condemned. Demonstrative evidence of no faith.

Luke 23:40 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." - *By your words you will be justified. Demonstrative evidence of faith. Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died that you simply define as faith? If the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he was unable to accomplish because of his premature death. Faith is faith and works which follow are works.

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Upon repenting and turning to God one MUST "do works meet for repentance". To do works meet for repentance means one must conduct his life in a manner that shows he has repented, to live as 'men who have repented should live', show fruits of having repented. Part of these works/fruits in how one lives is keeping the commands of Christ. If a man does not live as one who has repented in doing works/having fruits in keeping Christ's commands, then he never repented. If one does not work in keeping Christ's commands, he does not even love Christ, Jn 14:15 much less repented.

I agree. By bearing fruit in keeping with repentance, we demonstrate that we truly have repented. 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who SAYS, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

2 Cor 12:20 "For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:"

What good would it have done these Corinthians to simply "mentally" determine not to continue to commit these sins, yet continue to actively commit them? None.

That is not true repentance. True repentance results in a change of actions, as we read in Acts 26:20. Practicing sin is not the fruit of genuine repentance (1 John 3:9) but practicing righteousness is (1 John 3:10).

Repentance therefore cannot be just some mental process and nothing more.

- The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

It requires a change in behaviour, change in how one acts, change in what one does...a change that requires WORKS.

The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance - to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind.

No work = no repentance = no salvation

The work actually follows repentance unto life. Do lost unbelievers keep His commandments or saved believers? It's still no repentance = no salvation = no works/fruit of repentance/salvation. These works which are the fruit of repentance are produced from a child of God, not a child of the devil (1 John 3:10).

 

[mailmandan]

Again, you are a (1) servant of sin unto death or (2) servant of obedience unto righteousness.

(1) servant of sin unto death - descriptive of children of the devil. (2) servant of obedience unto righteousness - descriptive of children of God.

I serve obedience unto righteousness.

Placing faith (belief, trust, reliance) in works for salvation instead of exclusively in Christ does not equate to serve obedience unto righteousness. Apart from saving faith in Christ, we remain servants of sin unto death no matter how so-called obedience that we attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to be saved by works. I'm sure these many people in Matthew 7:22 thought they served obedience unto righteousness as well, yet look what they were trusting in to save them. Their WORKS. Sound familiar?

Faith only supporters continue to obfuscate for their faith only doctrine has rules them out serving obedience unto righteousness and they are not about to admit they serve sin unto death.

Salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST "alone" is not to be confused with "faith only" - per James which is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith that remains "alone" in the sense that it is barren of works. *Faith that "trusts in Christ alone for salvation" and not in works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and an empty profession of faith that remains "alone" in the sense that it is "barren of works" (James 2:14-20) are two separate "alone's" in connection with two different things.

How does one become a servant of obedience unto righteousness? By faith or by works?

We must first obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) in order to become righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Once again, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. Once again, when we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." You continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. That continues to be your stumbling block.

This is why you also obfuscated with the rest of your post and did not answer if you serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

I will gladly answer your question, in which the answer was already obvious. I am a servant of obedience unto righteousness and not a servant of sin unto death. I don't continue to serve obedience in order to become saved by works but BECAUSE I have been saved through faith.