Is "Limited Atonement" doctrine in Calvinism satanic heresy?

[Skinski7]

None of which addresses the following Scriptures, and is premised on a wrong understanding of "forgiveness," assuming forgiveness means the debt is not paid.

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." (2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
our iniquity laid on him, bore our sins is substitutionary,
and propitiation is atonement.

Elin,

You don't address anything. You quote a few verses which say not a single word about Penal Substitution and then you pretend that they prove Penal Substitution by imposing your own rhetoric upon the scripture. All those verses are true and NONE of them say anything about Jesus absorbing the wrath of God as a penal substitute.

That is all you are able to do. It is very well known that the doctrine is only 400 years old and it is very well known that the early church did not teach it. You just believe it because you want to and you don't want the fact to get in the way.

A sin paid for is not a sin forgiven. That alone refutes your position all by itself.

Hebrews 10:26-29 refutes the Penal Model because it teach that...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

...if we sin willfully after having been sanctified by the blood...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

...then there is no more sacrifice for sins...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

...only a fearful expectation of judgement.

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Any individual who is honest and reads that will know for certain that Penal Substitution is false. The Bible utterly contradicts the Penal Substitution model.

What we have are multitudes of people who profess Christianity who don't really believe what the Bible teaches. They believe in a fantasy religion and then use some of the Bible in their messages. They don't actually believe what Jesus taught and it is very evident on these forums too.

 

[WheresEnoch]

Elin,

You don't address anything. You quote a few verses which say not a single word about Penal Substitution and then you pretend that they prove Penal Substitution by imposing your own rhetoric upon the scripture. All those verses are true and NONE of them say anything about Jesus absorbing the wrath of God as a penal substitute.

That is all you are able to do. It is very well known that the doctrine is only 400 years old and it is very well known that the early church did not teach it. You just believe it because you want to and you don't want the fact to get in the way.

A sin paid for is not a sin forgiven. That alone refutes your position all by itself.

Hebrews 10:26-29 refutes the Penal Model because it teach that...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

...if we sin willfully after having been sanctified by the blood...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

...then there is no more sacrifice for sins...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

...only a fearful expectation of judgement.

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Any individual who is honest and reads that will know for certain that Penal Substitution is false. The Bible utterly contradicts the Penal Substitution model.

What we have are multitudes of people who profess Christianity who don't really believe what the Bible teaches. They believe in a fantasy religion and then use some of the Bible in their messages. They don't actually believe what Jesus taught and it is very evident on these forums too.

You know what is sad about this... That so many churches and preachers are creating false followers of Christ who are going to suffer much greater wrath than if they hadn't believed at all

 

[Skinski7]

It seems to me that either view is tenable if not linked to limited atonement.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for SIN.

Yet you cannot find that anywhere in the Bible. There is not a single passage or verse in the Bible that teaches that Jesus died "to pay the penalty for sin." Nowhere.

Not a single person taught that until 400 years ago when the Reformers added a penal aspect to Anselm's Satisfaction model. The Satisfaction model taught that the scope of the sacrifice of Jesus satisfied justice and thus served as a counter balance for the forgiveness of sins. The Reformers took that notion and added a literal punishment aspect to it. Now you may not want to consider that as fact but it is the reality and you can look it up and verify it.

Go and read the early church and then read the reformers. It is all very easy to do with the internet as most everything has been translated into modern English.

The only thing that will send any person to Hell is rejection of Jesus' provision for your sin, &/or His claims on your life.

That is the deception. That is the ear tickling false teaching which so many people just love to believe. They view the death of Christ as effecting a "provision" which cloaks wickedness. If they just "trust in the provision" then presto, salvation.

Yet the Bible teaches that the blood only cleanses on the condition that we WALK in the light.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Many people don't like to believe that because it means they would have to forsake their sin and actually live the crucified life. Yet that is what God expects.

The Bible teaches that there is no condemnation upon those who WALK after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Many people don't like to believe that because it means that they would have to forsake walking after the lusts of the flesh and instead live the crucified life. Yet that is what God expects.

The Bible speaks of the death of Christ being connected to us being dead to sin and living unto righteousness.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Paul wrote about not yielding our members to unrighteousness...

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Paul taught that whom we obey reveals whom we belong to.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yet there are many who profess Jesus and yet still serve sin. They are deceiving themselves.


The Bible would have to be the most rejected book on these forums because so few actually promote the real gospel message. Most people are beholden to the lies of the Reformation. Such a tragedy.

 

[Skinski7]

You know what is sad about this... That so many churches and preachers are creating false followers of Christ who are going to suffer much greater wrath than if they hadn't believed at all

Jesus warned that there would be MANY false teachers who would deceive MANY people.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Paul contended with tears every single day for three years in warning the people about the wolves whom would come.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul warned Timothy...

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

All those warnings have come true.

 

[Skinski7]

The Gospel of Jesus
[video=youtube;doVjtTSxmH4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doVjtTSxmH4[/video]

 

[elf3]

Jesus said he died for everyone not for "the elect"

What say Ye?

Now here is an argument against the argument. If Jesus died for everyone then everyone's sins are forgiven and must enter heaven upon the merit of Jesus dying for everyone. But yet Jesus says not everyone shall enter the kingdom. So if not everyone will enter the Kingdom yet Jesus died for everyone then there is a major problem within any of Jesus teaching. So did Jesus blood cleanse everyone of their sins or only those who actually have faith in Him? A universalist would say Jesus blood is for everyone. So everyone must enter the kingdom according to that belief.

So is Jesus blood redemptive for everyone or only those who actually believe and have faith in Him? If it's redemptive for everyone then what is the point of faith? Jesus died for everyone so therefore it doesn't matter if I have faith or not because His blood has redeemed me before God because He died for everyone.

If Jesus died for every one then please explain whats the point of having faith in Jesus.

 

[Sophia]

For those who question "limited atonement", what verse supports atonement being applied to unbelievers?

If an unbeliever is atoned for, yet goes to hell after Judgement,
can it be said that they were not fully atoned for? Therefore partially atoned... therefore limited atonement...

Atonement is, without question, limited to those who believe, which are the elect.
And, to some extent, skinski is right, because those elect have active working Faith....
but skinski then goes too far.

 

[Sophia]

How about discussing "full atonement"?

 

[Sophia]

Just a quick question to those who reject penal substitution:
How does the cross defeat sin, Death, and Satan without penal substitution?

As a reference, I see all 3 views of atonement (Christus Victor, Penal Substitution, and Moral Influence) as being 3 essential parts of the True view of atonement, rather than as opposing views.

One is the "goal" (Christus Victor)
One is the "means" (Penal Substitution)
And one is the "benefit" or "product" (Moral Influence).

 

[crossnote]

To say Christ died for all is fine and dandy but becomes a moot topic when many of the 'all' who Jesus died for end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

[michael56]

Yet you cannot find that anywhere in the Bible. There is not a single passage or verse in the Bible that teaches that Jesus died "to pay the penalty for sin." Nowhere.

.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being(work in progress) made holy. Heb 10:11-14

 

[Elin]

None of which addresses the following Scriptures, and is premised on a wrong understanding of "forgiveness," assuming forgiveness means the debt is not paid.

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." (2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
our iniquity laid on him, bore our sins is substitutionary,
and propitiation is atonement.

Elin,

You don't address anything.

When Scripture above doesn't address anything. . .

You're somewhat confused about who doesn't address the Scriptures.

You quote a few verses which say not a single word about Penal Substitution

Irrelevant. . .there is likewise not a single word in the Bible about the "sovereignty of God."

and then you pretend that they prove Penal Substitution by imposing your own rhetoric upon the scripture.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Falls short of addressing the Scriptures presented.

All those verses are true and NONE of them say anything about Jesus absorbing the wrath of God

Agreed.

as a penal substitute.

Read 'em again. . .

That is all you are able to do. It is very well known that the doctrine is only 400 years old and it is very well known that the early church did not teach it. You just believe it because you want to and you don't want the fact to get in the way.

The only valid proof of doctrine is Scripture, not history.

A sin paid for is not a sin forgiven

You still want to redefine the accounting term, "forgiveness."
That is not yours to do.

Your error is that forgiveness is not based on unpaid debt.

Someone always absorbs the debt, if not the debtor, then the one who loaned the money, is out that money.

But debt is always paid by someone.

That alone refutes your position all by itself.

Error never refutes truth.

Hebrews 10:26-29 refutes the Penal Model because it teach that...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

...if we sin willfully after having been sanctified by the blood...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

...then there is no more sacrifice for sins...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

...only a fearful expectation of judgement.

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yep, apostates suffer condemnation.

That is not a refutation of penal atonement.

According to the NT, apostates were never true believers (1Jn 2:19), their faith was counterfeit because.
they did not have the root (Lk 8:13) of rebirth.

Any individual who is honest and reads that will know for certain that
Penal Substitution is false. The Bible utterly contradicts the Penal Substitution model.

Lotta' hat (assertion). . .and no cowboy (addressing Scripture presented).

I'll settle for addressing just Isa 53:5-6; 2Pe 2:24 above. . .

What we have are multitudes of people who profess Christianity who don't really believe what the Bible teaches.

Agreed.

 

[MarcR]

Yet you cannot find that anywhere in the Bible. There is not a single passage or verse in the Bible that teaches that Jesus died "to pay the penalty for sin." Nowhere.

Not a single person taught that until 400 years ago when the Reformers added a penal aspect to Anselm's Satisfaction model. The Satisfaction model taught that the scope of the sacrifice of Jesus satisfied justice and thus served as a counter balance for the forgiveness of sins. The Reformers took that notion and added a literal punishment aspect to it. Now you may not want to consider that as fact but it is the reality and you can look it up and verify it.



Go and read the early church and then read the reformers. It is all very easy to do with the internet as most everything has been translated into modern English.



That is the deception. That is the ear tickling false teaching which so many people just love to believe. They view the death of Christ as effecting a "provision" which cloaks wickedness. If they just "trust in the provision" then presto, salvation.

Yet the Bible teaches that the blood only cleanses on the condition that we WALK in the light.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Many people don't like to believe that because it means they would have to forsake their sin and actually live the crucified life. Yet that is what God expects.

The Bible teaches that there is no condemnation upon those who WALK after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Many people don't like to believe that because it means that they would have to forsake walking after the lusts of the flesh and instead live the crucified life. Yet that is what God expects.

The Bible speaks of the death of Christ being connected to us being dead to sin and living unto righteousness.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Paul wrote about not yielding our members to unrighteousness...

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Paul taught that whom we obey reveals whom we belong to.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yet there are many who profess Jesus and yet still serve sin. They are deceiving themselves.


The Bible would have to be the most rejected book on these forums because so few actually promote the real gospel message. Most people are beholden to the lies of the Reformation. Such a tragedy.

NOWHERE am I suggesting that a person can be both saved and licentious! Acknowledging Jesus ownership subsumes an obligation to obey Him!

 

[VioletReigns]

Jesus said he died for everyone not for "the elect"

What say Ye?

.................

 

[Cassian]

For those who question "limited atonement", what verse supports atonement being applied to unbelievers?

If an unbeliever is atoned for, yet goes to hell after Judgement,
can it be said that they were not fully atoned for? Therefore partially atoned... therefore limited atonement...

Atonement is, without question, limited to those who believe, which are the elect.
And, to some extent, skinski is right, because those elect have active working Faith....
but skinski then goes too far.

False assumption. You are equating atonement with forgiveness.

Atonement does NOT mean forgiveness.
In modern English language, the best word to use is 'reconciliation". Christ does not save individuals from the Cross.
He is reconciling the world. He redeemed the world, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, Rom 3:24. He is reconciling the world back to God.
Christ was in this world to reverse the fall of man, the results of the fall of man. This in scripture is called salvation. Specifically from death, sin and Satan. It is a gift given to the world, thus every human being has it as an outright gift.
This is stated in Rom 5:15-18,

Let's look on how Christ accomplished this atonement. It was by His Incarnation, He became man as we are in every respect. Let's first look at the sacrifice for sin. It had to be a perfect Lamb, spotless. Christ in becoming man, in His Humanity, kept the law perfectly for us which we could never do. The real point is that even if we could, being perfect does not grant life, which I will get to in a minute. Christ went through the whole array of life we live as human beings. He even was tempted by Satan and did not succumb to sin.
It should be noted that this is a secondary work of Christ. Man has a greater problem than sin. That greater problem is our mortality. It is because we lost life, our eternal existence by the condemnation of death because of Adam's sin. Gen 3:19. Paul supports that in Rom 5:12. The condemnation of death passed to all men. It is this death that Christ will defeat, and the solution was life as stated in Rom 5:18.
How does Christ do this by His Incarnation? Because He took upon Himself our fallen mortal human nature from the Virgin Mary, He defeated death by His resurrection. He raised our mortal natures to life, immortal life and incorruptibility.
This is all stated very clearly by Paul in I Cor 15:12-22, 52-54 as well as that sin is the result of our mortal nature, I Cor 15:56.

If Christ is not risen, then the dead are not risen and even those who believe will perish. Faith does not grant life. Only the giver and Creator of life can defeat death and grant life to the world. This is why we can speak of the resurrection of the dead, that hell and heaven even exist, that there will be a new heaven and new earth.

The world and mankind is not going to be dissolved by decay, corruption, and death eternally.

This is why a limited atonement is aburd. If Christ assumed our human nature and raised that nature to life, who would He have missed. John 6:39 states He will lose none. Everything was given to Him, Col 1:20.

Is there a substitution? yes, He took upon Himself our nature so that He could defeat the death we have all been condemned to permanently, IF He does not defeat it. Is it to satisfy some wrathful notion of God? NO. Was God's justice in need of being assuaged? NO. Scripture says He love the world and gave His Son. Rom 5:6-10 states that He came out of love to save sinners, not satisfy some legal sense of justice.

And for the purpose of this life, for those that believe, there is forgiveness of sin so that we might be able to have a relationship with God as long as we remain abiding in Him. Sin is still present, Satan is seeking to devour any and all Christians, thus sin still is a problem for us and we need to use the gifts God has given us to fight off sin, our passions, and Satan to endure to the end. There is no such thing as a quick fix, namely this absurd notion that God declares someone not guilty on simply believing. It only happens in the mind of Anselm.

Christ is not saving anyone from hell either. He saved us from death and sin so that any human being could freely answer His call to come, to know Him, to join with Him now and for eternity. The consequence of that call is either acceptance, heaven, or rejection, hell. Both are possibilities for any human at any time in his life, and one can go from one to the other freely.

 

[Sophia]

If a person is reconciled to God, how can they be condemned?
I never talked about forgiveness.

"Christ is not saving anyone from hell either" - Cassian
Conversation over.

 

[posthuman]

if i give everyone a free ticket to ride, and not everyone uses it,

would it be fair to say that 'a limited number of tickets' are redeemed?

 

[Cassian]

If a person is reconciled to God, how can they be condemned?
I never talked about forgiveness.

"Christ is not saving anyone from hell either" - Cassian
Conversation over.

do you know the meaning of reconciled?

so, show where Christ saved anyone from hell?

 

[Cassian]

if i give everyone a free ticket to ride, and not everyone uses it,

would it be fair to say that 'a limited number of tickets' are redeemed?

do you know what the word "redeem" means? From what were we redeemed?

 

[Kaycie]

Jesus died to give everyone the opportunity to become the elect...

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"