Catholic Heresy (for the record)

KenAllan · Feb 24, 2015

What is interesting is that Jesus only quoted from the Bible. Jesus never quoted anything from the Catholic Church when He was waking on this World. Never, not even once, did Jesus ever quote from the Catholic Church!

Therefore since Jesus only quoted from the Bible we do not need to listen to anything the corrupted Catholic Church has to say.

Again Mileuk you are wrong.

John 21:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus DID, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

John 21:25 does not say everything He taught, it clearly says everything He did. The word did means "to perform". An example would be "did you close the door?". Why do you Catholics lie and add to the Bible to make yourselves look better? Doing and teaching are two totally different things. Mileuk, you really need to invite the Holy Spirit into to your heart so you too can know the Truth in the Bible.

Pillar , "an upright structure of stone, brick, metal, etc, that supports a superstructure"

The Church supports the Scriptures it does not add to the Scriptures. Mileuk you really need to go back to school and demand your money back because they did not teach you anything.

Why Mileuk do you insist that your false Traditions have more Truth in them then what the Holy Spirit says? Clearly the Holy Spirit says Mary was a sinner but yet your false Traditions say Mary was sinless. The very fact that your false Traditions contradict what the Holy Spirit says proves that the Catholic Church is a false Church and not the True Church.

Mileuk, you really need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. When you receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will know the Truth because the Holy Spirit will teach you the Truth.

1 John 2:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP] These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

We do not need any teachings from you Catholics or the Catholic Church because the Teachings from the Holy Spirit is all we need. The Holy Spirit is the Truth and He never teaches lies like the Catholic Church does.

kennethcadwell · Feb 24, 2015

KenAllan said:

What is interesting is that Jesus only quoted from the Bible. Jesus never quoted anything from the Catholic Church when He was waking on this World. Never, not even once, did Jesus ever quote from the Catholic Church!

Therefore since Jesus only quoted from the Bible we do not need to listen to anything the corrupted Catholic Church has to say.

Again Mileuk you are wrong.

John 21:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus DID, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

John 21:25 does not say everything He taught, it clearly says everything He did. The word did means "to perform". An example would be "did you close the door?". Why do you Catholics lie and add to the Bible to make yourselves look better? Doing and teaching are two totally different things. Mileuk, you really need to invite the Holy Spirit into to your heart so you too can know the Truth in the Bible.

Pillar , "an upright structure of stone, brick, metal, etc, that supports a superstructure"

The Church supports the Scriptures it does not add to the Scriptures. Mileuk you really need to go back to school and demand your money back because they did not teach you anything.

Why Mileuk do you insist that your false Traditions have more Truth in them then what the Holy Spirit says? Clearly the Holy Spirit says Mary was a sinner but yet your false Traditions say Mary was sinless. The very fact that your false Traditions contradict what the Holy Spirit says proves that the Catholic Church is a false Church and not the True Church.

Mileuk, you really need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. When you receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will know the Truth because the Holy Spirit will teach you the Truth.

1 John 2:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP] These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

We do not need any teachings from you Catholics or the Catholic Church because the Teachings from the Holy Spirit is all we need. The Holy Spirit is the Truth and He never teaches lies like the Catholic Church does.

Well to start with Jesus could not quote from either the bible or the Catholic church as neither of them existed back then. They both came together and formed many years after the Lord's crucifixion.

Second He did quote from the Torah, as well also Peter, Paul, John, and Jude did as well.
For the scriptures are always to be held as His ultimate word and not changed, taken away from, or added to.

Jeff_56 · Feb 24, 2015

I've never heard it said that the Torah is not the Bible , the 'book' of the people of the book - the Scripture that Yahweh entrusted to the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites (as may befit any particular context for someone).

That may be a newer thing,
but Yahweh's people as far as I've seen have always called Torah Scripture (I always thought identical to 'the book' and "the Bible"), and some / many who recognize Yahshua as the Messiah, son of Yahweh, who came in the flesh,
include the New Testament when they(we) say Torah. Others may not include the NT when they say Torah, and that's not an issue even, nor a problem.

Yahweh from the beginning, Yahshua, Yahweh's Word, all that Yahshua ever and always said and says,
Torah, Scripture, the Bible, the Living Word of Yahweh(God), the Hebrews, the Jews, the Israelites,
the ekklesia, the born again believers, the children of yahweh,
all who love truth,
have never, never, never accepted the roman catholic hierarchy abomination heresy or any pope
as a part of any part of the body of Christ.
that thing is identified and recognized by all who live in the truth as anti-christ, against Yahweh, defying Him, lying to the whole world and deceiving everyone, seeking world dominion by hasatan's hand and by demonic power, and the only purpose (of the rcc) is to kill and to steal and to destroy.

only by the miracle of yahweh's grace and mercy, which he shows to whom he chooses,
is anyone anywhere saved; and this includes anyone anywhere who is saved out of and from the rcc.

like the several examples in Torah like Esther, Daniel, Joseph in egypt, and others in a foreign land under a foreign government, there may be those who belong to Yahweh, yet are still by some purpose 'inside' the heresy(the foreign government which is always innately opposed to Yahweh) and there by Yahweh's Plan or Purpose or just plain mercy. this is remarkable and rare if ever actually happening, but Yahweh's
ways are far above our ways --- never forgetting though
that He has always called His people to repent and to come out of the heresy; to not trust in it at all.

Word_Swordsman · Feb 24, 2015

mikeuk said:

Non-catholics seem to be "punching each other's lights out" to you when the Bible calls for Jude 1:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those "protestants", which mostly are not of that movement against the RCC in the Reformation, are part of an ongoing resistance to perversion of many thing holy once held by the apostles. They didn't anticipate such things as the perversions of RCC priests required to remain celibate (not commanded of Christian ministers), falling into unrepentant lusts of the flesh perpetrated on little boys.

Yes, apparently the Pope is yet a sinner, winking at sinners? St. Paul was a sinner, became a saint of God redeemed by the blood of Jesus, not a little glass of wine and a stale wafer.

1 Timothy 1:12-16 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul claimed to hold championship title as the chief of sinners, notches in his belt cut from the lives of fleeing Christians before being saved. Like many of us we have a title from the past to regret. Paul knew who he was then, and who he was made to be in Christ. Two very different men in the same body, one at a time. We ought to do likewise, ridding ourselves of old identities we escaped from by grace and faith in Christ. We need no longer identify with obsolete titles men can't forget.

Jeff_56 · Feb 24, 2015

not at all.

the "common salvation" does not include heresy, heretics, or the anti-christ group known as the rcc.

fordman · Feb 24, 2015

notuptome said:

Are you talking about the same bible that you acknowledged the Catholic Church compiled? If so, to believe in the bible you have to believe in the Catholic Church that compiled the bible.

Again .... one mans opinion, and one mans personal interpretation of Scripture, subject to error.

If you were to take a closer look at the fifth chapter of John, say verses 31-47 you would see that Jesus' opponents refused to accept his divine authority and claim to be the only Son from the Father. They hostilely demanded evidence for his Messianic claim and equality with God. Jesus answers their charges with the supporting evidence of witnesses. The Mosaic law had laid down the principle that the unsupported evidence of one person shall not prevail against a man for any crime or wrong in connection with any offence he committed (see Deut. 17:6). At least two or three witnesses were needed. Jesus begins his defense by citing John the Baptist as a witness, since John publicly pointed to Jesus as the Messiah and had repeatedly borne witness to him (see John 1:19, 20, 26, 29, 35, 36). Jesus also asserts that a greater witness to his identity are the signs he performed. He cites his works, not to point to himself but to point to the power of God working in and through him. He cites God as his supreme witness. Now if you were to carefully read the Old Testament, especially the books of Moses, you would see they point to Jesus as the Messiah, the promised Savior. The problem with the scribes and Pharisees was that they did not believe what Moses had written. They desired the praise of their fellow humans and because of that they were unable to recognize and understand the word of God. Their pride made them deaf to God's voice. God reveals himself to the lowly, to those who trust not in themselves, but in God.

Where you err, is disreguarding the proper context of the “works” referenced in the letters of Paul is seen in his audience and the historical context. Paul is contrasting the old covenant with the new covenant – the Law of Moses vs. faith in Jesus Christ. This is made explicit in Galatians 2:16 which is cited above and it is implicit in Paul’s other letters.The Law of Moses is the covenant in which Jesus’ death on the cross fulfills and replaces. There are more than 600 laws which prescribe how one should live in accordance with God which comprised God’s covenant with Israel. These are the works that Paul is describing.Paul letters are written to the Gentiles who, while desiring the salvation that only Jesus can offer, were attempting to obtain it by adhering to the Mosaic Law. Paul is instructing them that there is a new covenant with God open to all people; salvation is now through faith in Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all, not strict adherence to the Law of Moses which was for the Israelites. Paul never intends to say that one’s personal choices and actions have no effect on one’s salvation. James 2:14-26 appears to have been written to explain.

James uses strong language to condemn the non-biblical teaching of faith alone. His language is so strong that he declares that “faith without works is dead.” James, in verse 19, makes a compelling argument against faith alone by saying, “You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.” Consider that for a moment. If even the demons believe in God, why aren’t they in heaven? Wouldn’t they be saved simply by their belief? It must mean that faith alone is not enough. Salvation must be dependent on more than just faith alone!James gives two concrete examples in the Old Testament of how someone's works had salvic merit. The first is Abraham. James says, Was not Abraham our father (Oops, did he just call Abraham "father"?) justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,’ and he was called ‘the friend of God.’ See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Also thake note mi amigio, that Abraham’s faith was completed by the works which demonstrates that faith is not enough. The key is not the specific action that Abraham did, but rather his ascent to the will of God, or rather his obedience to what God wanted him to do. This is exactly the teaching of the Catholic Church upon which its morality is rooted: to believe in God and to do his will brings eternal life in heaven with God. Abraham ultimately did not sacrifice Isaac because God decided it was not necessary, but he was willing to be compliant with God’s demands.

The second example is of the prostitute Rahab. James says, "And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?"
Rahab protected spies from the king of Jericho (Joshua 2:1-21); she saved their lives. Despite her status as a prostitute, even though she had faith, her works brought her and her family’s salvation. “Works” in the letters of Paul are not the same “works” in James. Works in Paul can be more properly understood as works of the Mosaic Law. Works in James can be more properly understood as actions made through personal choices.

Hmmmm..... I think that Abraham and Rahab would disagree with ya.

Pax Christi

"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

notuptome · Feb 24, 2015

fordman said:

God preserved His word. Rome has no business claiming that which is Gods alone. Rome's part in the preservation of Gods word they screwed up anyhow. Inducing errors through translations into Latin and back again. God still guided His word through all the missteps of Rome to bring it through to this very day.

No more so than your popes and priests.

No one could in good conscience ever consider Rome to be lowly and humble.

All of the patriarchs of the OT would agree that only by Gods grace have they any good thing to offer. David summed it up when he said Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute iniquity.

The means of salvation has always been grace. Never has salvation been accorded through works of men. Works can only testify of what a man believes. Works do not cause a man to believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

keeth · Feb 24, 2015

You equate debate with literal violence in defense of Rome, when Rome is the one who continually doled out literal violence and murder against all that would not agree with her. I suppose you prefer imprisonment, torture, and death, to open debate and freedom to choose. Which is better, to have to know what you believe well enough to defend it by the word of God and the consequent toleration of those who are wrong that comes with such freedom, or to usurp the power of the state to abuse and murder all who would disagree and contend with you? The Devil and his angels and followers continuously contend with God Himself, which He allows for, are fallen beings now above God in this respect?

Lest you forget, almost without exception, every single Reformer was first a Catholic Priest or monk who came to a knowledge of the Holy Scriptures and could no longer support the false teachings of Rome. They all made their protests first, as Roman Catholics and left or were forced out of said church because it could not and would not be reformed by the testimony of the word of God. It was Catholics themselves that began the process described above which you condemn. Nor do many Catholics today agree upon many of the points you mentioned above.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was persecuted and argued with every step of the way for presenting the truth. He told us that those who truly follow Him will have to deal with the same. He never suggested in any way shape or form that the church would ever be the one persecuting in His name, or that it would or should ever silence the truth for the sake of unity. The only unity which can be established by such, is unity in apostasy. Make no mistake about it, those who unify in apostasy will persecute those who love and speak the truth, as they have always done. Christ did not prophesy falsely about such things, His words are truth.

You are correct, true Protestantism has always been unified in protesting the false doctrines of Rome. This is only natural, since as already stated, the Reformers themselves were all first Catholics who protested Rome’s contradictions to Holy Writ and subsequent claims of authority above the same. All the while decrying the abuses and murders they suffered under the ever persecuting hand of her usurped temporal authority. Now today she cries constantly for the unity of apostasy, while she reestablishes and enacts once again her usurped temporal authority.

What are you crying for here now, but that we all silence our convictions concerning our differences with each other and Rome, to form some false unity us and her? To what purpose? Do you not understand that unity with Rome means subjection to the same? What do you suppose she would do with the power this unity would provide? We already know what she will do when she gains the cooperation of an empowered majority. She will persecute her enemies, not the least of which includes authentic bible believing Christianity.

Merriam-Webster - [FONT=&quot]Full Definition of HERETIC[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1: a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, a great many are, as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ predicted. They are not heretics because they reject the teachings of Rome though, but because they reject the word of God as the final authority just as Rome herself does. They are her rightful children, or daughters shall we say. They have begun returning to her, and will continue to do so as the false quest for unity which you are promoting continues to gain ground. When it is accomplished, Rome’s usurpation of power will be complete once again, and she can and will again openly persecute authentic Christianity. [/FONT]

Stand against what? Protestantism did stand, though much of it is falling now. It stood against the greatest combined spiritual and temporal power of its day and defeated the same. Protestant principles of religious and civil liberties built upon scripture itself laid the foundation of one of the greatest nations on earth. Not to mention freeing countless millions from religious and civil oppression and bondage in already existing nations. It is that very freedom which allows for the diversity which you disdain. True freedom demands toleration in this world.

Protestantism was a power to be reckoned with in this world because the word of God was its strength and shield. This dependence and faith in the word of God lead it into direct conflict with Rome, and eventually away from her twisted vision of governance and abuse. The result as already mentioned was the establishment of superior governance for the people and by the people unto freedom for countless oppressed souls and a new and mighty nation built upon the same. Now that same freedom and humanities inclination for decline, has splintered “Protestantism” into endless denominations which place their own reasoning above that of scripture just as Rome does. The light is getting dim, and the fabric of society suffers along with it. The answer to this problem absolutely is not unity with and therefore subjugation to Rome once again. The answer is willing submission to the word of God once again. These are the two paths for humanity to go down. Those who return to Rome will worship the image to the first beast of Rev 13, whom Rome (BABYLON THE GREAT) rides. Those who return to the word of God will be the saints who do not worship the beast or its image.

Yes, they should go prayerfully to the word of God instead. Most on these boards are not here to learn, as much as to teach.

A true Protestant does not look to others for truth, but to the word of God. Denominations be damned, the word of God is truth. If you’re defending a denomination, you’re messing up. I belong to a denomination, but it is not my salvation, and is only mine because it stands by the word of God. We must each make this decision for ourselves in relation to the word of God, not unity. Unity that denies the word of God is a unity unto destruction of the soul.

Gather around the life and teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, not creeds.

I’m certainly glad you figured that out.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

RyBread · Feb 24, 2015

Well that escalated quickly.

mikeuk · Feb 25, 2015

keeth said:

And that I suppose is a part of why I have announced my leaving on another thread with the question "will the real Christians please stand up"

The lack of integrity of argument here is astonishing! The unwillingness to research ANYTHING before insult or criticise it.

Have you never heard of the Vendeans for example? Hundreds of thousands of french peasants slaughtered, every woman and child because they would not let go of their (catholic) faith, till the rivers ran red with their blood? Perhaps the worst slaughter on the basis of religious sect ever in history, although the Sunni vs Shia have had their moments.

Later the Paris Commune , leading to the belated apology of France at the sacre coeur? What about the english martyrs, the disgraceful treatment of those who would not yield to protestantism, indeed the catholic persecution across UK and other countries that lasted centuries.

The violence committed in the name of religion on all sides is disgraceful, but thankfully or not, depending upon your point of view, atheist fascist regimes are far better at killing than any religious. Pol Pot. Stalin. Holocaust. Chinese Cultural revolution. Rwanda. Serbo croat cleansing. So on.

I can only urge people to discover the truth, before insult, and read RCC catechism before "invent" a doctrine to criticise it with.

Catholics do not have the differences others speak of. Either you believe in the teaching of the magisterium as presented in the catechism. Or you are not a catholic. We do not get to pick and choose, thankfully we do not have to, in our terms because RCC is consistent with scripture, but requires knowledge of history and tradition to understand what it means. And with so many and varied interpretations between protestants, who are they to pretend there is a unique understanding between them? violated by RCC

That I came here to find credible alternatives to RCC interpretation of some scriptures underpinning catholicism, and I leave none the wiser.

Farewell. I cannot say it has been pleasant.

I leave with the remark I made on another thread.

That a new or tentative Christian coming to this forum asking " what should I believe" would leave more confused than when they came, wondering how ( some) people seemingly dedicated to a vocation of love could be so nasty to each other. And the protestants achieve that all by themselves, no RCC help needed to stir up the dissent or nastiness already there nothing to do with us!

I think you should all decide the core of what you believe and unite around it, because the only unity I see on this forum his anti RCC, on every other doctrine you are divided, and with all the mutually exclusive variants, and pick and mix of those doctrines between people, most of you are teaching false teaching, the only question is, are any of you preaching the truth? Statistically it can only be few..

It is not a good thing - I wish you all well.

Jeff_56 · Feb 25, 2015

i.e. as he told us disciples, as he tells his disciples who follow him, it is good to forsake sin, to renounce society, to give up the world's ways, to repent of heresy(specifically as identified in the op/thread as described in yahweh's word);

take great joy in great time spent with yahweh elohim - father of all living, creator - frequently EVERY DAY and
listen to him. gradually your(our) focus will change from selfish to being aware and focused on HIM , HIS WAY;

then speak what he speaks (i.e. not of men, not of self, not from self, not from history, not from so-called authorities) .... speak what he speaks, do what he does.(i.e. not what man does, not what the flesh does, not what nor how the religious (hypocritical) leaders do -- do what the creator does EVERY DAY. learn this like little children (only little children will ever see the kingdom of heaven) and start living like father lives; start and continue learning and doing what father yahweh does ALL THE TIME. i.e. abide in him, by faith in yahshua hamashiach(christ jesus master savior king messiah).

KenAllan said:

keeth · Feb 25, 2015

mikeuk said:

Are you suggesting in the above, that Protestants were responsible for slaughter of French peasants in Vendee? If so, who is twisting history. The French Revolution was the result of Protestantism being defeated and banished in that nation. After about one hundred years of unbridled or restrained Catholic spiritual and temporal leadership, the disparity between rich and poor was so great that revolution and rebellion were unavoidable. Protestantism was not involved, they themselves had been killed or banished in this nation long before this event transpired. Atheism, as a political entity was the result of completely Catholic controlled nation. As far as the rest of your post, I have no time right now to address it. Suffice it to say, those who would be abused and killed for what they believe by Catholic controlled governments, did end up at war with the same. The maturity of Protestant principles of government though, lead to true civil and religious freedom. This cannot be said for Rome.

mikeuk · Feb 25, 2015

keeth said:

And that of course is the problem. Myths and lack of research -
Protestant victimization of catholics has always been greater. Even in you Disregard the thousands of catholics put to death under Henry and his troops, and his even more murderous daughter.

What about Cromwell managed over 3000 in one small sea port Drogheda with his puritan troops and I quote " It has pleased God to bless our endeavors... this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches", a massacre which went on and on... wexford another 2000 etc etc etc . But even that pales into insignificance with the hundreds of thousands of catholics killed by starvation during the protestant colonization of Ireland.

Whatever you regard the number of victims of inquisition they pale into insignificance with protestant killings. Even Calvin himself got a few burned to death, and Luther set himself up as God saying "“Whoever teaches otherwise than I teach, condemns God, and must remain a child of hell.” ensuring yet more intolerance.

Every death is regrettable, but protestants have no high ground on this. And because such as you won't research it, is the reason, I will no longer post here.

Farewell.
I repeat, protestants seem united only on anti RCC, they disagree with every material matter of doctrine. I think you should focus on that and the fact that any new Christian coming here, will leave none the wiser and more confused.

Reply or not as you will, I will not come back to answer you.

yogosans14 · Feb 25, 2015

Why are some saying "Roman Catholics aren't saved"?thats Gods place to judge alone. That's like saying Calvinists are going to Hell because I'm Arminian.

GaryA · Feb 25, 2015

mikeuk:

The answers you seek are indeed here - and may be found. However, in order to find them - it is you who must be willing to listen and learn - not argue - not debate - but listen - carefully and thoughtfully - to what is being presented to you.

You absolutely MUST:

~ be willing to be patient enough to allow yourself to come to a better knowledge of the truth about many things.

~ be willing to consider the possibility that you have been led to believe some things that are simply not the truth.

~ be willing to temporarily "set aside" everything you know - or think you know - about the Bible, etc. - and [ really, actually ] consider a different view of things.

If a person who is Catholic comes in here [ truly ] searching for answers --- would it not seem a bit odd for them to continually spout "every one of you should study Catholism" while ignoring everything they are being told by other CC members...???

When you are ready to swallow your PRIDE -- and are willing to be "the student" rather than "the professor" -- because it is far more important - and you find it necessary - that you actually know the real truth as concerning the HRE/RCC...

If you are not willing to take a different approach -- that is your prerogative. Go your way - and I pray that God will make a way to humble you enough to make you realize that [ really, actually ] "knowing the truth" is far more important than anything in this world - and cause you to desire to [ really, actually ] "know the truth" more than anything - and cause you to be willing to let go of the "Catholic Pride" that you are hanging onto so dearly.

However, if you are willing to hear...

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

I believe that i can answer many of your questions.

For example --- there is a "valid reason" for the "thousands of denominations"... ( and it is really quite simple )

However, my question is --- are are willing to hear...???

GaryA · Feb 25, 2015

yogosans14 said:

Yes, it is God's place to judge...

However, because of the true nature of what is at the core of the HRE/RCC - those who place their trust in Roman Catholicism ( i.e., the Catholic Church ) will [ tend to ] be led astray - away from true salvation instead of to it.

notuptome · Feb 25, 2015

yogosans14 said:

Rich men like religious men have a great deal of difficulty coming to salvation in Christ. To pass through the eye of the needle one must set aside all of one's baggage, self righteousness, and enter empty handed, humble with no merit to seek even the smallest of favors.

Never worthy of salvation and never able to merit salvation. We do not judge another's salvation. When we preach salvation those who are saved rejoice and those who are lost complain. They who are lost tell on themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mikeuk · Feb 25, 2015

GaryA said:

Gary.

Perhaps you would quote the context of what I said, and so listen to the obvious sense of it?

For example, I have no idea what you believe, and I would not dream of inventing it in order to criticise you for it, because to do so would be to bear false witness. Nor - and this is important- would I listen to the hearsay of what your enemies say, I would do the ethical thing, and ask you what you believe first, and criticise only on that. Indeed until I know what you believe, how can I know whether it is appropriate to criticise? I might even agree. Would you expect any less of me, or any Christian? Or would you be happy to be condemned on hearsay?

So my comment was only to those who criticise, is that they should criticise catholicism for what it actually believes, not a caricature of it.To do that they must be willing to find out what it believes first, and it is there to read in the catechism. Which they should read if they want to criticise.

But they do not have to criticise it, in which case they do not have to read it at all.
But that is not what they do here. Many criticise on hearsay, and in doings so bear false witness. They seem to care nothing of the truth.

As to the rest of your post. Like all others - I ask questions. I expect answers, not insults, nor patronising answers.
Nobody has to answer, but if they do I expect an answer to the question I asked, not a rant about what they think I believe. Would you expect any less of others, if you asked a question?

I am open to be persuaded. But having seen no consensus amongst any of you, then If I was to "listen and learn" all that was said without debate, I would be a raving schizophrenic by now, since you expect me to believe in the fundamentally opposing views of many who answer who cannot even agree with each other!

And - since I know many here bear false witness against RCC, neither can I trust anything else they say.

Take a simple example. Those who say we believe in "justification by works" do not merit further reading from me.
Because they do not care about truth. Or they would know that we believe in salvation by "grace through faith". That works have merit do not contradict that, nor does it become "salvation by works".

If ever anyone makes a criticism based on other than truth they lose me at that point. I give them one , or two more chances, then they are no longer worth reading. A couple I no longer answer because of it.

So I will take nothing at face value, and neither would you, so why do you expect me to do so now?.

I clearly have thought about what is said which is why I give the answers I do. Some do not make grammatical sense let alone any other! Do you really expect me to agree with nonsense? And if so which version of nonsense?

Gary - it starts with respect. What you said is not respectful of any other person, including me.
You presume the right to impose doctrine unquestioned, which you would not accept yourself, so it does not earn respect from me either. I will listen and read as I do, but do not expect other than probing of the answers you give. I know a lot of opposing views from both sides of the fence, and the weaknesses in some of the arguments.

I am open to persuasion, but to do it you will need to be convincing. And you expect me to listen to those who care nothing for truth in the way they criticise RCC and I refuse. It is now unlikely. I have had more than enough unreasoned criticism from those who do not care about truth. Nor do I care about their other views, once they break that bond of truth. As have most on this thread.

I have always been happy to accept criticism of it for what it believes, but not the myths, and where there is justification I explain. We are criticised for honoring Mary with the title "mother of God" as heresy, yet Elizabeth honored her "Mother of Lord", so why criticise us for reading scripture?

If you can give me a better explanation of some issues, or even a reasoned explanation even if I do not agree with it, you may earn my trust. So You may in time earn respect that gets people to listen to what you have to say, but you will do it by patient argument, answering the objections others have. Not by "demanding" they listen unquestioning.

But - I have given up on you all. Too much unreasoned and unreasonable criticism.
And more to the point, none of you agree with each other, so if there are only varied personal opinions, I may as well use my own!!

I came asking specific questions. I got no specific answers, the few I got did not make sense.

Jeff_56 · Feb 25, 2015

the specific answers are all, simply, Scripture. the Word of the Living Yahweh. not any man's interpretation nor opinion nor mankind's ideas, rather only Yahweh's.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter[/h]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

even the disciples did not understand until Yahweh revealed to them.

even more so then,

who would expect deceived souls tricked by hasatan to know or even be able to know anything since

they reject the Word of Yahweh and put over it the traditions of men and the doctrines of demons - all of which

Yahweh, Yahshua, and all the born again ekklesia reject.

yogosans14 · Feb 25, 2015

GaryA said:

Their are religious Catholics and then their are those who are truly born again. Just like their is religious Protestants and those who are truly born again.

Catholic Heresy (for the record)

Banned

kennethcadwell

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

keeth

Guest

Member

mikeuk

Guest

Banned

keeth

Guest

mikeuk

Guest

yogosans14

Guest

GaryA

Guest

GaryA

Guest

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Banned

yogosans14

Guest