Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[Jabberjaw]

God chooses us. On our own, we only choose self and sin, and never choose to serve God. That's why He sent His Son, and that's why the Son sent the Spirit.

God chose ALL of us, not a select few of us :

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"all" means "all", not "selected few"

because man has free will, some men that choose to be slaves to sin, will not be of the selected few, because God will not "select" a sinner.

 

[Jeff_56]

i'm not sure, but i think promoting universal reconciliation is forbidden on this site.
it is certainly not found in yahweh's plan, word, or in yahshua.

also, more accurately see
[h=1]"Kenneth S. Wuest[/h] (from a devotions) Written by Kevin A. Krall on Thursday - November 13, 2014.


"1 TIMOTHY 2:1-4

New Testament An Expanded Translation - Kenneth S. Wuest
I exhort therefore, first of all,
that petitions be made continually for personal needs, prayers, intercessions,
giving of thanks on behalf of all men,
on behalf of kings and all those holding high positions,
in order that a quiet and peaceful life
we may be leading in every godliness and becoming deportment.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour God

who desires that all men be saved and
come to a precise and experiential knowledge of the truth"


[HR][/HR] "come to a precise and experiential knowledge of the truth"
Paul is not referring to some general type of knowledge, but the precise experiential kind only by knowing God on an intimate and personal level. It is not knowing everything "about" God that brings us into a relationship with God, but rather actually meeting, conversing and spending time in prayer with God.



--------------------------------------------------------

notice also that very few come to a precise and experiential knowledge of the truth in yahshua,
although this is directly what we who do are directed to pray for.

yahweh desires, so we in him also desire, and we pray as he directs, for all men
to turn to him to be saved.
the fact that multitudes never repent of worshiping and serving demons and the pope is also stated
directly and indirectly many times in yahweh's word,

so that multitudes are resurrected not to eternal life in peace and joy and righteousness,
but to shame and destruction.

we still continue to pray as yahweh permits, for whose who do not sin the sin that leads to death,

and those who yahweh chooses to show mercy to, receive mercy, and from him life in yahshua.

 

[tribesman]

God chose ALL of us, not a select few of us :

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"all" means "all", not "selected few"

because man has free will, some men that choose to be slaves to sin, will not be of the selected few, because God will not "select" a sinner.

And yet all men are not saved. Because the almighty free will of the sinner can hinder God to save sinners?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

And yet all men are not saved. Because the almighty free will of the sinner can hinder God to save sinners?

How would you explain the truth of 1 Timothy 2:3, 4? If, as it says, God would have all men be saved, then what besides man's ability to reject God would explain the fact that not all men are saved?

What I find amazing is that those who argue against Scripture such as this one have to redefine words rather than find Scriptural reasoning for not believing what it plainly says.

 

[tribesman]

Howwould you explain the truth of 1 Timothy 2:3, 4? If, as it says, God would have all men be saved, then what besides man's ability to reject God would explain the fact that not all men are saved?

It does not mean literally "all men" as in all-men-who-ever-lived-or-ever-will-live. If God wants someone saved, then He will get that someone saved, it will never be frustrated or fail.

John.10

[24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.
[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

It does not mean literally "all men" as in all-men-who-ever-lived-or-ever-will-live. If God wants someone saved, then He will get that someone saved, it will never be frustrated or fail.

See? Told you they had to redefine words to make their doctrine work. The Greek "all" is paß (pas) and it means "all." Period. That's all it means. So don't be deceived who would try to tell you "all" only means "some."

They have to redefine the Greek and twist and turn all sorts of words and phrases in order to make TULIP work. TULIP is ignorant the simple truth no less than Charles Spurgeon stated long ago in his sermon on God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

"If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

 

[tribesman]

See? Told you they had to redefine words to make their doctrine work. The Greek "all" is paß (pas) and it means "all." Period. That's all it means. So don't be deceived who would try to tell you "all" only means "some."

With that interpretation you will get a lot of contradictions and scriptures not harmonizing with each other. Is there anything hindering God from saving those He sent His Son to save?

 

[forsha]

And yet all men are not saved. Because the almighty free will of the sinner can hinder God to save sinners?

Did you forget about Dan 4:35?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Is there anything hindering God from saving those He sent His Son to save?

Yes, but you refuse to see it, given that you see God's grace and will as irresistible. There are obviously times throughout the Bible God's will is thwarted by man's obstinacy. You and others who believe as you do, however, refuse to acknowledge them, which is another flaw in your argument.

 

[Jason0047]

actually, there are several examples of people going to the bathroom in Scripture. Ehud killed a man who was on the toilet.

I am aware that the Bible explains that certain individuals went to the bathroom. What I was saying that we do not have a detailed account of every instance of a toilet moment for all Bible characters (Which was key to the point I was trying to make).

Free-will is not simply "choice" but is very specific, and denies God's sovereignty.

Okay. Let's forget the term "Free-will". I see you do not like that word. Picture that word in your mind. Now imagine a big hand crushing that word. Now, imagine that hand throwing that word into the trash can. In other words, I do not care if you disagree with the word. I want to know what you believe. Do you believe all men are all equally given the choice to do either good or evil? Do you believe this to be the same for the devil and his minions, too?

 

[forsha]

God chose ALL of us, not a select few of us :

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"all" means "all", not "selected few"

because man has free will, some men that choose to be slaves to sin, will not be of the selected few, because God will not "select" a sinner.

Then, how do you explain Eph 2:1-5?

 

[tribesman]

Did you forget about Dan 4:35?

Good scripture. Where did you go forsha? Seems like you pulled out of our good discussion in the "working out our salvation" thread.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105397-working-out-our-salvation-11.html#post1904983

 

[forsha]

i'm not sure, but i think promoting universal reconciliation is forbidden on this site.
it is certainly not found in yahweh's plan, word, or in yahshua.

also, more accurately see
"Kenneth S. Wuest

(from a devotions) Written by Kevin A. Krall on Thursday - November 13, 2014.


"1 TIMOTHY 2:1-4

New Testament An Expanded Translation - Kenneth S. Wuest
I exhort therefore, first of all,
that petitions be made continually for personal needs, prayers, intercessions,
giving of thanks on behalf of all men,
on behalf of kings and all those holding high positions,
in order that a quiet and peaceful life
we may be leading in every godliness and becoming deportment.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour God

who desires that all men be saved and
come to a precise and experiential knowledge of the truth"


[HR][/HR] "come to a precise and experiential knowledge of the truth"
Paul is not referring to some general type of knowledge, but the precise experiential kind only by knowing God on an intimate and personal level. It is not knowing everything "about" God that brings us into a relationship with God, but rather actually meeting, conversing and spending time in prayer with God.



--------------------------------------------------------

notice also that very few come to a precise and experiential knowledge of the truth in yahshua,
although this is directly what we who do are directed to pray for.

yahweh desires, so we in him also desire, and we pray as he directs, for all men
to turn to him to be saved.
the fact that multitudes never repent of worshiping and serving demons and the pope is also stated
directly and indirectly many times in yahweh's word,

so that multitudes are resurrected not to eternal life in peace and joy and righteousness,
but to shame and destruction.

we still continue to pray as yahweh permits, for whose who do not sin the sin that leads to death,

and those who yahweh chooses to show mercy to, receive mercy, and from him life in yahshua.

John 17:9, even though Jesus is praying for the apostles, why does he say that he prays not for the world?

 

[Jason0047]

It's not as simple as the duality of choose A or choose B.
Adam had that choice, but his representative choice set the pace of slavery.
Free-will does not exist, at least for any sinner... which none of us can deny that we are.
We are born in bondage to sin.
thus we need new birth.

God chooses us. On our own, we only choose self and sin, and never choose to serve God. That's why He sent His Son, and that's why the Son sent the Spirit.

Again, forget the word "Free will." I understand that you and others do not like that word because it makes it sound like God is in approval of them in being "free" so as to continue in bondage. However, I do not believe God ever approves of anyone in refusing to repent and or in refusing to accept Him. Do you?

Well, I believe we were all under bondage to sin and slavery to sin because of Adam's transgression, too. But I also believe the Lord supercedes that darkness or slavery of this bondage that we are in bondage to with Adam, though. God (Christ) makes the choice in accepting Him possible by the gospel. In other words, all men have the capacity to repent and accept Christ because of His death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[tribesman]

Yes, but you refuse to see it, given that you see God's grace and will as irresistible. There are obviously times throughout the Bible God's will is thwarted by man's obstinacy. You and others who believe as you do, however, refuse to acknowledge them, which is another flaw in your argument.

Regarding the salvation of the Elect it is irresistable. Thinking like you do would have the atoning blood of Christ Jesus as insufficient in and by itself to save a single doomed and lost sinner in this wicked old world. Instead you put the burden on salvation on the works of the sinner. I find it both unscriptural and tragic.

[h=3]Rom.3[/h][24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Jeff_56]

to whom am i responding, if yahweh permits -
someone with precise and experiential knowledge of the truth,
someone with at least some experiential knowledge with yahweh in yahshua,
someone who rejects yahweh and yahshua,
or
someone who is seeking the truth in order to receive life,
or
someone who doesn't care about the truth,
or
other (i.e. description in your own words, if possible to know) ?

John 17:9, even though Jesus is praying for the apostles, why does he say that he prays not for the world?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Then, how do you explain Eph 2:1-5?

Key verse is 5 :

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

Quickened "together with Christ", God loved "all of us even in sin" that is "all men", meaning like 1 Timothy 2:3-4 His will was for "all men", but the only ones "quickened" says Paul, are those who with their own free will chose to follow Christ and "together with Christ" they were quickened... Not because they were a special choice of God... Paul is speaking to the church at Ephesus, to those who "chose to follow Christ", the saints (Eph. 1:1)

 

[forsha]

How would you explain the truth of 1 Timothy 2:3, 4? If, as it says, God would have all men be saved, then what besides man's ability to reject God would explain the fact that not all men are saved?

What I find amazing is that those who argue against Scripture such as this one have to redefine words rather than find Scriptural reasoning for not believing what it plainly says.

The meaning of salvation is "deliverance", all salvation scriptures are not talking about eternal, some are talking about timely deliverance. There is a deliverance in coming unto a knowledge of the truth, a timely one.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Regarding the salvation of the Elect it is irresistable.

Glad you brought that up. "The elect" are not individually addressed in the Bible. "The elect" in the grounding text of Reformed Theology, Romans 9-11, speaks not of individuals as elect, and in fact speaks only of Israel as "elect." Therefore, you base your doctrine on an erroneous interpretation of Scripture, which makes the doctrine itself erroneous.

Thinking like you do would have the atoning blood of Christ Jesus as insufficient in and by itself to save a single doomed and lost sinner in this wicked old world. Instead you put the burden on salvation on the works of the sinner. I find it both unscriptural and tragic.

I find your summary of my view insulting and ignorant.

Acts 7, NASB (Stephen, as he is being stoned to death)
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

Matthew 23
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

Proverbs 1
22 "How long , O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge? ...

27 When your dread comes like a storm And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you."
​

Explain how God's will and grace is "irresistible" again? Coerced love is a contradiction in terms. There’s no such thing as forced love. The idea that God has some irresistible grace – something that when you say, “I don’t want to be saved!” and He says, “Well, you’re going to be saved! I am going to make you love me!” – no, that’s ridiculous. That’s not love at all! You become a robot! God gives us the privilege of saying “no” so that we can have the delight of saying “yes."

 

[forsha]

See? Told you they had to redefine words to make their doctrine work. The Greek "all" is paß (pas) and it means "all." Period. That's all it means. So don't be deceived who would try to tell you "all" only means "some."

They have to redefine the Greek and twist and turn all sorts of words and phrases in order to make TULIP work. TULIP is ignorant the simple truth no less than Charles Spurgeon stated long ago in his sermon on God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

One of the facts of the truth is that all scriptures that are inspired of God will not contradict each other. All does mean "all", such as, all that is in this room, all that are using this forum, all of the inhabitants of the earth, all of the elect family. Do you get the idea?