ATONEMENT

[Skinski7]

You see Michael, as I have said before, the one elephant in your living room is that everything you say is absolutely devoid of any concept pertaining to heart purity in salvation by which we no longer serve sin.

If we are not longer serving sin then there is no need to argue in favour of a doctrine where grace is a cloak for ongoing wickedness, ie. future sins forgiven in advance. You have been completely hoodwinked by the teachings of theologians.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

atonement was purchased on the cross. the price was steep. it was our saviors blood sweat and tears. and ultimately his life.

anything short is a pseudo atonement which is not from God.

the power over death and sin is humility, anything less has no power.

 

[michael56]

It is possible. We have victory over sin through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. That is the promise that sets us free from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. It is a manifest present state we enter into whereby we walk according to the Spirit the bondage of sin having been broken.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We are set free from sin through dying with Christ (in repentance) whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all, thus ending the service of sin permanently.

We are made free from sin through our obedience to the truth.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The consequences of sin still remain yet we do not suffer the consequences because we stop serving sin. It is like a heroin addict will suffer the consequences of heroin so long as they keep taking it. For them to be set free of the consequences of heroin they have to stop taking it.

It is the same with sin. The wages of sin is death, it will always be death. The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ, that is ABIDING in the Spirit of His life. That is why faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9) and obedience to the truth through the spirit purifies the soul (1Pet 1:21).

We are made clean THROUGH the word (1Joh 8:3) when we yield to that word wholeheartedly. That is the dynamic that produces an inward transformation. We are saved by grace through faith.

The power of sin is through the law simply because one cannot turn away from God without knowledge. Rebellion requires something to rebel against and the law (either the conscience or direct commandment) gives sin its opportunity to kill.

These things are not hard to understand.

You wrote, and I quote:

The power of sin is in the law simply because it is through KNOWLEDGE of right and wrong that one is able to REBEL against God and hence be justly condemned for sin unto death is ALWAYS a choice.


As you know, under the new covenant the law God requires you to keep remains intact, it is written on your mind and placed on your heart. Therefore, according to your belief, the power of sin remains for the Christian. Under my belief it does not.

Now who will better obey, the one with whom the power of sin remains, or the one with whom the power of sin has been removed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I repeat, under your belief the power of sin remains firmly in place, therefore how can you speak of victory over sin and heart purity? It isn't possible Skinsky.

he has his pet sins he does not do, so he thinks his is ok with God. in the meantime, the real sin in his life is overpowering him, and will not let him see the truth of God.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is what Paul taught about repentance...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Look the word "clear" up in that last verse. It means PURE. A genuine repentance leaves ones heart in a pure state regarding their sin, in the context of having come clean about the sin and having forsaken it permanently. It is on that basis of a genuine repentance that once can then receive mercy from God and have those sins purged from the conscience. It is only then we can stand before God. If that does not happen we remain condemned. There is no forgiveness for future sins in advance, it is impossible.

The Bible clearly teaches throughout that sin has to be forsaken BEFORE mercy is granted. You don't believe that and claim that mercy is granted in advance. It does not matter how many passages or verses you twist to try and support your view, the Bible does not contradict itself.

 

[Skinski7]

he has his pet sins he does not do, so he thinks his is ok with God. in the meantime, the real sin in his life is overpowering him, and will not let him see the truth of God.

Of course you have to believe that because you don't believe in purity of heart in salvation.

Even though Peter wrote this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In your view the new birth still leaves you in a wicked state. That is why it is necessary for you to believe in Penal Substitution which gives you the perception of a cloak for ongoing wickedness.

People like you don't believe the Bible.

 

[michael56]

You see Michael, as I have said before, the one elephant in your living room is that everything you say is absolutely devoid of any concept pertaining to heart purity in salvation by which we no longer serve sin.

If we are not longer serving sin then there is no need to argue in favour of a doctrine where grace is a cloak for ongoing wickedness, ie. future sins forgiven in advance. You have been completely hoodwinked by the teachings of theologians.

Your refusal to address the core points of the new covenant repeatedly placed before you is testimony to the fact you do not understand it. Paul knew where the power of sin lay-and why:

[SUP] [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:5&6

In the above, Paul is speaking of the result of living under the law. He says when we live under it sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law. Let me repeat again, if Jesus did not die for all your sin at Calvary, you MUST live under a law of righteousness before God, nothing else is possible.
You therefore(however you try and evade the point) do indeed live under a law of righteousness before God, Paul explains amply what this means

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

All roads lead to Rome so to speak. Under your belief the power of sin remains firmly in place

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course you have to believe that because you don't believe in purity of heart in salvation.

Even though Peter wrote this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In your view the new birth still leaves you in a wicked state. That is why it is necessary for you to believe in Penal Substitution which gives you the perception of a cloak for ongoing wickedness.

People like you don't believe the Bible.

of course I don't

A purity of heart salvation would mean one has fulfilled the law completely. I have failed to do this, so the ability for me to be saved by my own purity is long past any possibility.

I learn to be like Christ by doing what he did. Not trying to do it on my own.

You can have no power over sin, because you think you are righteous, You have failed to repent. and are on a journey which will lead you where you do not desire to go.

WHile the sinners like David (murder and adultry) Abraham (adultery and many other sins) Paul (murder and phariseeism) and others like me will see God and spend eternity with him.

 

[michael56]

The Bible clearly teaches throughout that sin has to be forsaken BEFORE mercy is granted. You don't believe that and claim that mercy is granted in advance. It does not matter how many passages or verses you twist to try and support your view, the Bible does not contradict itself.

So a person has to perfectly obey the law/cease sin before mercy will be granted. This would mean a person must perfectly uphold the law before the Holy Spirit enters their life, for the definition of a Christian is one in whom the Holy Spirit resides(Rom 8:9)

This is crazy teaching, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, not by ourselves before He enters our life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So a person has to perfectly obey the law/cease sin before mercy will be granted. This would mean a person must perfectly uphold the law before the Holy Spirit enters their life, for the definition of a Christian is one in whom the Holy Spirit resides(Rom 8:9)

This is crazy teaching, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, not by ourselves before He enters our life.

it would not work anyway, Even if a person COULD uphold the law perfectly before he came to Christ, he would still be doomed to hell for eternity for his past sin.

even so, it is not possible anyway, Love the lord your god with all your heart soul and might, And love your neighbor (anyone you come in cantect with) as yourself.

if we think we obey even these two laws 100 % every day, we do not understand who and what God is

 

[Skinski7]

of course I don't [believe in purity of heart in salvation]

A purity of heart salvation would mean one has fulfilled the law completely. I have failed to do this, so the ability for me to be saved by my own purity is long past any possibility.

We are not "saved by our own purity." That is a complete misunderstanding.

Salvation is being made pure. Heart purity is the result, not the means.

The means is saved by "grace THROUGH faith," ie. "working together with God" or "hearing and doing."

When we wholeheartedly yield ourselves to the grace of God (having forsaken our rebellion through repentance) then the grace of God quickens us back to life and we find pardon.

You confuse the "result" of what I teach with a "means" and the reason you do that is because you percieve "not of works" as meaning "do nothing except trust." Thus any notion of "having to obey" is a works salvation in your mind that violates scripture. When Paul speaks of "not of works" he is speaking of "works done apart from faith" not "obedience from the heart." It is obedience from the heart that sets us free from sin (Rom 6:17).

I learn to be like Christ by doing what he did. Not trying to do it on my own.

Again another fallacy.

I have NEVER taught that "we do it on our own." That is a false position that people like you always bring up. We do NOTHING on our own, rather we COOPERATE with God. God speaks (the Word) and we HEAR and DO and the result is the house built upon the rock. That is what Jesus taught. That is what Paul taught. We receive grace for obedience. Faith is the working principle by which we make the grace of God effectual to the transformation of our hearts. If we refuse to yield then no transformation can possibly take place.

You can have no power over sin, because you think you are righteous, You have failed to repent. and are on a journey which will lead you where you do not desire to go.

We have the power over sin through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. We abide wholeheartedly in the Spirit of His life and we walk in victory over the lust of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life.

This is why Peter wrote...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

People like you don't believe that the Christian escapes the corruption that is in the world through lust. You don't believe the Bible.

WHile the sinners like David (murder and adultry) Abraham (adultery and many other sins) Paul (murder and phariseeism) and others like me will see God and spend eternity with him.

Yet none of them were forgiven IN their sins. They had to forsake their sin.

Paul was not murdering people after he became a Christian.

Under your doctrine Christians can be molesting children and murdering people and still enter the kingdom. The Bible refutes that and warns us not to be deceived.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who DO wickedness will not enter the kingdom. It is the pure in heart who will see God, not those whom are wicked in heart.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are not "saved by our own purity." That is a complete misunderstanding.

Salvation is being made pure. Heart purity is the result, not the means.

The means is saved by "grace THROUGH faith," ie. "working together with God" or "hearing and doing."

When we wholeheartedly yield ourselves to the grace of God (having forsaken our rebellion through repentance) then the grace of God quickens us back to life and we find pardon.

You confuse the "result" of what I teach with a "means" and the reason you do that is because you percieve "not of works" as meaning "do nothing except trust." Thus any notion of "having to obey" is a works salvation in your mind that violates scripture. When Paul speaks of "not of works" he is speaking of "works done apart from faith" not "obedience from the heart." It is obedience from the heart that sets us free from sin (Rom 6:17).



Again another fallacy.

I have NEVER taught that "we do it on our own." That is a false position that people like you always bring up. We do NOTHING on our own, rather we COOPERATE with God. God speaks (the Word) and we HEAR and DO and the result is the house built upon the rock. That is what Jesus taught. That is what Paul taught. We receive grace for obedience. Faith is the working principle by which we make the grace of God effectual to the transformation of our hearts. If we refuse to yield then no transformation can possibly take place.



We have the power over sin through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. We abide wholeheartedly in the Spirit of His life and we walk in victory over the lust of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life.

This is why Peter wrote...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

People like you don't believe that the Christian escapes the corruption that is in the world through lust. You don't believe the Bible.



Yet none of them were forgiven IN their sins. They had to forsake their sin.

Paul was not murdering people after he became a Christian.

Under your doctrine Christians can be molesting children and murdering people and still enter the kingdom. The Bible refutes that and warns us not to be deceived.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who DO wickedness will not enter the kingdom. It is the pure in heart who will see God, not those whom are wicked in heart.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Your heart will not be pure until you get to heaven, with a glorfied body free of all sin. which in your case, your heart may never be pure.

As paul said, If Christ is in me, although my body (heart) is dead because of sin, My spirit (soul) is alive because of righteousness.

It is not my righteousness which makes me pure, my righteousness are as filthy rags, It is God in me which makes me pure.

 

[Skinski7]

So a person has to perfectly obey the law/cease sin before mercy will be granted.

Where did I say "perfectly obey the law"?

You just cannot help adding to my words can you? You just have to twist what I say in order to address me don't you.

I said...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

That is what you are contending against, the Bible itself. You don't believe the Bible.

Sin has to be forsaken. We have to forsake all known wickedness BEFORE forgiveness is granted. That is what the Bible teaches. Even James taught it...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But because that does not agree with your "religion" you have to ignore it. You might as well get a big black marker and cross those verses out of your Bible because you reject them.

This would mean a person must perfectly uphold the law before the Holy Spirit enters their life, for the definition of a Christian is one in whom the Holy Spirit resides(Rom 8:9)

No it doesn't. It means we have to FORSAKE KNOWN WICKEDNESS and YIELD OUR HEARTS TO GOD. That is all. We come clean in regards to our rebellion and stop rebelling. We are then empowered and led by the Spirit as to what we are to do. Our hearts are clean and we walk by a faith that works by love. It is very simple.

The only people who are "in the Spirit" are those who have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires in repentance. We who have done this have been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust via obedience to the truth through the Spirit, we have been made pure. That is what the Bible teaches.

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

In other words we HEAR and DO. That is all God requires. A simple working faith on our part. He does the rest. He leads and we follow. So simple.

This is crazy teaching, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, not by ourselves before He enters our life.

Sanctified means set apart unto holiness. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. We respond to that conviction with a genuine repentance and are converted. THEN and ONLY THEN are we indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is all around us. It is manifested through the light of conscience, the Bible, true saints etc. Yet the indwelling is only for those who have been purged of iniquity through repentance. For without repentance we cannot receive the implanted word within. We cannot serve two masters and the Spirit of God cannot abide in those whom are in rebellion.

 

[Skinski7]

Your heart will not be pure until you get to heaven, with a glorfied body free of all sin. which in your case, your heart may never be pure.

You don't believe the Bible and every post you make proves it.

The Bible says...

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

How on earth could Peter call people to "love one another with a PURE HEART" if heart purity is not possible? I reckon you will NEVER answer that question.

Not only that but the Bible says...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

There is no magic transformation of our hearts when we physically die or at the resurrection. We either purify our hearts by faith now or it never happens.

As paul said, If Christ is in me, although my body (heart) is dead because of sin, My spirit (soul) is alive because of righteousness.

You quote Rom 8:10 and yet pull it from its context which is...

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Paul is contrasting the serving of sin (walking according to the flesh) with serving righteousness (walking according to the Spirit).

The body is indeed dead for those in Christ for we have crucified the flesh with the passions and desires, the body of sin has been destroyed (Rom 6:6), and we now abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ and serve righteousness. We are led of the Spirit.

It is not my righteousness which makes me pure, my righteousness are as filthy rags, It is God in me which makes me pure.

Again, as I stated earlier, we are made pure through OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH (genuine faith) and genuine righteousness is a RESULT of that. The RESULT is not the CAUSE.

You then take Isa 64:6 and rip it from its context. The filthy rags is the PERCEIVED righteousness of those in rebellion to God, not the saints. Isaiah is speaking as a representative of wicked Israel and cries out that their righteousness is as filthy rags before God.

The righteousness of the saints is described as FINE LINEN not filthy menstrual cloth. What blasphemy your words are.

Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

[michael56]

Where did I say "perfectly obey the law"?

.

As I keep having to repeat, as you are unable it appears to address the scriptures directly relating to the core of the new covenant I will not address your scriptures either. I can only repeat, as you do not understand the core of the new covenant the Christian is under how can you expect to correctly understand other scripture you quote?

If a person must cease all known sin before receiving mercy(grace) then they must perfectly uphold the law in regard to known sin to receive grace, it is the same thing as you should know.

If only you understood the core of the message, but you constantly contradict it:

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker Gal2:15-18

I will repeat again, you preach a covenant that leaves the power of sin firmly in place, but then demand great victory over sin. It is not credible, as your replies make evident

 

[michael56]

Where did I say "perfectly obey the law"?

You just cannot help adding to my words can you? You just have to twist what I say in order to address me don't you.

I said...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

That is what you are contending against, the Bible itself. You don't believe the Bible.

Sin has to be forsaken. We have to forsake all known wickedness BEFORE forgiveness is granted. That is what the Bible teaches. Even James taught it...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But because that does not agree with your "religion" you have to ignore it. You might as well get a big black marker and cross those verses out of your Bible because you reject them.




No it doesn't. It means we have to FORSAKE KNOWN WICKEDNESS and YIELD OUR HEARTS TO GOD. That is all. We come clean in regards to our rebellion and stop rebelling. We are then empowered and led by the Spirit as to what we are to do. Our hearts are clean and we walk by a faith that works by love. It is very simple.

The only people who are "in the Spirit" are those who have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires in repentance. We who have done this have been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust via obedience to the truth through the Spirit, we have been made pure. That is what the Bible teaches.

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

In other words we HEAR and DO. That is all God requires. A simple working faith on our part. He does the rest. He leads and we follow. So simple.



Sanctified means set apart unto holiness. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. We respond to that conviction with a genuine repentance and are converted. THEN and ONLY THEN are we indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is all around us. It is manifested through the light of conscience, the Bible, true saints etc. Yet the indwelling is only for those who have been purged of iniquity through repentance. For without repentance we cannot receive the implanted word within. We cannot serve two masters and the Spirit of God cannot abide in those whom are in rebellion.

While we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly Rom 5:6

 

[Skinski7]

I will not address your scriptures either.

Of course you won't because you cannot. People like you only present a hand of subjective rhetoric and conjecture with a smattering of out of context proof texts. That is all you have. You just repeat your fallacious bullet points.

If a person must cease all known sin before receiving mercy(grace)

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Mercy and Grace are not the same thing. The grace of God appears to all men...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Mercy is granted depending on how people respond to that grace.

Sure mercy is gracious but it is not the same as the "grace which brings salvation."

Only in your mind is grace and mercy identical because you think grace is a CLOAK for wickedness because you believe you can sin and not surely die. Salvation in your mind is not salvation FROM sin (Mat 1:21), rather it is salvation IN sin. Thus you think heart purity has nothing to do with it, just the penalty removed because someone else paid it. Foolishness.

then they must perfectly uphold the law in regard to known sin to receive grace, it is the same thing as you should know.

Your logic is awful.

Grace is freely given, it is what we do with it that makes the difference.

You cannot remove this "perfectly uphold the law" from your rhetoric because that is all you have to fall back on. It is the one strawman you will keep bringing up again and again. Honestly it just make you look silly.

Here is what the Bible says about the law...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love fulfills the law. Right there in black and white quoted directly from the Bible.

Paul also wrote...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The righteousness that comes by faith that works by love.

That is how we are to fulfill the law. It is so simple.

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker Gal2:15-18

That is right, the works of the law do not justify anyone. We are justified by a faith that works by love which fulfills the law, not by outwardly keeping rules and regulations.

I will repeat again, you preach a covenant that leaves the power of sin firmly in place, but then demand great victory over sin. It is not credible, as your replies make evident

The power of sin is only in place for those who refuse to yield wholeheartedly to God. Are you one of those people?

What sins do you refuse to forsake that make you so vehemently defend ongoing wickedness in salvation? I cannot think of any other reason why you contend so earnestly in favour of wickedness.

 

[Skinski7]

While we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly Rom 5:6

That is right. Yet Jesus did not die to give you a license to keep sinning but rather to present you with a means by which you can be reconciled to God through His blood, should you approach God in genuine repentance and faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't believe the Bible and every post you make proves it.

The Bible says...

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

How on earth could Peter call people to "love one another with a PURE HEART" if heart purity is not possible? I reckon you will NEVER answer that question.

Not only that but the Bible says...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

There is no magic transformation of our hearts when we physically die or at the resurrection. We either purify our hearts by faith now or it never happens.




You quote Rom 8:10 and yet pull it from its context which is...

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Paul is contrasting the serving of sin (walking according to the flesh) with serving righteousness (walking according to the Spirit).

The body is indeed dead for those in Christ for we have crucified the flesh with the passions and desires, the body of sin has been destroyed (Rom 6:6), and we now abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ and serve righteousness. We are led of the Spirit.



Again, as I stated earlier, we are made pure through OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH (genuine faith) and genuine righteousness is a RESULT of that. The RESULT is not the CAUSE.

You then take Isa 64:6 and rip it from its context. The filthy rags is the PERCEIVED righteousness of those in rebellion to God, not the saints. Isaiah is speaking as a representative of wicked Israel and cries out that their righteousness is as filthy rags before God.

The righteousness of the saints is described as FINE LINEN not filthy menstrual cloth. What blasphemy your words are.

Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

No, I do not believe your self righteous, self puffed up view of the bible.

Huge difference.

Your a pharisee, and like them, to blind to see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is right. Yet Jesus did not die to give you a license to keep sinning but rather to present you with a means by which you can be reconciled to God through His blood, should you approach God in genuine repentance and faith.

then why do you not? And instead of puffing yourself up and tearing everyone down (who you do not even know) and accept what Jesus did for you>