Grace vs works!

Vernon · Feb 13, 2015

water baptism puts the flesh to death. Holy Spirit baptism brings the soul to life.

Neither are necessary for salvation, God saved us in Jesus Christ. Nothing we do can save us, it is by the grace of God that anyone is saved.

water and Spirit baptism is evidence of our salvation not necessities. God puts our flesh to death and brings life to our soul without our help. Jesus said: God could bring life to the rocks of the ground if he so desired.

Our faith and good works are evidence of our salvation, not necessary for our salvation.

It is by grace alone.

Christ be with you always.

Viligant_Warrior · Feb 13, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

How much sin is "too much sin"??

kennethcadwell said:

You misread 1 John badly to have this opinion.

kennethcadwell said:

There's your error, every single time. The doing part of faith is "works." Works, as Paul and all the other New Testament writers say, do not save, and by the very implication, do not maintain salvation. You force the Gospel to contradict itself, in your view. It does not. Works are what God prepared beforehand -- before our salvation -- for us walk in, to His glory and honor.

You persist in error, and will not accept correction. You lift verses out of context, which is the same thing as lying about the word of God. I'm about done with you. You are Johnny One-Note. This is the only tune you know. You must be a sad, edgy, frightened Christian indeed, to continue in such nonsense.

psychomom · Feb 13, 2015

posthuman said:

as are we all, post.

love, mom

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Yes I said that to Angela because I do not belittle and demean, and call others name in posts to other people in this forum like you do. What I do, and have always done is call you out personally and give you a chance to change and apologize. You still have not changed even though I have prayed for you, and you never have apologized to me personally.
The belittling and demeaning comments are hate speech rather you admit it or not, and the way you post it carries and shows that emphasis as well.
Look you have your opinion based on your scriptures you use, and I have my opinion based on the many that I use and have posted. This does not make me a heretic, false, or a liar just because I disagree with you on somethings.
Many of the early church leaders did not believe in OSAS either, and I truthfully believe the Apostle Paul was one of them because he constantly "warned believers" about falling back or staying in a life of willful sins.
Most of his writings were to believers, as he calls them brothers, sisters, and brethren. Why would Paul warn other believers including Apostle Timothy about continuing or returning to a sin nature if they would get eternal life no matter what ?

forsha · Feb 13, 2015

Jabberjaw said:

As I see it, your theology is full of contradictions, is not that why this is called a discussion forum? God accomplishes all his will, Dan 4:35. and I think you will agree with me that the scriptures will back up the fact that all mankind will not go to heaven. If it be God's will that all mankind go to heaven, then all mankind will go to heaven. If it were not for God choosing an elect family we would spend eternity in hell.

MarcR · Feb 13, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Ac 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV
In this verse, the word translated as 'for' is εἰς, which can mean many things including: in light of or in recognition of. if in order to receive were intended προς would have been used. NO LIE THERE!

1 Pe 3:19-21
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV
In verse 20 the word translated as by is διά which also means 'from' . it was the ark wherein eight souls were saved from water. the ark was a figure of fath that leads to obedience.

the like figure in verse 21 is faith that leads to obedience
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Ηό καί ὐμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς

wich also us the like figure now doth save baptism not of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I prefer the KJV but sometimes the translators let their theology drive their translation instead of straightforwardly translating the text.

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

[h=1]1 John 2 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h]2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
[h=3]The Test of Knowing Him[/h]3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren,[a] I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.[b] 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
[h=3]Their Spiritual State[/h]12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.

[h=3]Do Not Love the World[/h]15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
[h=3]Deceptions of the Last Hour[/h]18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
[h=3]Let Truth Abide in You[/h]24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.
[h=3]The Children of God[/h]28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. (Cross references Matthew 10:22, Matthew 7:21)

dcontroversal · Feb 13, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Yes I said that to Angela because I do not belittle and demean, and call others name in posts to other people in this forum like you do. What I do, and have always done is call you out personally and give you a chance to change and apologize. You still have not changed even though I have prayed for you, and you never have apologized to me personally.
The belittling and demeaning comments are hate speech rather you admit it or not, and the way you post it carries and shows that emphasis as well.
Look you have your opinion based on your scriptures you use, and I have my opinion based on the many that I use and have posted. This does not make me a heretic, false, or a liar just because I disagree with you on somethings.
Many of the early church leaders did not believe in OSAS either, and I truthfully believe the Apostle Paul was one of them because he constantly "warned believers" about falling back or staying in a life of willful sins.
Most of his writings were to believers, as he calls them brothers, sisters, and brethren. Why would Paul warn other believers including Apostle Timothy about continuing or returning to a sin nature if they would get eternal life no matter what ?

Think what you want Kenneth.....no biggie to me......and I could care less what the early church leaders thought and or believed......so....you can keep working your way to heaven and I will keep trusting Jesus at his word while understanding salvation by faith dia grace and being born of INCORRUPTABLE seed...........!

michael56 · Feb 13, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Can a person have the Holy Spirit come upon them and speak in tongues as the disciples did at Pentecost if they are unsaved? Cornelius and his household spoke in tongues after the Holy Spirit came upon them before they were baptised in water.
What is better evidence a person is saved, water Baptism, or the Holy Spirit coming upon someone as He did the disciples at Pentecost?

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

[h=1]1 John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h]3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God![a] Therefore the world does not know us,[b] because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
[h=3]Sin and the Child of God[/h]4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[h=3]The Imperative of Love[/h]10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not lovehis brother[c] abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
[h=3]The Outworking of Love[/h]16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know[d] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us[e] commandment.
[h=3]The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error[/h]24Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

michael56 said:

The Apostles and disciples at Pentecost were baptized by John the baptist, or Jesus disciples before then.

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

dcontroversal said:

You didn't even answer the question, as I state how Paul constantly warned believers not unbelievers in his epistles about continuing in or returning to a life of willful sins. He even warned Timothy in both epistles to him about not getting caught back up in sins, and Timothy is a fellow Apostle.
So once again why would Paul warn believers of this if sin has no meaning or danger on ones salvation ???

michael56 · Feb 13, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

You haven't addressed the question. Cornelius and his household had the Holy Spirit descend on them and they spoke in tongues as the disciples did at Pentecost, BEFORE they were baptised in water. In your view can an unsaved person have the Holy Spirit come upon them and they speak in tongues?

eternally-gratefull · Feb 13, 2015

Thanks kenny.

Thanks for posting that a person living in sin has never seen or known God (have never been saved)

A person who is born of God can not live in sin.

Great truths.

as for the up..

Grace means undeserved favor, or mercy, Thus it can not be of works, because grace is something which you can never earn, now matter how good you are. no matter how many times you confess your sins. No matter if you was baptised in water or not go to church or not, Follow Gods rules or not, You will still be unworthy of Gods love and his gift of eternal life, which can only be recieved by grace,

Anyone who teaches salvation can be lost, is teaching works, because they teach one can earn salvation by doing whatever they claim on must do to recieve it, or keep it after it was already given.

Which if one really thinks of it, How can you be saved, if your not really saved (it can be lost) Your not saved. What you have is a psuedo salvation, which is not salvation at all. If you were saved, then you could not suffer what it is you were saved from, in this case, Gods wrath.

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Feb 13, 2015

Brother Kenneth.......>GRACE=UNMERITED FAVOR< .......it's a....... free gift from God....... Not of works.......

Ephesians 2:8
τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9
οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.

not from works, so that no one can boast.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
"Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast. These things are not brought to pass by any thing done by us, therefore all boasting is shut out. All is the free gift of God, and the effect of being quickened by his power. It was his purpose, to which he prepared us, by blessing us with the knowledge of his will, and his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, or accuse it of any tendency to evil. All who do so, are without excuse."

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

[h=1]1 John 4 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h]4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
[h=3]Knowing God Through Love[/h]7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
[h=3]Seeing God Through Love[/h]12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
[h=3]The Consummation of Love[/h]17Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him[b] because He first loved us.
[h=3]

Obedience by Faith[/h]20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[c] he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

BradC · Feb 13, 2015

We will have to contend for the faith and being exercised in these matters helps develop our discernment in matters of sound doctrine. The plan of God in these last days will challenge us in these matters for the sake of Christ and the gospel. We must be skillful in the words of righteousness so that we can be sound in the faith and feed others when God calls upon us. I am thankful for these exchanges and am so encouraged by the faith of others who have the same Spirit.

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

michael56 said:

They still were commanded to be baptized in water by Peter, as it is part of the believers process of love and obedience in the faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation.....

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

Grace is a free gift as it was given by God who sent His Son to die for us on the cross by through Him we can receive remission of sins. We did absolutely nothing to deserve His Son dying for our sins.
I am not denying that about grace, but what some do not want to look at and appreciate is the truth within His word that faith that is true and rooted in Christ is an active working faith. Not a dead, unactive, unproducing, and disobedient to His teachings faith. A dead non-active faith leads to the second death and not eternal life.

kennethcadwell · Feb 13, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

I will ask you the same question as I asked Dcon twice now that he has not answered, maybe you can answer it.

Why does Paul warn believers including another Apostle in Timothy about continuing in or returning to a life of willful sins if they do not mean nothing toward one's salvation ?

And why does Paul say multiple times that only if you continue in the faith will you have eternal life, if falling away has no meaning toward keeping eternal life ?

Grace vs works!

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