ATONEMENT

Sophia · Mar 1, 2015

Is it?

Let us use common sense here.

The premise of Penal Substitution is a forensic or positional legal transaction. It is taught that the actual sinners sin (all of it, past, present and future) is credited to the account of Jesus and Jesus is then punished as a substitute for the sinner. It is also taught that the obedient track record of Jesus is then credited to the account of the sinner and God then looks at the sinner and pretends they are righteous.

Thus under this "cloak" provided by the Penal Substitution model the sinner can sin without undergoing the penalty for the sin.

That is a license to sin.

License - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Now an adherent of Penal Substitution is never going to say that God has given them "permission" to engage in an "otherwise unlawful activity" of course, what they will say though is that if one does in fact engage in the unlawful activity that the penalty due has already been paid for.

It is kind of like having all one's future speeding fines paid for in advance by some benefactor. Whilst one "ought" not speed, if one does then the legal penalty is already paid. So in practical effect the driver has a license to speed.

The Bible does not teach anything close to that.

The Bible teaches that the "wages of sin is death" and that the "gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ."

Those are TWO ROADS or TWO PATHS not "fine not paid for" or "fine paid for."

We know this because the Bible says this...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is "no condemnation" for those IN Christ Jesus. Those IN Christ Jesus don't WALK after the flesh, they WALK after the Spirit.

This is because the "law of the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ" is what sets us free from the law of sin and death, not by a "fine paid" but rather by a WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Jesus came to planet Earth in the flesh and condemned sin in a flesh body (He overcame it) and the reason He did this was so that the "righteousness of the law" be fulfilled IN us. With a fulfilled righteousness IN us (pure hearts) due to us WALKING after the Spirit we no longer "sin unto death." Thus we are set free from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. Hence the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ.

Paul stated...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Whom we OBEY reveals whom we belong to. We either obey "sin unto death" (ie. earn sins wages) or we obey unto righteousness (abide in Jesus Christ WALKING after the Spirit). This is why it is OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART that SETS US FREE FROM SIN and produces a SERVANT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That is what the Bible so plainly and obviously teaches. It is as plain as the nose on anyone's face. It is black and white. It is as clear as day.

Penal Substitution totally destroys what I have written above by substituting it with a mere notion of a POSITION held which is totally disconnected from DOING. In general, any teaching that requires DOING is utterly rejected by the Penal Substitution adherents because they view DOING as being a WORKS SALVATION and they abhor the notion of that because it implies ADDING SOMETHING to the LEGAL PROVISION EXCHANGE they believe.

The truth is that when the Bible speaks of "not of works" it is speaking of "outward deeds done apart from 'grace THROUGH faith'" which are dead deeds because there is no spiritual root in them. We have to plug into God so to speak so that His Spirit works through us and we walk according to it.

This is all common sense.

Remember...

Sins paid for = sins not forgiven.

A fine paid for is not a fine forgiven. Common sense. Yet many throw reason out the window because they find an emotional comfort in magical teachings like Penal Substitution.

Faith and works go hand in hand, but that doesn't somehow contradict the sacrifice of Christ being substitory and His righteousness imputed to us.
Faith is displayed by works.
If you have issue with the sacrifice of Christ being sufficient, then you claim a works based salvation, refuted by all the Apostles and Christ Himself.

The_highwayman · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Is it?

Let us use common sense here.

The premise of Penal Substitution is a forensic or positional legal transaction. It is taught that the actual sinners sin (all of it, past, present and future) is credited to the account of Jesus and Jesus is then punished as a substitute for the sinner. It is also taught that the obedient track record of Jesus is then credited to the account of the sinner and God then looks at the sinner and pretends they are righteous.

Thus under this "cloak" provided by the Penal Substitution model the sinner can sin without undergoing the penalty for the sin.

That is a license to sin.

License - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Now an adherent of Penal Substitution is never going to say that God has given them "permission" to engage in an "otherwise unlawful activity" of course, what they will say though is that if one does in fact engage in the unlawful activity that the penalty due has already been paid for.

It is kind of like having all one's future speeding fines paid for in advance by some benefactor. Whilst one "ought" not speed, if one does then the legal penalty is already paid. So in practical effect the driver has a license to speed.

The Bible does not teach anything close to that.

The Bible teaches that the "wages of sin is death" and that the "gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ."

Those are TWO ROADS or TWO PATHS not "fine not paid for" or "fine paid for."

We know this because the Bible says this...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is "no condemnation" for those IN Christ Jesus. Those IN Christ Jesus don't WALK after the flesh, they WALK after the Spirit.

This is because the "law of the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ" is what sets us free from the law of sin and death, not by a "fine paid" but rather by a WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Jesus came to planet Earth in the flesh and condemned sin in a flesh body (He overcame it) and the reason He did this was so that the "righteousness of the law" be fulfilled IN us. With a fulfilled righteousness IN us (pure hearts) due to us WALKING after the Spirit we no longer "sin unto death." Thus we are set free from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. Hence the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ.

Paul stated...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Whom we OBEY reveals whom we belong to. We either obey "sin unto death" (ie. earn sins wages) or we obey unto righteousness (abide in Jesus Christ WALKING after the Spirit). This is why it is OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART that SETS US FREE FROM SIN and produces a SERVANT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That is what the Bible so plainly and obviously teaches. It is as plain as the nose on anyone's face. It is black and white. It is as clear as day.

Penal Substitution totally destroys what I have written above by substituting it with a mere notion of a POSITION held which is totally disconnected from DOING. In general, any teaching that requires DOING is utterly rejected by the Penal Substitution adherents because they view DOING as being a WORKS SALVATION and they abhor the notion of that because it implies ADDING SOMETHING to the LEGAL PROVISION EXCHANGE they believe.

The truth is that when the Bible speaks of "not of works" it is speaking of "outward deeds done apart from 'grace THROUGH faith'" which are dead deeds because there is no spiritual root in them. We have to plug into God so to speak so that His Spirit works through us and we walk according to it.

This is all common sense.

Remember...

Sins paid for = sins not forgiven.

A fine paid for is not a fine forgiven. Common sense. Yet many throw reason out the window because they find an emotional comfort in magical teachings like Penal Substitution.

So do you even believe Jesus was made SIN so we could be made Righteous?

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Not substitution but EXAMPLE.

Jesus did not obey so you do not have to. Substitution teaches that Jesus obeyed in your place so you don't have to. Penal Substitution teaches that the requirements for "reconciliation" are met by a substitution which provides a "positional legal exchange" and thus destroys the necessity of heart reformation being central to reconciliation.

In other words the substitution model teaches that GOD HAS TO CHANGE in the way He views the sinner, not that the sinner had to change in order to be reconciled. The sinner can stay wicked under Penal Substitution because their wickedness no longer matters, God is pretending they are not wicked.

It is kind of like an adulterous husband needing to be reconciled to his wife. Instead of the husband having to repent and forsake his adultery and seek forgiveness from his wife, he instead has someone else be faithful as his substitute, the faithfulness of the someone else is then credited to the unfaithful husband and the adultery is credited to the faithful substitute. The wife then PRETENDS that the husband is not a faithful husband even though he keeps on committing adultery.

That is what people believe. It would be comedy if it were not real people really believing it. It is so stupid that it just boggles the mind.

It is not God who has to change. God is the "offended party."

The sinner is the "offending party" and it is the sinner who has to change. That is why the Bible makes statements like this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

But, oh no, one does not have to do that says the Penal Substitution adherent. To confess and FORSAKE would be "works." That would be "adding to the Finished Work of the Cross" (the legal exchange provision). No, no, all we have to do is "trust in Jesus" and "trust in the provision" by which God PRETENDS that we are righteous, "trust in the provision" by which God PUNISHED Jesus in our place, "trust in that" and it is all good.

What kind of superstition has infiltrated Christianity for so many to fall for such obvious nonsense? Have we lost our minds?

The Bible says this...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

WALK = DO = TAKE ACTION.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus didn't give Himself for us that He might cloak ongoing wickedness with His obedient track record, He didn't give Himself for us to pay a "sin fine" we owed. Jesus gave Himself for us to REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY AND MAKE US PURE BY WHICH WOULD BE ZEALOUS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That is what the Bible teaches and the vast majority of professing Christianity in 2015 rejects it and accepts fables instead.

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Have you ever studied that passage? The context of "being made the righteousness of God IN Him" relates to "working together with God lest grace be received in vain."

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith.

Grace = Divine Influence of God upon our hearts which teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly uprightly in the present age (Tit 2:11-12).

Faith = Wholeheartedly yielding to God God, ie. FAITHFULNESS (see Hebrews 11).

When we yield to God wholeheartedly we are totally transformed by the power of God. Hence when the Bible says, "He was made sin for us that we be made the righteousness of God IN Him" it is speaking the same sentiment as...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What the ministers of Satan do is take 2Cor 5:21, they ISOLATE IT and they REDEFINE IT by reading their Penal Substitution doctrine into the text. Thus they conclude...

being made sin for us = Jesus being punished as a substitute thus absorbing the wrath of God = sin fine paid in full
being made the righteousness of God in Him = Purely a legal position where God PRETENDS that the obedience of Jesus is the actual obedience of the sinner.

Jesus was made a sin offering on our behalf that we follow His example and be made the righteousness of God via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. In others words, WE ABIDE IN JESUS WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND ARE MADE CLEAN.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

Sophia said:

Any perceived contradiction only exists in the minds of those who have fallen for the Penal Substitution deception.

A perception of contradiction exists because the Penal Substitution doctrine CONTRADICTS THE TRUTH. It is an insidious and POPULAR lie of the devil.

Salvation is not "works based" in the sense that "keeping rules and regulations can save someone." Keeping rules and regulations can only reform the OUTER MAN.

Salvation is "DOING BASED" and "ABIDING BASED" and "WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT BASED" because "saved by grace THROUGH faith" is speaking of a WORKING DYNAMIC WHICH PRODUCES A RESULT.

That is why Jesus taught DO, KEEP, ABIDE, STRIVE.

The sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient in doing this...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

The death of Christ established the New Covenant by which we can have our past sins purged from our hearts by the blood of Christ upon entering into the New Covenant by repentance and faith. That is what the Bible plainly teaches.

Penal Substitution is not taught anywhere in the Bible. In fact the doctrine is only 400 years old. It was invented in the 1600s by the Reformers. Look it up.

In order to believe in Penal Substitution one has to shut their mind down to reason and refuse to examine deeply what they believe. That may be a comfortable thing to do now but it won't be any excuse at the judgement.

The_highwayman · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Not substitution but EXAMPLE.

Jesus did not obey so you do not have to. Substitution teaches that Jesus obeyed in your place so you don't have to. Penal Substitution teaches that the requirements for "reconciliation" are met by a substitution which provides a "positional legal exchange" and thus destroys the necessity of heart reformation being central to reconciliation.

In other words the substitution model teaches that GOD HAS TO CHANGE in the way He views the sinner, not that the sinner had to change in order to be reconciled. The sinner can stay wicked under Penal Substitution because their wickedness no longer matters, God is pretending they are not wicked.

It is kind of like an adulterous husband needing to be reconciled to his wife. Instead of the husband having to repent and forsake his adultery and seek forgiveness from his wife, he instead has someone else be faithful as his substitute, the faithfulness of the someone else is then credited to the unfaithful husband and the adultery is credited to the faithful substitute. The wife then PRETENDS that the husband is not a faithful husband even though he keeps on committing adultery.

That is what people believe. It would be comedy if it were not real people really believing it. It is so stupid that it just boggles the mind.

It is not God who has to change. God is the "offended party."

The sinner is the "offending party" and it is the sinner who has to change. That is why the Bible makes statements like this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

But, oh no, one does not have to do that says the Penal Substitution adherent. To confess and FORSAKE would be "works." That would be "adding to the Finished Work of the Cross" (the legal exchange provision). No, no, all we have to do is "trust in Jesus" and "trust in the provision" by which God PRETENDS that we are righteous, "trust in the provision" by which God PUNISHED Jesus in our place, "trust in that" and it is all good.

What kind of superstition has infiltrated Christianity for so many to fall for such obvious nonsense? Have we lost our minds?

The Bible says this...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

WALK = DO = TAKE ACTION.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus didn't give Himself for us that He might cloak ongoing wickedness with His obedient track record, He didn't give Himself for us to pay a "sin fine" we owed. Jesus gave Himself for us to REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY AND MAKE US PURE BY WHICH WOULD BE ZEALOUS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That is what the Bible teaches and the vast majority of professing Christianity in 2015 rejects it and accepts fables instead.

So you do not believe that Jesus was made SIN so we could be made righteous?

So You do not believe that by Jesus obedience to death of the cross that many were made righteous?

So you do not believe that we must confess the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead?

Is righteousness faith based and imputed or works based and daily sanctification?

What you describe in your post has nothing to do with substitution sacrifice that Jesus Christ did by laying himself down for man kind.

If you are suggesting that Jesus was our example of how we must lay ourselves down to accept salvation, you are doing nothing more than repackaging, pentecostal works based salvation...that you also believe you can lose at any moment, if you do not adhere to good works.....

The_highwayman · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Just as I suspected....all you are doing is repackaging Pentecostal, to be exact, Assembly of God, works based SELF RIGHTEOUS salvation, that you also believe you can lose at any moment if you DO NOT: DO, KEEP, ABIDE OR STRIVE!

You do not believe in any form of sacrificial substitution, because you cannot fathom, what true grace is or understand the what saving faith is. You beleive that by your obedience you are saved, this only adds to the work of the Cross....

Stop stating Jesus was punished for me, I never said that, Jesus freely laid himself down for me, as the Father commanded...

The issue you works based folks havee is that you do not have any understanding about God's love[grace],you cannot accept that God so loved the world so much, that he gave his only begotten son, to take your place....You have to add to what Jesus did, because you cannot get you out of the gospel....

You very carefully refute all of 2 Cor 5.21, by restating what it means, so that you can add your self to the gospel....and you completely refute all of Romans 4 & 5.

Righteousness is a position and a gift from God not personal performance...Romans 5 proves this

sparkman · Mar 1, 2015

This person may also be one who believes in Moral Government Theology. Moral Government Theology is heretical and denies original sin, salvation by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and penal substitutionary atonement. Quite often they are sinless perfectionists and believe in open theism.

Contemporary teachers of horrible theology include Gordon Olson, Harry Conn, and Winkey Pratney. There is a group of street and campus preachers, including Jesse Morrell, Kerrigan Skelly, Jed Smock, Clarence Cope and Micah Armstrong who believe this theology and promote it on college campuses. If you view some of the videos of these guys on college campuses, you will see some pretty strange behavior, including them making comments about young men and womens' sexuality in very explicit terms, such as calling them wh*res, homos, and m*sturbators.

The theology behind Moral Government Theology is strongly influenced by the teachings of the heretic monk Pelagius and Charles Finney. Finney denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and penal substitutionary atonement. Unfortunately, Finney is considered a hero by many in the contemporary church.

By the way, YWAM allowed many of the false teachers above to teach at their missionary training facilities and continues to do so today. The director of the YWAM School of Evangelism in the Philippines, Mitch Metzger, teaches this theology.

Many of the converts to this Moral Government Theology are young people, and they are very Pharisaic in their attitude. They are fine with using this sort of condescending, vile language to address other peoples' sins. My guess is that they have an underlying self-righteous nature themselves.

For more information on this Moral Government Theology, here's a few resources:

The False God and Gospel of Moral Government Theology - Christian Research Institute

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ChristiansAgainstMoralGovernmentTheologyOpenTheism/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ChristiansAgainstAbusiveCampusStreetPreachers/

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

I notice that all you have done in your response is make unsubstantiated claims as well as make a gnat out of a single point I made.

I carefully refute all 2Cor 5:21 by restating what it means? Is that so? What does it mean then? You don't say anything about it? Why not be specific.

Likewise, you claim I completely refute all Rom 4 and 5. Can you be specific regarding that charge? I doubt you can without undermining what you believe. Romans 4 and 5 are pretty clear and nowhere do they teach Penal Substitution or Moral Transfer.

I can claim the moon is made of cheese but it means nothing unless the moon is actually made of cheese.

So what exactly have I "added" to what Jesus did in order to put "me" in the Gospel? Please be specific.

Jesus did teach to seek, strive, knock, abide, do, dig deep, repent, endure, count the cost, pick up our cross, lose our life, keep his commandments, sin no more and much more. Are those the "additions" that you are uncomfortable with?

Here I quote you...

So what are you saying? Obedience is optional? Is that what you mean?

2Th_1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Are we not to obey the Gospel?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Are we not to obey from the heart the doctrine once delivered in order to be set free from sin?

Where does anyone in the Bible speak about "adding to the work of the cross"? The Galatians were criticised for turning back to the Law of Moses, specifically circumcision. Yet Paul in correcting them taught them that righteousness is by faith because faith WORKS by love.

Is that particular work offensive to you? Are you offended by a "working faith"?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
It is faith that works by love that avails righteousness, for it is love that fulfills the law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

This is why love does not void the law but upholds it. If we love we won't murder, steal, lie or cheat.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

It is all so very simple, yet the simplicity of the truth is rejected by many who prefer the fables that they cannot substantiate with Scripture and common sense.

Sins Paid For = Sins Not Forgiven

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Righteousness is actually DOING WHAT IS RIGHT from a faith that works by love.

Righteousness is not an abstract position apart from manifest purity of heart. Genuine righteousness can only proceed out of a pure heart, a heart submitted wholly to the grace of God.

The doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is an invention of men. The Bible clearly states that FAITH ITSELF is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was not justified by circumcision, for if so that would make God a debter to Abraham. Rather it was Abraham's FAITH that God reckoned as righteousness despite any past sins of Abraham.

In other words God is willing to forgive us our trespasses if we come clean with Him in repentance and walk by a faith that works by love in submission to the lead of His grace. That is why David would say...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Blessed is the man whom God will not reckon iniquity in whose spirit there is NO GUILE. In other words blessed is the man whom God forgives of their sin in whom has a pure heart. Psalm 32 is what Paul references in Romans 4 right after stating that FAITH ITSELF is reckoned as righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Also, Romans chapter 3 ends with...

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith establishes the law because faith works by love and love fulfills the law. We don't steal, murder, lie, cheat of commit adultery because some "rule" or "law" says not to, no, we don't do these things because we LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Elin · Mar 1, 2015

Willie-T said:

OK. . .

God the Son is not God the Father.

God the Son became the man (Jn 1:14) Jesus of Nazareth who is both man (human) and God (deity).

Jesus' deity did not die, his humanity died,
just as our immortal spirits do not die (cease to exist), only our bodies die.

Regarding the wrath of God, Scripture reveals God's wrath on sin:

Jn 3:36: ". . .whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Ro 5:9: ". . .how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath by him?"

See Ro 1:18; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6; 1Th 1:10.

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
for our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement.

Elin · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

I do not base God's truth in human "common sense."

There is nothing "common" about God's truth. . .it is anything but common.

I base God's truth only in his special divine revelation given in the Scriptures.

No more than a caterpillare being transformed (metamorphoo, Ro 12:2) into a butterfly is a license to return to, to eat caterpillar food.

And any caterpillar who thinks this is what it means to be a butterfly does not understand the new nature of the butterfly.

tribesman · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Just as I suspected....all you are doing is repackaging Pentecostal, to be exact, Assembly of God, works based SELF RIGHTEOUS salvation, that you also believe you can lose at any moment if you DO NOT: DO, KEEP, ABIDE OR STRIVE!

You do not believe in any form of sacrificial substitution, because you cannot fathom, what true grace is or understand the what saving faith is. You beleive that by your obedience you are saved, this only adds to the work of the Cross....

Stop stating Jesus was punished for me, I never said that, Jesus freely laid himself down for me, as the Father commanded...

The issue you works based folks havee is that you do not have any understanding about God's love[grace],you cannot accept that God so loved the world so much, that he gave his only begotten son, to take your place....You have to add to what Jesus did, because you cannot get you out of the gospel....

You very carefully refute all of 2 Cor 5.21, by restating what it means, so that you can add your self to the gospel....and you completely refute all of Romans 4 & 5.

Righteousness is a position and a gift from God not personal performance...Romans 5 proves this

Skinski7 have yet to prove that he is perfectly sinless. Somewhere along the line I think he is well informed by now whom to cry out to when the adventurous journey is getting all too tiresome and the eye opener comes.

The_highwayman · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Righteousness is actually DOING WHAT IS RIGHT from a faith that works by love.

This is not at all what the Bible says. The Bible says based on what Jesus did on the cross & nothing else we are given the gift of righteousness What you gravely and radically miss, is that righteousness is a gift, the BIble calls it a gift, it is given to you by God's grace:

Romans 5.17-21
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

You better look above and see what the Bible says man...your pure heart is nothing more than dirty rags, your pure heart will not save you and is counted as self righteous works. Only the work the shed blood can make of Jesus makes you righteous[Rom 5.9-[SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him]

Justified is being made righteous...Bible 101 man....Righteousness is a gift to you and not based on a single thing you do, you cannot obey enough to become righteous before God, you cannot have a pure enough heart to become righteous, all your theology does is make you a god unto your self, you make yourself a savior, somehow thinking that you have a role to play in God's simple plan of redemtionm....No sir, we have nothing to do, except believe, by faith, what Jesus did for us.

So according to you, Romans 5, and most of the Epistles is an invention of Man.

It is counted for righteousness and In Abraham's case it was because he was not under the law, so his SINS were not imputed into him[See Romans5.13] Furthermore Paul is trying to show you, using Abraham as an example, that all you have to do is have faith in what Jesus Did on the cross to become righteous....IOW, he is showing you that exercising simple faith like Abraham's in what God did for him and us, makes you righteous...Abrahams works did not amke him righteous, his simple believing faith made him righteous...he did not lose anything when he missed it, because righteousness is a position not based on personal performance...

Gal 2.21 says [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You are frustrating the grace of God , because you do not understand that your are given the gift of eternal life and the gift of righteousness through God great grace and receive those things by the simple saving faith every man is given....by what Jesus and him alone and his shed blood did for you...

That is the gospel....not obedience, not a heart condition, not anything elwe you add to it....your self righteous salvation is a lie from hell...

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

Elin said:

"Common Sense" is simply an allusion to reasonable thinking. Whether it be "common" in the sense of "popularity" is not the issue, rather it is "common" in the sense that we are all endowed with an ability to reason.

A rejection of reason is a rejection of truth. God is reasonable and the teachings expressed in the Bible are reasonable. That is why no human being has any excuse as it pertains to choosing evil. God holds us all responsible because it is the reasonable thing to abstain from vice and partake in virtue.

Penal Substitution is both unscriptural and unreasonable and I very clearly outlined some of the clear reasons for this conclusion above.

I will repeat them here...

Now people are free to throw reason out the window and yield themselves to fables if that makes them more comfortable.

Point 1 above all by itself destroys the Penal Substitution view. A "fine paid for" is not a "fine forgiven." Yet those whom uphold the Penal view will claim in one moment that God forgives sins and then in the next claim that all sin must be paid for in full. A towel cannot be drenched with water and dry at the same time.

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

tribesman said:

Is that all you have to offer to the conversation?

I know it is much easier to make statements like that as opposed to addressing the logical inconsistencies of Penal Substitution. The Pharisees would treat Jesus in a similar manner in the way they would make blanket pronouncements in spite of the obvious truth evident right in front of them.

michael56 · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Absolutely

The power of sin is the law(or should we say the penalty attached to the law if you break it) 1Cor15:56

Therefore, with the true power of sin removed from the Christian, sin shall not be their master for they are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

The core of Paul's message of grace

Some people kid themselves they can, in reality live a good enough life under the law to attain to Heaven under it. But as the pass mark under the law of obedience is 100%, no slip ups they cannot of course

Skinski7 · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Skinski7 said:

Righteousness is actually DOING WHAT IS RIGHT from a faith that works by love.

It isn't?

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

It is very obvious that righteousness is rooted in a faith that works by love and it is by faith that we abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ walking after the Spirit. It is in this manner that righteousness is FULFILLED in us (Rom 8:1-4).

Yet you are forced to reject that because you want to believe in the fable of Penal Substitution and the doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness of Christ."

The_highwayman said:

The gift is the DYNAMIC OF TRANSFORMATION not some ABSTRACT PROVISION.

The gift of God is "salvation by grace THROUGH faith" and "eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ." The THROUGH is the ABIDING or YIELDING WHOLEHEARTEDLY in the grace of God. Grace is the divine influence of God upon our hearts.

Noah was saved by grace through faith because Noah obeyed God yielding to God's lead. It was through the grace of God that Noah was warned of the impending flood and given instruction on how to be preserved through it. It was through faith that Noah "worked together with God" and produced the ark.

This is why Jesus taught that we must be DOERS and not hearers only. If one does not "work together with God" then the grace of God is received to no working effect (2Cor 6:1).

Nothing in Romans 5:17-21 refutes that. You just quote a passage of the Bible and then make a statement to the effect of "we don't have to DO anything because that is adding to the cross." Where does the Bible teach anything even remotely close to what you claim? Jesus Himself, the founder of Christianity said that we must be doers.

Somehow you are able to twist the words of Paul in your mind in order to refute the plain teachings of Jesus. Is your heart so seared that you can do such a thing without batting an eyelid?

michael56 · Mar 1, 2015

The_highwayman said:

I was brought up in an assemblies of God church. I can't say they are all the same, but the one I went to fits what you have written

Elin · Mar 1, 2015

Skinski7 said:

However, the Bible's take on human "common sense" is somewhat different:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. . .the world through its wisdom
did not know God. . .but we preach Christ crucified:. . .foolishness to Gentiles, but
to those whom God has called. . .Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
(1Co 1:18, 21, 23-24)

". . .the things that come from the Spirit of God. . .are foolishness to him." (1Co 2:14)

"For the wisdom ("common sense") of this world is foolishness in God's sight." (1Co 3:19)

Is that Skinski7-ism. . .or is that found in Scripture?

According to the Bible, the world does not think so.

No more than a caterpillar (unregenerate) being transformed (metamorphoo, Ro 12:2) into a
butterfly (regenerate) is a license to return to, to eat caterpillar food.

And anyone who thinks this is what it means to be a butterfly does not understand the new nature of the butterfly.

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