Working out our Salvation

[Elin]

...Among the fruits of the Spirit in Gal 5:22-23, is pistis, which means "faith," and
also means "fidelity," faithfulness, as in Tit 2:10.

I understand the pistis of Gal 5:22 to mean "faithfulness," fidelity, rather than belief (faith).

Therefore, I do not understand "faith" (belief) to be fruit of the Spirit, but a gift of the Spirit
(Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), through which we are justified; i.e., forgiven (Ro 3:25)....

Yes, God also gets all the glory when our faith is a gift of the Spirit through which we are justified...

And fruit of the Spirit is not the same as gift of the Spirit.
However, the NT is clear that faith is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)...

So I think the correct translation of pistis in the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) is "faithfulness,"
rather than "faith," and presents no disharmony with our faith as a gift of the Spirit through which we are justified.

Elin, I have to ask you about this.
I am not sure that we can make this strict division or distinction between gift and fruit here

Hi, tribesman,

Well, when you really look at it, they are not the same.

The fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) are our transformation into holiness through the obedience of faith.
No obedience = no holiness.

However, faith is a gift freely given to us (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
not produced in us by obedience.

Big difference between the two.

or make much out of that the word pistis rather should be translated faithfulness than faith.

Well I understand why you think that, but when you see that fruit of the Spirit is not the same as
gift of the Spirit,
fruit being worked within you through the obedience of faith by the power of the Holy Spirit, and
faith being given to you freely, involving no performance of your own,
it is evident they are not the same, and that a disharmony in the word of God is created,
which makes faith the result of obedience, when saving faith is the cause of obedience.

God's word does not contradict itself, only our understanding of it is contradictory.

Understanding pistis in Gal 5:22 to mean the fruit of "faith" is contradictory to faith as a free gift.
Understanding pistis in Gal 5:22 to mean "faithfulness" (fidelity, as it means in Tit 2:10) is not
contradictory to that.

Unless one has the perspective that faith somehow precedes generation (and then we would be into the debate about prevenient grace).

Well, that is a notion I am dealing with here:

Before we are born of the Spirit, our faith is no better than filthy rags,

As for spiritual gifts, not all believers possesses all of them,

Aren't the gifts of the Spirit to which you are referring in the NT the extraordinary functions in the body?
Yes, not all believers possess the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit.

But I am not referring to extraordinary functions by the Holy Spirit, but simply to what is
stated in Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3, that faith is not conditioned on our performance,
but is a free gift.

but as for the fruit of regeneration all believers possesses it. Looking at the context of Gal.5 the fruit (singular) of the Spirit is contrasted to the works of the flesh. One of those works of the flesh is heresies. Heresy should be regarded as a contrast to saving faith. The Q that follows then could be that
why would a regenerate believer only have faith as a gift but still lack faith/fulness as a fruit? Like salvation would not inevitably bear such fruit.

More like the "carnal man" of 1Co 3:1-8, who is jealous, quarrelsome and worldly, and yet
whom Paul calls "brothers," as well as "God's field, God's building," "God's temple in whom
the Holy Spirit dwells," and his "dear children" (vv.1, 9, 16, 4:6, 14); i.e. regenerate.

They are not bearing much fruit now, rather they are carnal, but they are regenerate and
Paul exhorts them to stop being carnal and to imitate him in his imitating Christ (1Co 4:15-17).

The way I would put this is that faith follows as a fruit of regeneration

But the problem with that is that fruits in Gal 5:22-23 are not free gifts,
but are the result of obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit,
while faith is a free gift involving no performance of our own.

That is a huge difference between the two, and goes to the heart of the gospel.

while at the same time being the means (through the gift given by God)
in which he receives salvation. Thus if there ever is any division or distinction between
gift and fruit here, the regenerate possesses both of them.

Yes, it is through the gift of faith by grace that we are justified (forgiven, saved--Lk 1:77),
no performance of our own.

But the fruit is produced in our obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit.
No obedience = no fruit (holiness).

And that is a big difference.

Believers have fruit in varying degrees, from little to none--as in the carnal man
of 1Co 3:1-8--to those who walk in faithfulness in Gal 5:22-23.

Paul exhorts all believers to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh (Gal 5:25).

If believers could not walk in the flesh (be carnal), Paul would not exhort them to do otherwise.

So, the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) in varying degrees in believers through their obedience,

the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (1Co 13-14) to some believers only, and

the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), repentance (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31)
and righteousness/justification(Ro 4:17) to all believers

do not all have the same basis and do not all operate in the same manner, and therefore,
are not interchangeable in meaning.

The fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22-23) are not interchangeable with
the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (1Co 13-14) are not interchangeable with
the gifts of faith, repentance and righteousness in their NT meaning.

And faith as a "fruit" of the Spirit is maintained to support the notion
that it is not our faith in Christ which justifies us (Ro 3:25), because faith is the "fruit" of justification,
but it is the faith of Christ which justifies us.

 

[tribesman]

Hi, tribesman,

Well, when you really look at it, they are not the same.

The fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) are our transformation into holiness through the obedience of faith.
No obedience = no holiness.

It says fruit in singular, and it says so for a reason. Maybe it is not so much a description of the characteristics of a would be "ideal man" as it is about what God's Spirit is all about when He is really working in us. Contrasted to the flesh, whose driving source is from elsewhere. I say this, because many a false teacher and religion will appeal to people implying that they possess "the fruits of the Spirit" being so nice and lovely people. Even when it is exposed that their doctrines and practices are false, they like to appeal to the crowd how good and lovely they are by talking much about the fruits of their works. So, the fruit spoken of in Gal.5 actually encompass several aspects such as speaking the truth in love, and this love rejoicing in truth etc. This can be important to point out.

However, faith is a gift freely given to us (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), not produced in us by obedience. Big difference between the two.

There is only a difference if anyone says that faith is produced in us by way of our obedience. I for one certainly do not say that. Faith is both a gift of God (in which we receive salvation) and a fruit of the salvation given to us. If faith at any "part" is dependent/conditional on our obedience then it is not really monergism we are talking about.

Well I understand why you think that, but when you see that fruit of the Spirit is not the same as
gift of the Spirit, fruit being worked within you through the obedience of faith by the power of the Holy Spirit, and
faith being given to you freely, involving no performance of your own, it is evident they are not the same, and that a disharmony in the word of God is created, which makes faith the result of obedience, when saving faith is the cause of obedience.

It naturally gives that fruit has a growing process, with its organism being at the root dividing nutrition to the branches. Those things are obvious and no man need to wonder about same. What I am saying is that this kind of fruit spoken of here is not conditional or dependent on our obedience, it is by necessity a MUST that a good tree will bear good fruit. It's not something that can be halted than just for a period of time, yet in the end the fruit will be there. And a corrupt tree CANNOT bring any good fruit. There are no exceptions to this rule (Matt.7:17-18).

Aren't the gifts of the Spirit to which you are referring in the NT the extraordinary functions in the body? Yes, not all believers possess the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit.

But I am not referring to extraordinary functions by the Holy Spirit, but simply to what is stated in Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3, that faith is not conditioned on our performance, but is a free gift.

But faith is listed among those "extraordinary" gifts, as you call them (1Cor.12:9). So the problem remains. Is that faith, or faithfulness if you will, spoken of there something that only some believers have that differ from that faith which all believers have? I do not see that strict division or distinction in that case. For if it were so we have a disharmony of what faith actually is and are getting at seeing a team A and team B among the Saints.

More like the "carnal man" of 1Co 3:1-8, who is jealous, quarrelsome and worldly, and yet
whom Paul calls "brothers," as well as "God's field, God's building," "God's temple in whom the Holy Spirit dwells," and his "dear children" (vv.1, 9, 16, 4:6, 14); i.e. regenerate. They are not bearing much fruit now, rather they are carnal, but they are regenerate and Paul exhorts them to stop being carnal and to imitate him in his imitating Christ (1Co 4:15-17).

Good that you had that word "now" in that passage, I underlined and upsized it. Yes, they were regenerate and not bearing much fruit at that time, or hindering (or being hindered in) the growth process, however they will inevitably bear that fruit eventually. Now I want to ask you something: Do you believe that the addresses of all Paul's epistles basically are targeting a mixed crowd of wheat; faithful believers, believers who are being side-tracked and needs to get back on track again and also plants, or tares? Or do you believe that all the addresses are only to "stay on course" believers? I am of the former position.

But the problem with that is that fruits in Gal 5:22-23 are not free gifts, but are the result of obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit, while faith is a free gift involving no performance of our own.

That is a huge difference between the two, and goes to the heart of the gospel.

Yes, if you see it that way then it follows that you would have a difference. I am still not certain of how or why you make it a huge difference.

Yes, it is through the gift of faith by grace that we are justified (forgiven, saved--Lk 1:77),
no performance of our own.

But the fruit is produced in our obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit. No obedience = no fruit (holiness).

And that is a big difference.

Not sure still what you are saying here. If you are saying that salvation is "by faith" and sanctification is "by works", then, no, I don't agree with that. Or if you are saying that while our justification is solely monergistic whereas our sanctification is, at some part, synergistic, where we can succeed or fail dependent our efforts, then I don't agree with that either, seeing the elect are already sanctified and perfected through the Lord Jesus. God beholding no iniquity in Jacob (). If you are saying that our "experiental sanctificatio"n is a process then I can agree with that, but only up to that point that it should never jeopardize accepting a dichotomy between justification and sanctification which is not scriptural (i.e. going into the so called "methodist calvinst" or "calminian" error).

Believers have fruit in varying degrees, from little to none--as in the carnal man of 1Co 3:1-8--to those who walk in faithfulness in Gal 5:22-23.

Paul exhorts all believers to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh (Gal 5:25).

If believers could not walk in the flesh (be carnal), Paul would not exhort them to do otherwise.

So, the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) in varying degrees in believers through their obedience,

the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (1Co 13-14) to some believers only, and

the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), repentance (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31) and righteousness/justification(Ro 4:17) to all believers do not all have the same basis and do not all operate in the same manner, and therefore, are not interchangeable in meaning.

The fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22-23) are not interchangeable with the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (1Co 13-14) are not interchangeable with the gifts of faith, repentance and righteousness in their NT meaning.

Do you think or say that if someone has no fruit and dies in that state that he is saved? Like salvation had no lasting or enduring fruit. Again, these carnal christians showed this behavior for a time, then at some point the growth process carried on. However, they were as much the children of God always. But the plants never bore any fruit and indeed could not. They were never the children of God.

And faith as a "fruit" of the Spirit is maintained to support the notion that it is not our faith in Christ which justifies us (Ro 3:25), because faith is the "fruit" of justification, but it is the faith of Christ which justifies us.

I think only forsha would say that here. I am not saying that. I am saying that believing in Christ (meaning our faith IN Him) is a fruit of regeneration (and therefore of course of the Spirit). We do not possess what some people call "saving faith" before being regenerated. It is impossible for our old man, being dead in trespasses and sins, to have that faith, as it is at enmity with God, bringing forth fruit unto death. And in opposition against antinomian hyper-calvinists I hold that our justification is bestowed on us at the time we possess this faith.

 

[tribesman]

Adding scripture references and correcting types of this passage:

...Not sure still what you are saying here. If you are saying that salvation is "by faith" and sanctification is "by works", then, no, I don't agree with that. Or if you are saying that while our justification is solely monergistic whereas our sanctification is, at some part, synergistic, where we can succeed or fail dependent our efforts, then I don't agree with that either, seeing the elect are already sanctified and perfected through the Lord Jesus. God beholding no iniquity in Jacob (Num.23:21, Heb.10:14, 2 Peter 1:5-1). If you are saying that our "experiential sanctification" is a process then I can agree with that, but only up to that point that it should never jeopardize accepting a dichotomy between justification and sanctification which is not scriptural (i.e. going into the so called "methodist calvinist" or "calminian" error).

 

[MarcR]

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

which salvation is the verse talking about??
why does Paul specifically say with Fear and trembling??
How do we implement that scripture in our daily lives??
And to whom does that scripture apply?

which salvation is the verse talking about?? The Salvation that commences when one acknowledges Jesus as Lord.

why does Paul specifically say with Fear and trembling?? Because while there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Ro 8:1), we are accountable to Jesus for what we do with the gift of Salvation we have received, and the many gifts and blessings that accompany it.

How do we implement that scripture in our daily lives?? God has worked Salvation in. (Eph 2:8-9) Accepting Jesus as Lord includes recognizing an obligation to serve Him. After we are saved God has work for us to do. Mat 28:19-20 is a starting place. we come to an understanding of what God would have us do in three ways:

1) Reading Scripture
2) Exhortation and encouragement from Godly friends
3) Direct revelation from the Holy Spirit

Once we understand what God would have us do: working out our salvation lies in a lifestyle of obedience.

And to whom does that scripture apply? All who are truly saved.

I capitalized Salvation because it is a translation of Jesus' name. Jesus = Yeshua = Salvation.

 

[MarcR]

God's word instructs man on how to be saved and man therefore must work out/obey what God's word says to be saved.

Those that allow God's word to abide in them are the one's God works in:

Jn 8:37 those Jews were lost for they would not allow God's word abide within them therefore God did not work in them..."because my word hath no place in you."

Jn 15:7 those who are disciples that God does work in are the one's who allow God's word to abide in them..."If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."


God does not work in men separate and apart from His word, nor does God just randomly choose certain men to work in apart from the word while leaving others alone to be lost. That idea puts moral culpability upon God.

and man therefore must work out/obey what God's word says to be saved.

Ro 8:4-9
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
KJV

Without the indwelling Holy Spirit (who comes with Salvation) it is impossible to obey.

 

[forsha]

But do we have faith before we are born of the Spirit?


This seems to be where our understanding differs.

Among the fruits of the Spirit in Gal 5:22-23, is pistis, which means "faith," and also
means "fidelity," faithfulness, as in Tit 2:10.

I understand the pistis of Gal 5:22 to mean "faithfulness," fidelity, rather than belief (faith).

Therefore, I do not understand "faith" (belief) to be fruit of the Spirit, but a gift of the Spirit
(Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), through which we are justified; i.e., forgiven (Ro 3:25).


And then this is confusing me.

We have no faith until we have the Spirit, so how do we have faith (as filthy rags) before we are born of the Spirit?


Well, yes and no.

Yes, God also gets all the glory when our faith is a gift of the Spirit through which we are justified.

But it also boils down to harmony in the word of God.

And fruit of the Spirit is not the same as gift of the Spirit.
However, the NT is clear that faith is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

So I think the correct translation of pistis in the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) is "faithfulness,"
rather than "faith," and presents no disharmony with our faith as a gift of the Spirit through which we are justified.

It's good to get it all sorted out.

If faith means faithfulness, then whose faithfulness is it referring to in Eph 2:8, Jesus's or man's? I would also like for you to explain how the carnal man, void of the Spirit, can have faith in anything that is of a spiritual nature. Rom 5:9, says that we have been justified by his blood, was that not his blood that he shed on the cross, if so, would we not have been justified by his actions on the cross? Titus 2:10 is talking about the faithfulness of God, not man.

 

[forsha]

Alright, are we going to go back to discuss then the topic at hand?

Let's not get the thread sidetracked about debating what is due use for caps. Let's go back to the very serious matters communicated here.

I am in perfect agreement with you on this matter.

 

[forsha]

But do we have faith before we are born of the Spirit?


This seems to be where our understanding differs.

Among the fruits of the Spirit in Gal 5:22-23, is pistis, which means "faith," and also
means "fidelity," faithfulness, as in Tit 2:10.

I understand the pistis of Gal 5:22 to mean "faithfulness," fidelity, rather than belief (faith).

Therefore, I do not understand "faith" (belief) to be fruit of the Spirit, but a gift of the Spirit
(Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), through which we are justified; i.e., forgiven (Ro 3:25).


And then this is confusing me.

We have no faith until we have the Spirit, so how do we have faith (as filthy rags) before we are born of the Spirit?


Well, yes and no.

Yes, God also gets all the glory when our faith is a gift of the Spirit through which we are justified.

But it also boils down to harmony in the word of God.

And fruit of the Spirit is not the same as gift of the Spirit.
However, the NT is clear that faith is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

So I think the correct translation of pistis in the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) is "faithfulness,"
rather than "faith," and presents no disharmony with our faith as a gift of the Spirit through which we are justified.

It's good to get it all sorted out.

No, we do not have faith in spiritual things until we are born of the Spirit. The faith that we have before we are reborn, is as filthy rags, meaning in actuality, none.

 

[forsha]

It says fruit in singular, and it says so for a reason. Maybe it is not so much a description of the characteristics of a would be "ideal man" as it is about what God's Spirit is all about when He is really working in us. Contrasted to the flesh, whose driving source is from elsewhere. I say this, because many a false teacher and religion will appeal to people implying that they possess "the fruits of the Spirit" being so nice and lovely people. Even when it is exposed that their doctrines and practices are false, they like to appeal to the crowd how good and lovely they are by talking much about the fruits of their works. So, the fruit spoken of in Gal.5 actually encompass several aspects such as speaking the truth in love, and this love rejoicing in truth etc. This can be important to point out.

There is only a difference if anyone says that faith is produced in us by way of our obedience. I for one certainly do not say that. Faith is both a gift of God (in which we receive salvation) and a fruit of the salvation given to us. If faith at any "part" is dependent/conditional on our obedience then it is not really monergism we are talking about.

It naturally gives that fruit has a growing process, with its organism being at the root dividing nutrition to the branches. Those things are obvious and no man need to wonder about same. What I am saying is that this kind of fruit spoken of here is not conditional or dependent on our obedience, it is by necessity a MUST that a good tree will bear good fruit. It's not something that can be halted than just for a period of time, yet in the end the fruit will be there. And a corrupt tree CANNOT bring any good fruit. There are no exceptions to this rule (Matt.7:17-18).

But faith is listed among those "extraordinary" gifts, as you call them (1Cor.12:9). So the problem remains. Is that faith, or faithfulness if you will, spoken of there something that only some believers have that differ from that faith which all believers have? I do not see that strict division or distinction in that case. For if it were so we have a disharmony of what faith actually is and are getting at seeing a team A and team B among the Saints.


Good that you had that word "now" in that passage, I underlined and upsized it. Yes, they were regenerate and not bearing much fruit at that time, or hindering (or being hindered in) the growth process, however they will inevitably bear that fruit eventually. Now I want to ask you something: Do you believe that the addresses of all Paul's epistles basically are targeting a mixed crowd of wheat; faithful believers, believers who are being side-tracked and needs to get back on track again and also plants, or tares? Or do you believe that all the addresses are only to "stay on course" believers? I am of the former position.

Yes, if you see it that way then it follows that you would have a difference. I am still not certain of how or why you make it a huge difference.


Not sure still what you are saying here. If you are saying that salvation is "by faith" and sanctification is "by works", then, no, I don't agree with that. Or if you are saying that while our justification is solely monergistic whereas our sanctification is, at some part, synergistic, where we can succeed or fail dependent our efforts, then I don't agree with that either, seeing the elect are already sanctified and perfected through the Lord Jesus. God beholding no iniquity in Jacob (). If you are saying that our "experiental sanctificatio"n is a process then I can agree with that, but only up to that point that it should never jeopardize accepting a dichotomy between justification and sanctification which is not scriptural (i.e. going into the so called "methodist calvinst" or "calminian" error).

Do you think or say that if someone has no fruit and dies in that state that he is saved? Like salvation had no lasting or enduring fruit. Again, these carnal christians showed this behavior for a time, then at some point the growth process carried on. However, they were as much the children of God always. But the plants never bore any fruit and indeed could not. They were never the children of God.

I think only forsha would say that here. I am not saying that. I am saying that believing in Christ (meaning our faith IN Him) is a fruit of regeneration (and therefore of course of the Spirit). We do not possess what some people call "saving faith" before being regenerated. It is impossible for our old man, being dead in trespasses and sins, to have that faith, as it is at enmity with God, bringing forth fruit unto death. And in opposition against antinomian hyper-calvinists I hold that our justification is bestowed on us at the time we possess this faith.

Tribesman, I know that it will come as no surprise to you, but I still hold to the fact that Jesus sanctified us his elect while on the cross. Romans 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood...... I do, however, acknowledge that a born again person becomes aware of it when he is converted.

 

[Elin]

However, faith is a gift freely given to us (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
not produced in us by obedience.

Big difference between the two.

There is only a difference if anyone says that faith is produced in us by way of our obedience.
I for one certainly do not say that.
Faith is both a gift of God (in which we receive salvation) and a fruit of the salvation given to us.
If faith at any "part" is dependent/conditional on our obedience then it is not really monergism we are talking about.

Well, it seems you and I are in 101% agreement in your comments.

However, that is the issue I am dealing with here. . .not that faith is the result of obedience,
but the assertion that faith is a gift because it is the fruit of salvation, and not the means of salvation,
that we are saved by "the faith of Christ" (Gal 2:16), and not by our "faith in Christ" (Ro 3:25).

And the problem I am having with "faith," rather than "faithfulness," as a fruit,
is that we can choose not to operate in the fruits but to operate in the flesh,
but can those who have been given the gift of faith choose not to believe?

Does the fruit of "faith" operate like the other fruits,
or is the fruit of "faithfulness" meant in Gal 5:22-23?

Now I want to ask you something:
Do you believe that the addresses of all Paul's epistles basically are targeting a mixed crowd of wheat; faithful believers, believers who are being side-tracked and needs to get back on track again and also
plants, or tares? Or do you believe that all the addresses are only to "stay on course" believers? I am of the former position.

Well. . .do tares every become wheat, or do goats ever become sheep?
Not in the natural order (which is patterned on the spiritual order), and not in the spiritual order.

So what good would it do to target tares and goats?

I think Paul's letters are addressed to the elect.

 

[Elin]

If faith means faithfulness, then
whose faithfulness is it referring to in Eph 2:8, Jesus's or man's?

The Greek word, pistis, used in Eph 2:8 and Gal 5:22 means both "faith" and "faithfulness" (Tit 2:10).
In the context of Eph 2:8, it's meaning is "faith."

I would also like for you to explain how the carnal man, void of the Spirit, can have faith in anything that is of a spiritual nature.

But the carnal man is not void of the Spirit, for Paul addresses the carnal Christians in 1Co 3:1-8
as "brothers," "God's field, God's building," "God's temple in whom the Holy Spirit dwells," and
"my dear children" (1Co 3:1, 9, 16, 4:6, 14); i.e., the regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 5:9, says that we have been justified by his blood, was that not his blood that he shed on the cross, if so,
would we not have been justified by his actions on the cross?

Absolutely. . .there is no justification without the blood of Christ.

But the whole counsel of God reveals that our propitiation (atonement) is by our faith in his blood
(Ro 3:25).

So God's justice on our guilt is satisfied by Christ's actions on the cross,
and our sin is then forgiven (salvation--Lk 1:77) by that atonement which is
applied to us through the gift of faith in Christ (Ro 3:25).

God gets all the glory.

Titus 2:10 is talking about the faithfulness of God, not man.

Yes, and the word "faithfulness" there is pistis, the same word used in Gal 5:22.

 

[Elin]

No, we do not have faith in spiritual things until we are born of the Spirit.
The faith that we have before we are reborn, is as filthy rags, meaning in actuality, none.

Thanks so much for clearing that up.

 

[forsha]

The Greek word, pistis, used in Eph 2:8 and Gal 5:22 means both "faith" and "faithfulness" (Tit 2:10).
In the context of Eph 2:8, it's meaning is "faith."


But the carnal man is not void of the Spirit, for Paul addresses the carnal Christians in 1Co 3:1-8
as "brothers," "God's field, God's building," "God's temple in whom the Holy Spirit dwells," and
"my dear children" (1Co 3:1, 9, 16, 4:6, 14); i.e., the regenerated by the Holy Spirit.


Absolutely. . .there is no justification without the blood of Christ.

But the whole counsel of God reveals that our propitiation (atonement) is by our faith in his blood
(Ro 3:25).

So God's justice on our guilt is satisfied by Christ's actions on the cross,
and our sin is then forgiven (salvation--Lk 1:77) by that atonement which is
applied to us through the gift of faith in Christ (Ro 3:25).

God gets all the glory.


Yes, and the word "faithfulness" there is pistis, the same word used in Gal 5:22.

Do you agree that before we are born of the Spirit, we have but one nature, and that is the nature of the flesh, but when we are born of the Spirit we then have two natures, that of the flesh and that of the Spirit. ? Paul talks about this in Rom 7:18-23. I believe that the scriptures teach that when we allow the flesh to persuade us to sin, we do not lose our eternal salvation, but we do lose our relationship with God until we repent. When we are born of the Spirit we can see ourselves as not void of the Spirit. The natural man before he is born of the Spirit does not have the Holy Spirit within him.

 

[Elin]

The Greek word, pistis, used in Eph 2:8 and Gal 5:22 means both "faith" and "faithfulness" (Tit 2:10).
In the context of Eph 2:8, it's meaning is "faith."

But the carnal man is not void of the Spirit, for Paul addresses the carnal Christians in
1Co 3:1-8 as "brothers," "God's field, God's building," "God's temple in whom the Holy
Spirit dwells," and "my dear children" (1Co 3:1, 9, 16, 4:6, 14); i.e., the regenerated
by the Holy Spirit.

Only the unregenerate man is void of the Spirit.

Absolutely. . .there is no justification without the blood of Christ.

But the whole counsel of God reveals that our propitiation (atonement) is by
our faith in his blood (Ro 3:25).

So God's justice on our guilt is satisfied by Christ's actions on the cross,
and our sin is then forgiven (justification) which forgiveness is salvation
(Lk 1:77) by that atonement which is applied to us through the gift
of our faith in Christ (Ro 3:25).

God gets all the glory.

Yes, and the word "faithfulness" in Tit 2:10 is pistis, the same word used in Gal 5:22.

Do you agree that before we are born of the Spirit, we have but one nature, and that is the nature of the flesh, but
when we are born of the Spirit we then have two natures, that of the flesh and that of the Spirit. ? Paul talks about this in Rom 7:18-23. I believe that the scriptures teach that when we allow the flesh to persuade us to sin, we do not lose our eternal salvation, but we do lose our relationship with God until we repent. When we are born of the Spirit we can see ourselves as not void of the Spirit. The natural man before he is born of the Spirit does not have the Holy Spirit within him.

Yes, but that is only part of it.

Rebirth brings with it the gift of our faith, through which faith the atonement of Jesus
is applied to us (Ro 3:25), and by which application we are justified (declared "not guilty,' forgiven),
which forgiveness is salvation (Lk 1:77).

My issue is the bolded in my post above: justification/salvation through the gift of our faith (Ro 3:25) given at rebirth.

 

[forsha]

Hi, tribesman,

Well, when you really look at it, they are not the same.

The fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) are our transformation into holiness through the obedience of faith.
No obedience = no holiness.

However, faith is a gift freely given to us (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
not produced in us by obedience.

Big difference between the two.


Well I understand why you think that, but when you see that fruit of the Spirit is not the same as
gift of the Spirit,
fruit being worked within you through the obedience of faith by the power of the Holy Spirit, and
faith being given to you freely, involving no performance of your own,
it is evident they are not the same, and that a disharmony in the word of God is created,
which makes faith the result of obedience, when saving faith is the cause of obedience.

God's word does not contradict itself, only our understanding of it is contradictory.

Understanding pistis in Gal 5:22 to mean the fruit of "faith" is contradictory to faith as a free gift.
Understanding pistis in Gal 5:22 to mean "faithfulness" (fidelity, as it means in Tit 2:10) is not
contradictory to that.


Well, that is a notion I am dealing with here:




Aren't the gifts of the Spirit to which you are referring in the NT the extraordinary functions in the body?
Yes, not all believers possess the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit.

But I am not referring to extraordinary functions by the Holy Spirit, but simply to what is
stated in Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3, that faith is not conditioned on our performance,
but is a free gift.


More like the "carnal man" of 1Co 3:1-8, who is jealous, quarrelsome and worldly, and yet
whom Paul calls "brothers," as well as "God's field, God's building," "God's temple in whom
the Holy Spirit dwells," and his "dear children" (vv.1, 9, 16, 4:6, 14); i.e. regenerate.

They are not bearing much fruit now, rather they are carnal, but they are regenerate and
Paul exhorts them to stop being carnal and to imitate him in his imitating Christ (1Co 4:15-17).


But the problem with that is that fruits in Gal 5:22-23 are not free gifts,
but are the result of obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit,
while faith is a free gift involving no performance of our own.

That is a huge difference between the two, and goes to the heart of the gospel.


Yes, it is through the gift of faith by grace that we are justified (forgiven, saved--Lk 1:77),
no performance of our own.

But the fruit is produced in our obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit.
No obedience = no fruit (holiness).

And that is a big difference.

Believers have fruit in varying degrees, from little to none--as in the carnal man
of 1Co 3:1-8--to those who walk in faithfulness in Gal 5:22-23.

Paul exhorts all believers to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh (Gal 5:25).

If believers could not walk in the flesh (be carnal), Paul would not exhort them to do otherwise.

So, the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) in varying degrees in believers through their obedience,

the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (1Co 13-14) to some believers only, and

the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), repentance (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31)
and righteousness/justification(Ro 4:17) to all believers

do not all have the same basis and do not all operate in the same manner, and therefore,
are not interchangeable in meaning.

The fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22-23) are not interchangeable with
the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (1Co 13-14) are not interchangeable with
the gifts of faith, repentance and righteousness in their NT meaning.

And faith as a "fruit" of the Spirit is maintained to support the notion
that it is not our faith in Christ which justifies us (Ro 3:25), because faith is the "fruit" of justification,
but it is the faith of Christ which justifies us.

The carnal man that Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 3 has two natures inside him that are warring against each other, the flesh and the Spirit. The carnal man that 1 Cor 2:14 is referring to only has one nature, and that is the flesh because he has not been born of the Spirit.

 

[Jeff_56]

English Standard Version
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

King James Bible
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, dear friends, since we have such promises, let us cleanse ourselves from every impurity of the flesh and spirit, completing our sanctification in the fear of God.

International Standard Version
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let's cleanse ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit by becoming mature in our holy fear of God.

NET Bible
Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that could defile the body and the spirit, and thus accomplish holiness out of reverence for God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore, because we have these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from all impurity of the flesh and spirit and let us cultivate holiness in the awe of God.

be
made
holy
in flesh and spirit.
(because we have these promises(which see)).

 

[MarcR]

My compliments to Forsha, Elin, and Tribesman for exemplifying civil and productive debate. I have seen this from many others on the forum as well; but I have seen some truly ugly and unnecessarily harsh posts that I would like to see toned down!

 

[Elin]

My compliments to Forsha, Elin, and Tribesman for exemplifying civil and productive debate. I have seen this from many others on the forum as well; but I have seen some truly ugly and unnecessarily harsh posts that I would like to see toned down!

Thanks! . . .

 

[Elin]

But the whole counsel of God reveals that our propitiation (atonement) is through
our faith in his blood (Ro 3:25).

So God's justice on our guilt is satisfied by Christ's actions on the cross,
by which our sin is then forgiven (justification, and that forgiveness is salvation--Lk 1:77)
through our gift of faith in Christ (Ro 3:25),
by which that atonement is applied to us, as the blood was applied by hyssop to cleanse the defiled altar on which sin was laid in the animal.

The NT hyssop by which the blood is applied is our faith, which is a gift.

God gets all the glory.

Do you agree that before we are born of the Spirit, we have but one nature, and that is the nature of the flesh, but
when we are born of the Spirit we then have two natures, that of the flesh and that of the Spirit. ? Paul talks about this in Rom 7:18-23. I believe that the scriptures teach that when we allow the flesh to persuade us to sin, we do not lose our eternal salvation, but we do lose our relationship with God until we repent. When we are born of the Spirit we can see ourselves as not void of the Spirit. The natural man before he is born of the Spirit does not have the Holy Spirit within him.

Yes, but that is only part of it.

Rebirth brings with it the gift of our faith, through which the atonement of Jesus
is applied to us (Ro 3:25), and by which application we are justified (declared "not guilty;" forgiven),
which forgiveness is salvation (Lk 1:77).

My issue is the bolded in my post above:
justification/salvation through the gift of our faith (Ro 3:25) given at rebirth.

The carnal man that Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 3 has two natures inside him that are warring against each other, the flesh and the Spirit.
The carnal man that 1 Cor 2:14 is referring to only has one nature, and that is the flesh because he has not been born of the Spirit.

Agreed. . ."carnal" is used both of the regenerate man's weaker fallen nature,
as well as of the unregenerate man.

However, my issue is the bolded in my first post above:

justification/salvation through the gift of our faith (Ro 3:25) given at rebirth.

 

[forsha]

My compliments to Forsha, Elin, and Tribesman for exemplifying civil and productive debate. I have seen this from many others on the forum as well; but I have seen some truly ugly and unnecessarily harsh posts that I would like to see toned down!

I do appreciate your thinking that. I, honestly believe that the only way that any of us can come to the understanding of the truth is for the Holy Spirit within us revealing it to us not by our trying to hammer it into them. It took me twelve years to come to that conclusion and "deny myself".