ATONEMENT

The_highwayman · Mar 9, 2015

Christians, all Christians should understand the explanations of scripture. There is ONLY ONE Gospel. However for those who need scripture to support Christ's atonement, His Incarnation and resurrection, here they are from the beginning. Gen 3:19 is the condemnation of death to all men. Paul supports this in Rom 5:18, vs 15 it is a gift, a gift to all men. Rom 5:6-10 Christ because of His love, mercy and grace, died for sinners. (all men again) unless you can posit that some men are not sinners.

Paul repeats the equation in I Cor 15:12-22. He reinforces that when He says Christ will raise all the dead to immortality, and incorruptibility, I Cor 15:52-54. Just an add on, I Cor 15:56 says that the sting of death is sin. In other words we sin easily because of our mortal nature.

Christ atonement extends to the world as well. When Adam was condemned to death, the created order also became subject to decay, corruption and death. Thus Christ needed to save the world as well. II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, Rom 3:24 all state that Christ was reconciling the world to God. This is supported by John 6:39, Acts 24:15, Rev 20:13 where it states all men will be raised.
In short, Christ died for all men, Heb 2:9. He did this by becoming Incarnate, took on our mortal human nature. He atoned for the sin of the world, I John 2:2.
One can even shorten it more, if one actually understands what Christ actually accomplished for us. He became the sacrifice for sin, all sin , and granted life to all men and the world. Salvation, came to all men. Titus 2:11, He gives Light to all men, John 1:9

The Incarnation has been a hallmark of Christianity from the very beginning. It survived three false teachings in the 4th and 5th centuries.

If you need the history behind the false teachings of Original Sin and the Satisfaction theory they can be checked out as well. But the satisfaction theory assumes the false teaching of Original Sin first mentioned by Augustine. He imported some false teachings from his earlier influences of the Manicheans and Gnostics. He was also a student of Neo-Platonism. He incorporated some of these false ideas into Christianity but they were never part of the Church's belief. Even the RCC did not accept Anselm's theory completely. Thomas Aquinas softened it, as did Francis of Assissi It was not until the Reformation that the two leading reformers, Luther and Calvin came along, both Augustinians, and built these false teachings into their respective theories of salvation. Calvin added the pen/sub to the Satisfaction theory. Within Protestantism these theories are so prevalent an pervasive that they are assumed to be what scripture has always meant. Nothing could be further from the Truth.

Those are scriptural facts and historical facts.

you have been reported....

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Cassian said:

do you really think that God' revelation to man, exists in a vacuum of some kind?
I could give you a lot of scriptural arguments for every false teaching that has ever been devised by man. That does not make it correct. You really think that Jehovah Witnesses did not use scripture for their view, or the Christian Scientist?
All you have presented in some more similar biblical facts that were constructed from scripture by men such as Augustine, Anselm and Calvin. Could you explain which scripture is correct, Calvinism or Armenianism since they are categorically opposite of each other. Does scripture support more than ONE Gospel? At this point you connot even refute Mormonism since Smith used scripture as well.

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

The_highwayman said:

typical of false teachers. Satan does very well in dividing and getting rid of the opposition. Why should I not report you as well. You have presented no scripture that supports the idea that Christ, declared a person who believes "not guilty". You could not even explain just how that could take place respective of the rest of scripture.

Skinski7 · Mar 9, 2015

michael56 said:

You cannot conceive of such a thing correct?

The original teachings of Jesus Christ have become so twisted that anyone proclaiming a message of "loving our of a pure heart" is deemed a heresy by many. Yet that is exactly what Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount.

Blessed be the pure in heart for they shall see God. Ye have been made clean through my word, abide in me and I will abide in you so you can do all things. That was the teaching of Jesus.

It is what Peter taught...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Being made clean through the word or being purified through obedience to the truth is an alien doctrine today. Satan has so perverted and reinvented Christianity that black is now white and up is now down. As Paul warned, a time would come when evil is spoken of the truth by religious people.

The biggest opponents of Jesus are not the atheists, it is the religious professing Christians. They plead his name and yet deny his teaching.

Sophia · Mar 9, 2015

What does the word "kenosis" mean to you? In what way does it relate to atonement in your view?

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

Sophia said:

He became man as we are. He humbled Himself even to the death of the Cross. It is the ONLY way man could have been saved.

Sophia · Mar 10, 2015

Cassian said:

Upon some light research, I believe that we agree in Christ.
We seem to disagree on:
certain traditions,
theosis being the result of Salvation rather than the means,
and that those who have died in unbelief can still be saved through prayer.

I can look past those things for now, and will leave this debate upon an encouraging note,
of our agreement in Christ, in His Person and Work.

michael56 · Mar 10, 2015

Skinski7 said:

I know, that the biggest sinners and hypocrites according to Christ were the religious, who could not practise what they preached. They, believed they could attain Heaven by their own effort to be good enough. However you try to word it, that is your belief also. The Pharisees could say the right things, on the outside, they could appear to be righteous, but the inside was a very different matter
The power of the Gospel is in grace.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:11-18

Note again, those already under the old covenant had their sins forgiven by offering sacrifices for them. These sacrifices I repeat, were made for the sins of people God had accepted and were under the covenant. But those under the new covenant(ALREADY UNDER IT) DO NOT HAVE MAKE SACRIFICES FOR THEIR SINS, FOR THEIR SINS AND LAWLESS DEEDS ARE REMEMBERED NO MORE.
This cannot just refer to past sins, for it is in reference to sacrifices not needing to be made for a person, under the covenant, not before they enter it!!!

Bibically speaking, those who demanded self effort to achiever an almost perfect standard to attain Heaven were the worst of sinners in Christ's view. Human nature has not changed in 2,000 years, and for those who demand of others what they do not, nor cannot attain to in their own lives, there is coming a day they must answer for it.

You won't understand this, I know. But the power of sin is the law.

The law comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed, and the penalty attached for breaking it. Is the law itself the power of sin? If it is, the power of sin remains for the Christian today, for the law God desires you to keep remains intact. Or is the penalty attached to the law the true power of sin? If that is the case, Jesus died at Calvary to pay the price of your sin, and to break the power of sin in your life. Hence

For sin shall not be your master, for you are3 not under law but under grace Rom6:14

But those who so desire a righteousness of their own before God will never understand the Gospel of grace, they remain blinded to it, as did the Pharisees of Jesus day.

You quote the literal letter, that is not enough, the Pharisees of Jesus day could do that, you have to understand the message

Skinski7 · Mar 10, 2015

Michael,

Again you simply rephrase your error and ignore the obvious elephant in the living room.

Jesus taught that it is the pure in heart whom will see God, not the wicked in heart. Your basic tenet is that "perfect forever" is PURELY FORENSIC and thus "remembering sins no more" is inclusive of ONGOING WICKEDNESS that is why you defend the blood of Christ as cleansing "future sins in advance."

In other words the blood of Jesus gives you a cloak to keep sinning and not fall under condemnation which is the OPPOSITE of what the Bible teaches. You go out of your way to quote portion of scripture and then use RHETORIC to imply that the Bible teaches this sin cloak you believe in. Yet the Bible emphatically states...

"If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment." Heb 10:26-27

You just refuse to believe the Bible is all.

The Bible also says...

"...he was purged from his old sins." 2Pet 1:9

You don't believe that either.

The Bible also says...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

ie. Sins confessed + sins forsaken THEN forgiveness granted.

You don't believe that.

Jesus referred to Nineveh as an example of repentance (Mat 12:41) and if we look in Jonah we see...

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jesus also stated,

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

The prodigal son forsook his rebellion to his father and left the pig pen and came clean in repentance. He confessed and forsook his sins and received mercy.

You don't teach that. You instead teach that Jesus somehow removed any requirements to be righteous so that you can sin with impunity because you can no longer be condemned for doing evil. You do this by twisting "faith" into being a mere "trust in a POSITIONAL CLOAK" for sin as opposed to faith "working by love whereby we walk wholeheartedly yielded to the grace of God which directs us the right way."

The power of sin is in the law simply because it is through KNOWLEDGE of right and wrong that one is able to REBEL against God and hence be justly condemned for sin unto death is ALWAYS a choice.

There is no such thing as "be righteous before God on our own" and you are a liar to imply that I teach that. We have to YIELD to the divine influence of God upon our hearts, which is what grace is. Grace is the power of God to walk in genuine righteousness by a faith that works by love.

Instead of arguing in favour of rightoeusness, you argue in favour of sinning without condemnation. In other words you are contending that "we can sin and not surely die."

You are clearly acting as Satan's mouthpiece in this thread.

Skinski7 · Mar 10, 2015

All the people who promote Penal Substitution generally believe that they can sin and not surely die. Penal Substitution is the perfect doctrine to hammer that lie into the brains of the deceived. It is ingenuous.

Skinski7 · Mar 10, 2015

Sophia said:

Hey Sophia,

If an individual who "trusts in the finished work of Jesus" becomes frustrated with their mate and in a moment of anger murders them with a kitchen knife do they fall under condemnation?

gb9 · Mar 10, 2015

hi skinski, welcome back. I do not agree with all you say, but you are dedicated and committed to a holy lifestyle. you and I have had our rounds, but I have come to respect you. so, what do you do with: he made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him??

Cassian · Mar 10, 2015

Sophia said:

Seems you really don't understand Orthodoxy either. We differ on the fundalmentals of salvation of who Christ is and what he accomplished. Those are not traditions.

michael56 · Mar 10, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:11-18

I see you are not responding to the core of the new covenant I keep posting. I am sure therefore you don't expect me to respond to anything you quote in scripture. Your statements seem to be be coming more extreme all the time.

As for your remark I believe(or my beliefs) the blood of Jesus gives a cloak to go on sinning. I am afraid that shows how little you truly understand of the new covenant. The new covenant DOES NOT hinge on one core fact but two.

The law God requires a person to keep has been transferred from tablets of stone(an external law) to tablets of human hearts(an internal law if you like. What does that mean? It means, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal etc are on your heart, you do not want to do those things. You have been born again of the Holy Spirit. Jesus will only be your Saviour from sin if you have been born again of the Spirit, for he will be no ones Saviour from sin unless they in their heart want to obey His Father.

Now if you in your heart want to obey, you cannot at the same time wilfully, without conscience disobey, such a thing is not possible.
Therefore, you have a righteousness before God of faith in Christ, not obedience to the law(which is in reality where your righteousness is)
You don't have to ask the Holy Spirit to write the law on your mind and place it on your heart at the point of conversion, you don't have to believe he will do it, he will do it But satan wants to rob you of where the victory over sin truly lies. It lies in knowing you are not under law but under grace, therefore it lies in knowing Jesus paid the price of all your sin at Calvary. Tragically satan has people willing to help him who go to church each week.
For satan knows where the power lies. He cannot convince someone who asked Christ into their life as Lord and Saviour Jesus does not exist, but he can blind them to grace, he can in effect make them believe they have to try and be good enough under the law.
You do not know or understand the new covenant skinsky. I can only repeat. The Old Covenant would be far less harsh than your idea of the new covenant, and it would be easier to attain to Heaven under it.

The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it. For you the power of sin remains, for those under grace it does not. Does that mean perfect obedience? No! For people who in their hearts accept grace, do not make such statements, they know in their heart they must be humble and honest, for that is where the law has been placed, and they accept the way of victory over sin

You woodenly recite scripture, but do not understand the heart of the message, as the Pharisees of Jesus day didn't. There was a reason they were blinded of course

michael56 · Mar 10, 2015

Skinski7 said:

The law God requires you to obey remains intact on your heart and mind. Therefore if you are right, the power of sin remains for the Christian. Christ died at Calvary to pay the penalty of sin and to remove the power of sin for the born again believer. Your Gospel message is weak Skinsky, for it leaves the power of sin in place.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. Rom 7:5

The only reason I reply to your posts is in case any sincere of heart person may be inclined to accept what you write. For biblically speaking, you cannot practise what you demand of others, it is not possible. You only have to read the NT to know that. For I repeat, you have left the power of sin firmly in place with your belief. Nothing makes satan more happy

Skinski7 · Mar 10, 2015

gb9 said:

It is not what "we do with" but what do those of words of Paul actually teach.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Many people take that verse out of its context and isolate it. They then use rhetoric and force a religious dogma onto the text and imply it is speaking of a POSITIONAL legal exchange. The Calvinists twist it into a proof text supporting Penal Substitution whilst those who uphold Satisfaction/Moral Government twist it into supporting their view. Yet what is the context of what Paul has written?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

1. Being IN Christ = New Creation (2Cor 5:17)
2. Being reconciled to God is THROUGH Jesus Christ.
3. God was in Christ "reconciling" the world through Him - Connected to forgiveness of sins.
4. We are given the MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION and we are urged to BE RECONCILED TO GOD (ie. it is not automatic).
5. Jesus was made sin (figure of speech because sin is not a substance but a moral action both in mind and body). Jesus was made to be a sin offering on our behalf, a sin offering who was SPOTLESS (ie. could not possibly have been literally "made" into sin itself). Heb 9:14
6. We are MADE the righteousness of God IN Jesus Christ.
7. Grace can be received in vain if there is no "working together."

Some definitions...

Reconciled - katallassō
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.

Reconciliation - katallagē
From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment), that is, restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

The purpose of the Ministry of Reconciliation is for the sinner to be restored to divine favour through a change.

The doctrine of Penal Substitution would have us believe that the change is POSITIONAL in a context that Jesus was punished as the sinners substitute and thus absorbed the wrath of God, thus the wrath no longer exists. Penal Substitution is also married to the Calvinist doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" whereby the "obedience of Jesus" is credited to the sinner. Thus it looks like this...

The above graphic is the Penal Substitution doctrine in a nutshell. Reconciliation is purely POSITIONAL and has NOTHING to do with any MANIFEST change of the sinner. In other words it is GOD WHO CHANGES in the way He VIEWS the sinner. God pours out His wrath on the substitute and is thus satisfied and then God PRETENDS that the sinner is righteous like Jesus.

Now let us look back at the text IN CONTEXT of what the Bible actually teaches...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

compare to...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no condemnation for who?

For those who are IN Christ Jesus who WALK after the Spirit. Does that sound positional?

The law of the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ is what sets us free from the law of sin and death. The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ is clearly a MANIFEST STATE of existence, not some positional legal transaction.

What did Jesus teach?

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
...
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Now look at Romans 8 verse 3...

"what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Jesus Christ condemned sin IN the flesh. The law could not do that. The law could only ever point to an outward code of conduct but could NEVER condemn sin IN the flesh. Only a human being can condemn sin IN the flesh via walking according to the Spirit of life. That is what Jesus did. Why did Jesus do that? Well, we have the answer...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN us whom walk after the Spirit.

Thus we see that there is no condemnation upon those whom walk after the Spirit and that the righteousness of the law is to be fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit. Let us look again at 2Cor 5:21-6:1...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Those two verses are a parallel to Rom 8:3-4. They teach the same thing.

Let us look at a definition...

Workers Together - sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.

Paul teaches that without "working together" or SYNERGY that the grace of God is received in vain. In other words if there is no SYNERGY or COOPERATION between an individual and God then God's grace does not produce "made the righteousness of God in Him." The righteousness of the law is only fulfilled in those whom WALK after the Spirit.

Calvinism denies SYNERGISM and instead teaches MONERGISM and in doing so they destroy the entire Gospel message. The Bible teaches synergism throughout and is very specifically teaches synergism in 2Cor 6:1.

Let us look at grace.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all.
2. The grace of God that brings salvation TEACHES us the right way to go.

Hearing and DOING (as Jesus taught) is the means by which we BUILD our house upon the rock.

Why did Jesus die?

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus died to redeem us from ALL INIQUITY and MAKE US PURE.

In other words...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

and...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The free gift of eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ is the dynamic of WORKING TOGETHER which we all have the opportunity to partake in whereby we may find reconciliation with God. That is why Paul wrote...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Pharisees sought eternal life through the mere outward observance of rules and regulations. They had no faith, they had no wholehearted yielding to the grace of God. Thus they might have had an outer form of righteousness but were still internally wicked.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The standard God requires is HEART PURITY.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The doctrine of Penal Substitution is one of the most dangerous things an individual can believe because it utterly destroys any understanding of the "working together with God" out of which one's heart is made pure. Penal Substitution is satanic to the core and a doctrine of demons due to this reason. There are millions upon millions of people who have bought into the Penal Substitution lie who actually think they are saved yet their hearts remain wicked because they have never truly repented and thus have never wholeheartedly yielded to the grace of God and been made new creations IN Christ.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED. THE BIBLE DOES NOT LIE.

Skinski7 · Mar 10, 2015

michael56 said:

No He didn't and you cannot provide a single Bible verse or passage which states that Jesus paid the penalty for sin. The Reformers made that up 400 years ago. I am a heretic to you because you are not in favour of Biblical Christianity, you are in favour of Reformed religious dogma which twists the Bible.

Jesus died for these reasons...

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The bottom line, the elephant in your living room is that you cannot deal with HEART PURITY in salvation. That is why you must defend future wickedness forgiven in advance.

You can expound all the rhetoric you like but the one issue you will never deal with is heart purity in salvation. It is in being made pure that we are no longer under the law of sin and death because we no longer rebel against God. THe salvation of God deals with the root issue of sin and that is iniquity in the heart.

michael56 · Mar 10, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:11-18

As you continue to ignore the core terms of the new covenant, despite me continuously putting them up I will continually ignore anything you quote Skinsky.

Just to repeat. Sin is the transgression of the law. The born again Christian is not under a law of righteousness before God. Therefore they cannot be made unrighteousness before God concerning their imperfections concerning those laws, that is not possible. As failure to observe the law is sin, Jesus died for all a converts sin at Calvary. That is unarguable I am afraid, which is why you cannot address the issue!!

You will see in the above, those under the old covenant had to offer sacrifices for sin. Those under the new covenant do not have to, for their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. I repeat, This is all unarguable, therefore you have to ignore it all.

Only those who do accept the truth will see much victory over sin on their lives.
For others, many sit in church crushed each week, because no one told them the truth. Others become somewhat hardnosed and put on an act, they cannot live up to beneath the skin, much like the Pharisees of Jesus day.

Grace is not an excuse to sin, but rather empowerment to live an ever more holy life. You do not understand the core of the new covenant. If you lay the wrong foundations, your house must collapse, it is inevitable.

How can you understand scripture, if you fail to understand the core foundation on which the new covenant is stands?
What is the evidence of your pure heart? Demanding of others what you cannot attain to in your own life?

michael56 · Mar 10, 2015

Skinski7 said:

No He didn't and you cannot provide a single Bible verse or passage which states that Jesus paid the penalty for sin. The Reformers made that up 400 years ago. I am a heretic to you because you are not in favour of Biblical Christianity, you are in favour of Reformed religious dogma which twists the Bible.

Jesus died for these reasons...

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The bottom line, the elephant in your living room is that you cannot deal with HEART PURITY in salvation. That is why you must defend future wickedness forgiven in advance.

You can expound all the rhetoric you like but the one issue you will never deal with is heart purity in salvation. It is in being made pure that we are no longer under the law of sin and death because we no longer rebel against God. THe salvation of God deals with the root issue of sin and that is iniquity in the heart.

I repeat, under your belief the power of sin remains firmly in place, therefore how can you speak of victory over sin and heart purity? It isn't possible Skinsky.

Skinski7 · Mar 10, 2015

michael56 said:

It is possible. We have victory over sin through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. That is the promise that sets us free from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. It is a manifest present state we enter into whereby we walk according to the Spirit the bondage of sin having been broken.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We are set free from sin through dying with Christ (in repentance) whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all, thus ending the service of sin permanently.

We are made free from sin through our obedience to the truth.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The consequences of sin still remain yet we do not suffer the consequences because we stop serving sin. It is like a heroin addict will suffer the consequences of heroin so long as they keep taking it. For them to be set free of the consequences of heroin they have to stop taking it.

It is the same with sin. The wages of sin is death, it will always be death. The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ, that is ABIDING in the Spirit of His life. That is why faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9) and obedience to the truth through the spirit purifies the soul (1Pet 1:21).

We are made clean THROUGH the word (1Joh 8:3) when we yield to that word wholeheartedly. That is the dynamic that produces an inward transformation. We are saved by grace through faith.

The power of sin is through the law simply because one cannot turn away from God without knowledge. Rebellion requires something to rebel against and the law (either the conscience or direct commandment) gives sin its opportunity to kill.

These things are not hard to understand.

ATONEMENT

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