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K
I did not say it is by our works, as what I said is by in the faith trusting in love what the Lord said and obeying to do it to receive that remission. Nowhere in the bible does it cancel out repentance, baptism/born again, confession, and forgiveness as needed for salvation. I know some use just believe, but the Lord said those who believe in Him are those who come to Him, hear what He says, then does it; and then it calls hearers only and not doers of the word deceived.
I have noticed that there is a basic premise that both sides seem to agree on.
Both seem to agree that salvation is by Grace through Faith in Jesus. And most seem to agree that that faith produces good works/fruit though the Spirit.
The issue seems to be that if one person thinks there is a particular fruit and another person disagrees then they accuse of works based salvation. That really is not fair or logical.
As both believe that faith produces some kind of Fruit it is pointless and fruitless to keep accusing people of works based salvation. and then not listen when they say you have misunderstood them.
being that all seem to agree that we are saved by faith lets actually examine the fruit what is the fruit according to the bible.
Both seem to agree that salvation is by Grace through Faith in Jesus. And most seem to agree that that faith produces good works/fruit though the Spirit.
The issue seems to be that if one person thinks there is a particular fruit and another person disagrees then they accuse of works based salvation. That really is not fair or logical.
As both believe that faith produces some kind of Fruit it is pointless and fruitless to keep accusing people of works based salvation. and then not listen when they say you have misunderstood them.
being that all seem to agree that we are saved by faith lets actually examine the fruit what is the fruit according to the bible.
You are completely correct. For those not familiar with Greek tenses: In Greek the present tense has no necessary connection with present time. The Present tense signals durative action in progress within the time frame of the context.
For example: a present tense statement within the context of a future event signals durative or habitual action in future time.
i.e. When paper money stops being used you use another form of payment.
For example: a present tense statement within the context of a future event signals durative or habitual action in future time.
i.e. When paper money stops being used you use another form of payment.
It is indeed present tense but what about this:
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Paul in Romans 7 is captive to the law of sin, Yet in Romans 8 he is free in Christ form the law of sin. It would seem that there has been a change from the 7 description to the one in 8.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Paul in Romans 7 is captive to the law of sin, Yet in Romans 8 he is free in Christ form the law of sin. It would seem that there has been a change from the 7 description to the one in 8.
In fact Paul does clue us into what he is about to say:
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
notice the description:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Clearly Romans 7:5 refers to the Romans 7 man, notice that it says:
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh... past tense, the description is in present tense but it is a description of a past way of life for Paul but Probably a present reality for his readers thus the present tense. using himself as a disarmament of prejudice against the message.
Now notice verse 6:
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
There are more but its clear that the description in verse 6 relates to Romans 8.
Notice:
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law... Present tense.
So Romans 7 is past tense for the one who experiences the Romans 8 condition in present tense.
blessings.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
notice the description:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Clearly Romans 7:5 refers to the Romans 7 man, notice that it says:
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh... past tense, the description is in present tense but it is a description of a past way of life for Paul but Probably a present reality for his readers thus the present tense. using himself as a disarmament of prejudice against the message.
Now notice verse 6:
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
There are more but its clear that the description in verse 6 relates to Romans 8.
Notice:
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law... Present tense.
So Romans 7 is past tense for the one who experiences the Romans 8 condition in present tense.
blessings.
Galatians 2:8 For the same God who worked through Peter as the apostle to the Jews also worked through me as the apostle to the Gentiles.
1: For the same God who worked through Peter
2: Paul stated : also worked through me as the apostle to the Gentiles.
3: Is it possible to work for God kingdom without Him ???
Scripture in the OT and NT have the same answer
Shalom
1: For the same God who worked through Peter
2: Paul stated : also worked through me as the apostle to the Gentiles.
3: Is it possible to work for God kingdom without Him ???
Scripture in the OT and NT have the same answer
Shalom
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You are correct. I never intended to say that the present tense NEVER refers to present time only that connection with present time is NOT NECESSARILY implied.
In ALL CASES the present tense is used to signify action in progress or habitual action within the time frame of the context (whether present, past, or future).
In ALL CASES the present tense is used to signify action in progress or habitual action within the time frame of the context (whether present, past, or future).
Amen! By faith Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). His sacrifice did not make his righteous, but through it he showed his faith (James 2:18). Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering proved something about his faith (it was genuine) that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.
As for these many people in Matthew 7:22 who were expecting to enter the Kingdom based upon their so called many wonderful works, they had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in THEIR works to save them and not in CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was really disobedience. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous! They said, "Lord, Lord," but did not do His will (vs. 21) "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40) Lord, Lord, didn't WE is the wrong answer. The correct answer would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless perfect life, die for my sins, were buried and rose again from the dead on the third day. I trust exclusively in YOU for salvation and NOT in my works.
As for these many people in Matthew 7:22 who were expecting to enter the Kingdom based upon their so called many wonderful works, they had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in THEIR works to save them and not in CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was really disobedience. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous! They said, "Lord, Lord," but did not do His will (vs. 21) "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40) Lord, Lord, didn't WE is the wrong answer. The correct answer would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless perfect life, die for my sins, were buried and rose again from the dead on the third day. I trust exclusively in YOU for salvation and NOT in my works.
I once had a conversation with a man on a different Christian forum who claims that for the last 3 YEARS IN A ROW he was living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life and expected to receive eternal life based on continuing to do so. He claimed that we obtain salvation through sinless perfect obedience and he said, "if we still sin at all then we don't yet know the Lord." This man was obviously deceived. He was ALL about works righteousness.
Some people really do believe they are living sinless or almost sinless lives (like the man that I mentioned above) and in his case, I don't believe that he was deliberately fibbing, but was simply self deceived.
Now in regards to "keep" His commandments. 1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:4 - He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. The word, "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless perfect obedience to ALL that Jesus has commanded 100% of the time. If it did, then NONE of us qualify.
Some people really do believe they are living sinless or almost sinless lives (like the man that I mentioned above) and in his case, I don't believe that he was deliberately fibbing, but was simply self deceived.
Now in regards to "keep" His commandments. 1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:4 - He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. The word, "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless perfect obedience to ALL that Jesus has commanded 100% of the time. If it did, then NONE of us qualify.
I was speaking solely concerning the new covenant. It might be interesting to start a debate on the difference between the two covenants in respect of how the individual is convicted of sin if you like, and how this affects them when the law comes to them.
It might be better for me just to speak from personal experience. I was taken to church from as far back as I can remember. I listened to sermons, considered myself a Christian, said my prayers each night, but it was only when I responded to an altar call that I inwardly had heartfelt conviction of my sin. To me it was like the light being switched on.
You said you were convicted of your sin before you sought a solution by finding Christ. Are you saying you were convicted of your sin for a period of time before you became a Christian? I might have misunderstood.
There is an interesting difference. Some believe you can be convicted of your sin, you can ask Christ into your life as Lord and Saviour of it, but because you in effect strive to attain Heaven by being good enough-which must be under the law you cannot be saved, for you are not following the truth of the Gospel message. You in effect only had a saviour from sin at the point of conversion. I myself do not take that view, for me, if you have heartfelt conviction of your sin, this must be because the Holy Spirit has put the law God requires you to keep on your heart and mind, therefore, you have been born again, although you are not living fuly in the truth of the covenant. However, that may be better for a thread of its own also
It might be better for me just to speak from personal experience. I was taken to church from as far back as I can remember. I listened to sermons, considered myself a Christian, said my prayers each night, but it was only when I responded to an altar call that I inwardly had heartfelt conviction of my sin. To me it was like the light being switched on.
You said you were convicted of your sin before you sought a solution by finding Christ. Are you saying you were convicted of your sin for a period of time before you became a Christian? I might have misunderstood.
There is an interesting difference. Some believe you can be convicted of your sin, you can ask Christ into your life as Lord and Saviour of it, but because you in effect strive to attain Heaven by being good enough-which must be under the law you cannot be saved, for you are not following the truth of the Gospel message. You in effect only had a saviour from sin at the point of conversion. I myself do not take that view, for me, if you have heartfelt conviction of your sin, this must be because the Holy Spirit has put the law God requires you to keep on your heart and mind, therefore, you have been born again, although you are not living fuly in the truth of the covenant. However, that may be better for a thread of its own also
Hey mate, the difference is....one believes you can LOSE the ETERNAL salvation that has been given in Christ and that it must be RE-earned and or MAINTAINED by works......
The others believe that once a man has been dipped into the blood of Christ that they are saved, sealed, justified, and sanctified (positionally) and ETERNALLY which cannot be lost, maintained and or regained because it cannot be lost....
THAT is the difference......!
The others believe that once a man has been dipped into the blood of Christ that they are saved, sealed, justified, and sanctified (positionally) and ETERNALLY which cannot be lost, maintained and or regained because it cannot be lost....
THAT is the difference......!
E
No I did not miss it.
did you miss the point where he says their is no more condemnation to all of us in christ? If we can fall back to condemnation again, then we are still under condemnation.
remember, God is outside of time, a 1000 years is but a blink of an eye to him, stop thinking in human terms, you have people being saved, unsaved, saved unsaved saved unsaved over an over in a lifetime, which to God is not even 1/10000 of a second.
Paul is telling us in romans 7 the situation we all go through as children of God.
he is telling is in romans 8, not to fret, we are not under condemnation but grace, and telling us how to over come the flesh. by seeking the things of the spirit.
romans 8 gives all Gods children hope. and shows them how to not fall into sin, not by following some law, or rules and regulation, but looking outward in love (the spirit) and not self (carnal)
did you miss the point where he says their is no more condemnation to all of us in christ? If we can fall back to condemnation again, then we are still under condemnation.
remember, God is outside of time, a 1000 years is but a blink of an eye to him, stop thinking in human terms, you have people being saved, unsaved, saved unsaved saved unsaved over an over in a lifetime, which to God is not even 1/10000 of a second.
Paul is telling us in romans 7 the situation we all go through as children of God.
he is telling is in romans 8, not to fret, we are not under condemnation but grace, and telling us how to over come the flesh. by seeking the things of the spirit.
romans 8 gives all Gods children hope. and shows them how to not fall into sin, not by following some law, or rules and regulation, but looking outward in love (the spirit) and not self (carnal)
E
Or Islam or Paganism, or Catholicism.
It is satans greates lie, to teach us we must earn the right to heaven by doing good deeds, whatever they may be,
It rejects the law as a condemning force, and brings mankind to decide what his own law is, watering down the law of God. so he can somehow be good enough to earn the right to heaven.
it rejects the cross.
It is satans greates lie, to teach us we must earn the right to heaven by doing good deeds, whatever they may be,
It rejects the law as a condemning force, and brings mankind to decide what his own law is, watering down the law of God. so he can somehow be good enough to earn the right to heaven.
it rejects the cross.
K
That is a false premise on the teaching of Matthew 7:21-23.
It was not of their works and believing in their works to earn salvation that kept them from receiving eternal life. That is interjected into that passage when it says no such thing. What kept them from receiving eternal life and the Lord saying to them He never knew them was because they continued to live a sinful lifestyle as well. They did not truly repent and give up their sinful ways, hince why they Lord said you who practice lawlessness. They did not obey the Lord to change from their former self, and thought they could continue to walk in the flesh and serve the Lord also.