Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???
- Thread starter Atwood
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Re: WATCH FOR THE SEABASS "SO" THE BAZZFAZZ SO
Phil 2:7,8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
Again, if all men are born with sin/deprave nature so was Christ, else these two passages are lying. Christ was "made in the likeness of man, fashioned as a man, made like unto His brethren" and if His brethren were born sinners/depraved so was Christ.
Nowhere ever does Paul say each and every man is born a sinner/born totally depraved.
Phil 2:7,8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
Again, if all men are born with sin/deprave nature so was Christ, else these two passages are lying. Christ was "made in the likeness of man, fashioned as a man, made like unto His brethren" and if His brethren were born sinners/depraved so was Christ.
Nowhere ever does Paul say each and every man is born a sinner/born totally depraved.
Last edited:
F
Let me see if I can make it a bit more clearly. In Eph 1, before God even spoke the world into existence he choose an elect people, not because by his foreknowledge of seeing who would accept him because God looked down on the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God, They are all gone aside, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no not one. Ps 14:2-3. These are the people that God choose his elect from and sent his Son to redeem them back to him, so he would have a people that would give him praise and honor. Those that God choose are the same ones that he gave to his Son to die for their sins, John 6:39. Christ's death on the cross has a limited atonement, those that God gave him, his elect, not all mankind, and not the carnal man that would accept him because the carnal man, void of the Spirit can not discern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14. I do not expect you to believe this, unless it is revealed to you by the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of you. Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes, even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight. I do not understand a lot about God, as why he does and does not do, and especially why he does not reveal this doctrine to but a few. I hope this gives you more insight as to how I believe. I believe this doctrine to have more comfort, and peace of mind than any other doctrine I have heard.
F
I have a question for you. Did Christ die on the cross to pay for all of the sins of those that God gave him? If you answered, yes. then how is one of those sins going to keep you from heaven if Jesus paid for them, did he die in vain? Do not come back to me with the statement that Jesus's work on the cross was an offering for man's acceptance because his offering was to God, for God's acceptance. and not man's
Jesus was the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the whole world. But does that mean everyone is forgiven? No. People have to receive the gift and properly give that gift proper care like all relationships deserve. For the gift is Jesus Christ who is the source of salvation. We abide in Christ and we have life. If one chooses to change their mind and serve sin and go back to their old way of life, then Christ is not going to stop them and or take away their free will choice. For Scripture says, choose this day whom ye will serve. This was said to believers and not unbeleivers. For Jesus said no man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other. In fact, the Jews were cut off because of unbelief. We gentile believers are admonished in Scripture to continue in His goodness or we can be cut off, too. Hebrews 10:38 says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." This is not talking about being out of fellowship and having salvation still. The next verse says this drawing back is unto perdition. In fact, 1 John 1:7 says in order for all your sin to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ you have to walk in the light as he is in the light. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. Meaning, he will forgive you if you confess your sin. 1 John 1-3 does not teach that you can abide in sin and still be saved by just having a mental acknowledgment that Jesus is your Savior. Nowhere does it teach that.
Last edited:
For nowhere does Scripture teach future sin is forgiven you. That is a doctrine of devils which gives a person the thinking they can live life however they please and still make it into heaven. But it doesn't work like that, though.
Now, some may argue here that they are not teaching a licentious gospel. But from my experience they never say holiness is a requirement as a part of having a true faith from the beginning of the debate or conversation. Also, it is never the thrust of their debate at any point, either. Usually I have to twist their arm to force them to say holiness is a requirement. That's the problem I have with the OSAS teachings. Many will say they do not teach immorality. But if one is silent about living holy and says future sin is forgiven for a person, then that person is going to do evil with the thinking they are saved. So if a believer does teach OSAS and mentions nothing about holiness it will lead the new hearer of God's Word down the wrong path.
Now, some may argue here that they are not teaching a licentious gospel. But from my experience they never say holiness is a requirement as a part of having a true faith from the beginning of the debate or conversation. Also, it is never the thrust of their debate at any point, either. Usually I have to twist their arm to force them to say holiness is a requirement. That's the problem I have with the OSAS teachings. Many will say they do not teach immorality. But if one is silent about living holy and says future sin is forgiven for a person, then that person is going to do evil with the thinking they are saved. So if a believer does teach OSAS and mentions nothing about holiness it will lead the new hearer of God's Word down the wrong path.
Last edited:
K
[h=1]2 Peter 1:5-11[/h]5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
V
A damnable lie!
Forgiveness -- the Greek afesiß, transliterated aphesis -- is in the aorist tense, meaning it is a one-time forgiveness with continuous consequences. As such, it covers all sin. Your own doctrine is nothing less than heresy, best described by your own words:
It negates the work of Christ on the cross and puts the responsibility of eternal life in the hands of the believer. That is the lie, that is the conspiracy against God. You should be ashamed of your false teaching, but instead you put it out as truth, and you deceive many.
Members and Guests, do not be deluded by this heresy! Reject this false teacher's words! Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned.
However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven.
Colossians 1 NASB
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Forgiveness -- the Greek afesiß, transliterated aphesis -- is in the aorist tense, meaning it is a one-time forgiveness with continuous consequences. As such, it covers all sin. Your own doctrine is nothing less than heresy, best described by your own words:
It negates the work of Christ on the cross and puts the responsibility of eternal life in the hands of the believer. That is the lie, that is the conspiracy against God. You should be ashamed of your false teaching, but instead you put it out as truth, and you deceive many.
Members and Guests, do not be deluded by this heresy! Reject this false teacher's words! Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned.
However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven.
1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
What would be the point for Christians being told to continue to walk (present tense) in the light whereby Christ's blood can conditionally continue to cleanse (present tense) away all sins if all the sins a Christian ever commits have already been forgiven?
Acts 8:22, why would Simon be told to repent if all his sins had already been forgiven? Or the church in Rev 2:5;16; Rev 3:3,19 commanded to repent?
What would be the point for Christians being told to continue to walk (present tense) in the light whereby Christ's blood can conditionally continue to cleanse (present tense) away all sins if all the sins a Christian ever commits have already been forgiven?
Acts 8:22, why would Simon be told to repent if all his sins had already been forgiven? Or the church in Rev 2:5;16; Rev 3:3,19 commanded to repent?
Last edited:
V
I guess I forgot to mention, "walk" is also of the aorist tense, and refers to the moment we believed.
Add to this the fact the word foß -- transliterated phos -- is used metaphorically in reference to our walking in it. The metaphor is of "Light" as the ability we have in Christ to discern and understand moral and spiritual truth. It is not physical in nature, it does not translate to a tangible act that can be defined "sin" or "righteousness." So we by a one-time exposure to the "Light" -- that is, Christ -- live with an ability to choose "right" or "wrong" that, prior to Christ, we did not have.
So again and as usual, you're dead wrong.
Add to this the fact the word foß -- transliterated phos -- is used metaphorically in reference to our walking in it. The metaphor is of "Light" as the ability we have in Christ to discern and understand moral and spiritual truth. It is not physical in nature, it does not translate to a tangible act that can be defined "sin" or "righteousness." So we by a one-time exposure to the "Light" -- that is, Christ -- live with an ability to choose "right" or "wrong" that, prior to Christ, we did not have.
So again and as usual, you're dead wrong.
Heb 7:27 "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."
The idea that Christ died once for the sins of men does not mean all sins of man are all forgiven, past, present future. The Hebrew writer is making a contrast between Christ's sacrifice and those of the OT law. Those animal sacrifices of the OT law were made for the sins of the people had to be done over and over and over again yet Christ need die just once for the sins of man. Christ need not die over and over again for the sins of man. Christ shed His blood once and for those that are baptized for remission of sins have that blood to remit all their past sins and those that continue to walk in the light have that blood to continue to wash away all sins committed thereafter.
Romans 7:18 [SUP] [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
The free will, or the will, is described here as a carnal thing. One that can't perform that which is good.
So how is that which is good performed? That which is good can only be performed, and caused, by God.
Ezekiel 36:25-27
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The good we perform, if we do indeed perform good, is not attributable to our will but caused by God and His Work.
This is a beautiful thing, if you can see it. I suppose it could be a bit of a slap to the pride...
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Their heart is far from me... Interesting thing, the heart.
Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Is it your work, or is it God's Work?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Seems like really good works, doesn't it? But was it from the will of men or caused by God?
Matthew 7:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
What is this good fruit?
The free will, or the will, is described here as a carnal thing. One that can't perform that which is good.
So how is that which is good performed? That which is good can only be performed, and caused, by God.
Ezekiel 36:25-27
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The good we perform, if we do indeed perform good, is not attributable to our will but caused by God and His Work.
This is a beautiful thing, if you can see it. I suppose it could be a bit of a slap to the pride...
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Their heart is far from me... Interesting thing, the heart.
Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Is it your work, or is it God's Work?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Seems like really good works, doesn't it? But was it from the will of men or caused by God?
Matthew 7:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
What is this good fruit?
V
OK, I owe you an apology on that one. I looked at the wrong entry in my Greek lexicon. You're right, it is present tense, and in this verse, it means "living one's life" in sanctification, growth in Christ.
it is taking steps toward maturity. “Light” in the Bible can be a metaphor for life, happiness, righteousness, or understanding. The Bible is clear that light comes from the Lord God.
He is the opposite of evil. Putting it all together, “walking in the light” means “growing in holiness and maturing in the faith as we follow Jesus.” It has no connotation of obedience to a command or a law, but becoming more Christlike. Which still makes your view incorrect.
it is taking steps toward maturity. “Light” in the Bible can be a metaphor for life, happiness, righteousness, or understanding. The Bible is clear that light comes from the Lord God.
James 1, NASB
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
He is the opposite of evil. Putting it all together, “walking in the light” means “growing in holiness and maturing in the faith as we follow Jesus.” It has no connotation of obedience to a command or a law, but becoming more Christlike. Which still makes your view incorrect.
Where do you get "αφεσιν" is in the Aorist tense?
N-ASF (Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes)
Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Accusative
Number: Singular
Gender: Feminine
Word: αφεσιν
G859 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries)
G859 ἄφεσις aphesis (af'-es-is) n.
1. freedom
2. (figuratively) pardon
[from G863]
KJV: deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission
Root(s): G863
Emphases mine...
Last edited: