Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[Viligant_Warrior]

One of the facts of the truth is that all scriptures that are inspired of God will not contradict each other. All does mean "all", such as, all that is in this room, all that are using this forum, all of the inhabitants of the earth, all of the elect family. Do you get the idea?

Absolutely. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, however, offers no such restriction nor caveat. "All men" does indeed mean "all men," or, given the inclusiveness of all humans in the Greek pronoun anqropoß even though it is masculine in nature, "all people." That God's will and grace can be thwarted, and was often in the Bible, is undeniable, meaning that man does indeed have the ability to say "No" to God.

 

[forsha]

Good scripture. Where did you go forsha? Seems like you pulled out of our good discussion in the "working out our salvation" thread.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105397-working-out-our-salvation-11.html#post1904983

Sorry, Tribesman, I guess that my only defense in that is my age and one tract mind. I really do enjoy our studies together.

 

[forsha]

Key verse is 5 :

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

Quickened "together with Christ", God loved "all of us even in sin" that is "all men", meaning like 1 Timothy 2:3-4 His will was for "all men", but the only ones "quickened" says Paul, are those who with their own free will chose to follow Christ and "together with Christ" they were quickened... Not because they were a special choice of God... Paul is speaking to the church at Ephesus, to those who "chose to follow Christ", the saints (Eph. 1:1)

In Eph 1, Paul is indeed addressing the church at Ephesus telling them about what God did before he formed the world. that he choose us, but he did not choose a people because of their good works, those that would accept him. God by foreknowledge looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God, They are all gone aside, they were all gone aside, they are altogether become filthy, there is no one that doeth good, no, not one(Ps 14:2-3. This is who God had to choose from. The meaning of salvation is "deliverance". 1 Tim 2:4, even after we have been saved eternally, and have the Holy Spirit placed in us, we learn obedience step by step, and coming to the knowledge of the truth is a progress. There is a deliverance(salvation) that happens when we come to a knowledge of the truth delivering us from believing in false doctrines. this is a timely salvation. The carnal man, void of the Spirit will, and indeed, cannot choose to follow Christ having no ability to discern spiritual things, until he is born of the Spirit, according to 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[forsha]

Glad you brought that up. "The elect" are not individually addressed in the Bible. "The elect" in the grounding text of Reformed Theology, Romans 9-11, speaks not of individuals as elect, and in fact speaks only of Israel as "elect." Therefore, you base your doctrine on an erroneous interpretation of Scripture, which makes the doctrine itself erroneous.

I find your summary of my view insulting and ignorant.

Acts 7, NASB (Stephen, as he is being stoned to death)
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

Matthew 23
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

Proverbs 1
22 "How long , O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge? ...

27 When your dread comes like a storm And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you."
​

Explain how God's will and grace is "irresistible" again? Coerced love is a contradiction in terms. There’s no such thing as forced love. The idea that God has some irresistible grace – something that when you say, “I don’t want to be saved!” and He says, “Well, you’re going to be saved! I am going to make you love me!” – no, that’s ridiculous. That’s not love at all! You become a robot! God gives us the privilege of saying “no” so that we can have the delight of saying “yes."

Eph 2:1-5 should be proof enough that man, who is dead in sins, cannot respond to God with yes, or no. .

 

[forsha]

Absolutely. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, however, offers no such restriction nor caveat. "All men" does indeed mean "all men," or, given the inclusiveness of all humans in the Greek pronoun anqropoß even though it is masculine in nature, "all people." That God's will and grace can be thwarted, and was often in the Bible, is undeniable, meaning that man does indeed have the ability to say "No" to God.

Then, how do you explain Dan 4:35?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Then, how do you explain Dan 4:35?

So it is your contention that Daniel 4:35 negates all the verses I've posted showing that God's will is not always done? You are saying, in effect, that the Bible contradicts itself, or is in error?

Remember, I asked you first to account for 1 Timothy 2:3, 4 and you have not done so, but chosen (as is my experience with most monergists) attempted to distract from the question at hand.

 

[Jabberjaw]

In Eph 1, Paul is indeed addressing the church at Ephesus telling them about what God did before he formed the world. that he choose us, but he did not choose a people because of their good works, those that would accept him. God by foreknowledge looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God, They are all gone aside, they were all gone aside, they are altogether become filthy, there is no one that doeth good, no, not one(Ps 14:2-3. This is who God had to choose from. The meaning of salvation is "deliverance". 1 Tim 2:4, even after we have been saved eternally, and have the Holy Spirit placed in us, we learn obedience step by step, and coming to the knowledge of the truth is a progress. There is a deliverance(salvation) that happens when we come to a knowledge of the truth delivering us from believing in false doctrines. this is a timely salvation. The carnal man, void of the Spirit will, and indeed, cannot choose to follow Christ having no ability to discern spiritual things, until he is born of the Spirit, according to 1 Cor 2:14.

The only thing foreordained was the church, it was not an afterthought, it is Gods will for "all men" to be in the foreordained church 1 Tim 2:3-4, foreknowledge and foreordained are not one in the same, God may foreknow who will or will not be in His church, but those who are or are not in it, are or are not because of their own free will, their own choice, only those who "obey the Gospel" and become saints as did those Paul was speaking to in Ephesus (Eph. 1:1) and walk in the light as He (Jesus) was in the light, Christ will keep them cleansed 1 John 1:7 (in His foreordained church).

 

[MarcR]

Show me the Scriptures that say we have "free will." It sounds more like an American cultural thing than a biblical concept.

Free will means to me that we choose to go our own way. Anything else is obeying the call and commands of God.

I prefer to be a slave to Jesus, than have free will to sin.

"And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45

Angela,

Freewill, in the sense intended here, IMO is the opportunity to either accept and apply to ourselves Jesus' work of Salvation, on the cross; or attempt (unsuccessfully) to please God in our efforts.

Before the fall, freewill consisted in accepting and returning God's love through obedience; or trying to be as God and sinning in the failed attempt.

The alternative is the Calvanist view of election.

 

[forsha]

So it is your contention that Daniel 4:35 negates all the verses I've posted showing that God's will is not always done? You are saying, in effect, that the Bible contradicts itself, or is in error?

Remember, I asked you first to account for 1 Timothy 2:3, 4 and you have not done so, but chosen (as is my experience with most monergists) attempted to distract from the question at hand.

I have explained 1 Tim 2:3,4, I believe more than once, but here goes again. The "all men" is all of the elect men. If it were to mean all mankind, then you will have contradicting scriptures. This will harmonize with Dan 4:35. and the other scriptures. I have also explained more than once that "salvation" means "a deliverance" and not all salvation scriptures are referring to eternal, most are referring to timely deliverances, as does this one in 1 Tim 2:3,4. There is a deliverance from believing a false doctrine when a child of God comes unto the knowledge of the truth. Now that I have explained this again, what is your explanation of Dan 4:35, can you make it harmonize with the other scriptures?

 

[forsha]

The only thing foreordained was the church, it was not an afterthought, it is Gods will for "all men" to be in the foreordained church 1 Tim 2:3-4, foreknowledge and foreordained are not one in the same, God may foreknow who will or will not be in His church, but those who are or are not in it, are or are not because of their own free will, their own choice, only those who "obey the Gospel" and become saints as did those Paul was speaking to in Ephesus (Eph. 1:1) and walk in the light as He (Jesus) was in the light, Christ will keep them cleansed 1 John 1:7 (in His foreordained church).

Eph 1 says nothing about obeying the gospel to get eternal life. Eph 1:4, who are the "US"? In verse 5 the "US" are predetermined to be adopted as God's children by Jesus Christ. The payment for that adoption was paid for by Jesus on the cross and it was for all of those that God gave to his Son and Jesus said that he would not lose even one of them, but raise them up at the last day. All that Jesus died for will live with him in heaven.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Eph 1 says nothing about obeying the gospel to get eternal life. Eph 1:4, who are the "US"? In verse 5 the "US" are predetermined to be adopted as God's children by Jesus Christ. The payment for that adoption was paid for by Jesus on the cross and it was for all of those that God gave to his Son and Jesus said that he would not lose even one of them, but raise them up at the last day. All that Jesus died for will live with him in heaven.

Look at verse 1 ????

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

The entire epistle is "to the saints which are at Ephesus", this is the "Church" he is addressing, not those out side it, not those you may think were picked for it, but those who by obeying the Gospel of Christ and were added to His church such as those in Acts 2:41, what were they added to? Acts 2:47, the Church, but note he said "by the Lord" they were added.

Paul in Eph 2:4-5 expounds on this

Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

when he reminds them because God loved them even when they were sinners, and because of His grace sent his Son, let it it be known it was a joint effort, that of Christ and that of those who "obeyed" him when he said : "hath quickened us together with Christ" meaning those in the Ephesian church, "Saints/Christians" could not (would not) be in their "quickened" (brought to life or reconciled to God) if not "together with Christ", they could not do it themselves...

Like the Ephesians that obeyed the Gospel "reconciling with God together with Christ" making them saints, putting them into the "predestined church" that you and I or "all men" (1 Timothy 2:3-4") can be added to (Acts 2:47, 41) if man has the "will" to obey Him.

 

[Elin]

Let me see if I can make it a bit more clearly. In Eph 1, before God even spoke the world into existence he choose an elect people, not because by his foreknowledge of seeing who would accept him because God looked down on the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God, They are all gone aside, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no not one. Ps 14:2-3. These are the people that God choose his elect from and sent his Son to redeem them back to him, so he would have a people that would give him praise and honor. Those that God choose are the same ones that he gave to his Son to die for their sins, John 6:39. Christ's death on the cross has a limited atonement, those that God gave him, his elect, not all mankind, and not the carnal man that would accept him because the carnal man, void of the Spirit can not discern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14. I do not expect you to believe this, unless it is revealed to you by the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of you. Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes, even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight. I do not understand a lot about God, as why he does and does not do, and especially why he does not reveal this doctrine to but a few. I hope this gives you more insight as to how I believe. I believe this doctrine to have more comfort, and peace of mind than any other doctrine I have heard.

Agreed. . . .

 

[forsha]

Absolutely. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, however, offers no such restriction nor caveat. "All men" does indeed mean "all men," or, given the inclusiveness of all humans in the Greek pronoun anqropoß even though it is masculine in nature, "all people." That God's will and grace can be thwarted, and was often in the Bible, is undeniable, meaning that man does indeed have the ability to say "No" to God.

The carnal man in 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and indeed, cannot discern anything of a spiritual nature, so how does the carnal man become born again? Does he ask to be born again? No. Does he accept Jesus as his savior? No. Does he confess and repent? No. Does God ask him if he wants to be born again? No. Eph 2:1, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. Did God ask him if he wanted to be quickened? No. Did he have an option to say no? No. God says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, John 15:16. God does allow man to say 'no' to a lot of things, and it is God's decision to allow it, but I haven't found a scripture where he asks a man if he wants him to eternally save him.

 

[forsha]

So it is your contention that Daniel 4:35 negates all the verses I've posted showing that God's will is not always done? You are saying, in effect, that the Bible contradicts itself, or is in error?

Remember, I asked you first to account for 1 Timothy 2:3, 4 and you have not done so, but chosen (as is my experience with most monergists) attempted to distract from the question at hand.

There is a deliverance(salvation) in coming unto the knowledge of the truth, but it is not eternal salvation. The salvation scriptures will always ,seemingly, contradict each other unless you separate the eternal salvations from the timely salvations. Most salvation scriptures are referring to timely deliverances. "Salvation" means "a deliverance".

 

[forsha]

The only thing foreordained was the church, it was not an afterthought, it is Gods will for "all men" to be in the foreordained church 1 Tim 2:3-4, foreknowledge and foreordained are not one in the same, God may foreknow who will or will not be in His church, but those who are or are not in it, are or are not because of their own free will, their own choice, only those who "obey the Gospel" and become saints as did those Paul was speaking to in Ephesus (Eph. 1:1) and walk in the light as He (Jesus) was in the light, Christ will keep them cleansed 1 John 1:7 (in His foreordained church).

However you want to call it, individually or the church, it all adds up to the same thing. The church is not a building, nor is it a denomination, The church exists within each of as have been born of the Spirit, we are Jesus's bride and he is our husband, his church is his kingdom that he has been reigning as king ever sense he set it up. It was chosen before God formed the earth. God's elect people comprise the church.

 

[forsha]

Look at verse 1 ????

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

The entire epistle is "to the saints which are at Ephesus", this is the "Church" he is addressing, not those out side it, not those you may think were picked for it, but those who by obeying the Gospel of Christ and were added to His church such as those in Acts 2:41, what were they added to? Acts 2:47, the Church, but note he said "by the Lord" they were added.

Paul in Eph 2:4-5 expounds on this

Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

when he reminds them because God loved them even when they were sinners, and because of His grace sent his Son, let it it be known it was a joint effort, that of Christ and that of those who "obeyed" him when he said : "hath quickened us together with Christ" meaning those in the Ephesian church, "Saints/Christians" could not (would not) be in their "quickened" (brought to life or reconciled to God) if not "together with Christ", they could not do it themselves...

Like the Ephesians that obeyed the Gospel "reconciling with God together with Christ" making them saints, putting them into the "predestined church" that you and I or "all men" (1 Timothy 2:3-4") can be added to (Acts 2:47, 41) if man has the "will" to obey Him.

Those who were "dead in sins" were not the Ephesian brethren until God quickened them. The carnal man that is dead in sins (1 Cor 2:14) has no ability or will to obey God.

 

[tribesman]

Look at verse 1 ????

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

The entire epistle is "to the saints which are at Ephesus", this is the "Church" he is addressing, not those out side it, not those you may think were picked for it, but those who by obeying the Gospel of Christ and were added to His church such as those in Acts 2:41, what were they added to? Acts 2:47, the Church, but note he said "by the Lord" they were added.

Paul in Eph 2:4-5 expounds on this

Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

when he reminds them because God loved them even when they were sinners, and because of His grace sent his Son, let it it be known it was a joint effort, that of Christ and that of those who "obeyed" him when he said : "hath quickened us together with Christ" meaning those in the Ephesian church, "Saints/Christians" could not (would not) be in their "quickened" (brought to life or reconciled to God) if not "together with Christ", they could not do it themselves...

Like the Ephesians that obeyed the Gospel "reconciling with God together with Christ" making them saints, putting them into the "predestined church" that you and I or "all men" (1 Timothy 2:3-4") can be added to (Acts 2:47, 41) if man has the "will" to obey Him.

There was no "co effort" at all, it was entirely the work of God alone that these sinners were now saved by grace. In the context of the same chapter Paul reiterates this:

[h=3]Eph.2[/h][4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Dead people are totally unable to co-operate to anything before they are raised up, or quickened, from the dead. And all the credit and glory for that work goes to the One who did it. God will not share His glory with men. Paul clearly states that this is God's doing, not any man's doing, and that there is no room for any boasting of man. But still, some men want to boast in their own efforts, thinking salvation is conditional on their own works.