Christains never use the real power of their argument

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
Because the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. Otherwise everything exists. Theres no proof leprechauns and werewolves don't exist.. But we can't go around assuming that they do! That's the problem when you take that stance.

I'm not a atheist because I have proof god doesn't exist. I'm an atheist because you haven't proved he does.

But that doesnt change the fact that you go against your own logic, you claim that you dont believe in God because you lack proof, but you also have no proof to back up your claim that there is no God, so you arent even using your own logic, you are making a claim with no proof :p I mean by these man made standards, an agnostic is far more logical than an atheist :p
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
Awwww you earn one point! You got me on that one.Was still kind of rude to say tho.I've been a part of atheist forums but they would not let me even ask a question. I didnt preach God just asked a question.Entire room ripped me to pieces. Only one person apologized and said they had had bad experiences with Christians.
Yeah most Christians just do drive by posts and never reply to anything, the ones that stay just threaten us with hell. But that doesn't justify people being rude to you.
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
But that doesnt change the fact that you go against your own logic, you claim that you dont believe in God because you lack proof, but you also have no proof to back up your claim that there is no God, so you arent even using your own logic, you are making a claim with no proof :p I mean by these man made standards, an agnostic is far more logical than an atheist :p
Did you not read my post at all? What was difficult to understand about it?
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
Then a stock example might be James the Just. This may seem rather trivial, but it's a pretty simple one:

- Supposedly not only a disciple of Jesus but also his brother, so I'd say that makes him a claimed eyewitness to Christ's existence.

- Discussed by numerous Biblical authors in independent texts (namely Epistles and Acts) other than the Gospels - in fact, they were written before the Gospels were. Also mentioned by name in the Antiquities, and identified as the brother of Jesus. This was recording a non-Biblical event, so evidently the source for this account is not the Bible itself, even though it supports the identity and role of the individual in question.

- The James Ossuary has his name on it. It identifies him as the brother of Jesus. Might be a forgery, but probably not.



Given that there are multiple independent historical sources outside of the Gospel narratives that identify James as the brother of Jesus (and therefore an eyewitness to Christ's existence), I'd say that the hypothesis with the best fit for the available evidence is that he he existed, and that the claims of his relation to Jesus are true.
Thanks for the example. That's something I can take away and look into.
 
Mar 20, 2015
768
13
0
I'm not a atheist because I have proof god doesn't exist. I'm an atheist because you haven't proved he does.
Someone can only guide and help another person, YOU have to humble yourself and search with the right heart condition, it helps to abandon things in your life that would perhaps displease God, YOUR relationship with the Almighty Creator God is down to YOU ultimately. I'm sure many here will help answer the best they can do for you.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
Did they /really/ threaten you, or did they say "the Lord says"?

There is a massive difference between warning you and down right threatening you. God does tell us that anyone who refuses to repent and follow Christ will be here on the day of His wrath, whether or not you think its friendly doesnt change that. Id tell you that fact with love and concern. If you take that as a threat, then I would actually wonder if you are only using that in order to justify a negative outlook over people who disagree with you.

If they tell you that only through repenting can you be saved from hell, then they did it out of love. If they tell you your a horrible person and your going to hell for it then they are not Christian.
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
Did they /really/ threaten you, or did they say "the Lord says"?

There is a massive difference between warning you and down right threatening you. God does tell us that anyone who refuses to repent and follow Christ will be here on the day of His wrath, whether or not you think its friendly doesnt change that. Id tell you that fact with love and concern. If you take that as a threat, then I would actually wonder if you are only using that in order to justify a negative outlook over people who disagree with you.

If they tell you that only through repenting can you be saved from hell, then they did it out of love. If they tell you your a horrible person and your going to hell for it then they are not Christian.
No one sticks around long enough to reveal their motives. All I see is threats lol.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
Did you not read my post at all? What was difficult to understand about it?
You just said you are an atheist, you dont believe in God because you lack proof. That means you believe there is no God with no proof. Your point is you believe in logic, that what you believe has to be proven, but you claim statements as fact even though you cant prove it at all. Therefore you are not using the logic you claim you believe in but changing logic to fit your own beliefs, which is a reason why logic is meaningless to me entirely.

And your response was a belittling comment with no substance, a very standard argument from secular people, which is another reason I feel they have no argument :p
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
You just said you are an atheist, you dont believe in God because you lack proof. That means you believe there is no God with no proof. Your point is you believe in logic, that what you believe has to be proven, but you claim statements as fact even though you cant prove it at all. Therefore you are not using the logic you claim you believe in but changing logic to fit your own beliefs, which is a reason why logic is meaningless to me entirely.

And your response was a belittling comment with no substance, a very standard argument from secular people, which is another reason I feel they have no argument :p
I really have no idea what your talking about.

"I can fly".. "No you can't.." "Well theres no proof that I can't and you believe I can't, with no proof!!!! So why don't you apply your own logic to the fact that I can!!"


That's pretty much what your doing.
 
Last edited:
Mar 20, 2015
768
13
0
numerous possible reasons for how we got here. But all have equal amount of evidence for them.
But are those theories reasonable, logical and can they be supported by the scientific method?. The Bible tells us that God created two human beings, one man and one woman and with the capabilities of reprodution but only after their kind, therefore human beings can only arise from human beings, and the scienctific method supports this, it can observe this it can test this it can reproduce this and it can prove this as an undeniable fact. Evolution claims that human and apes both share a common ancestor and that they evolved from this ape-like creature but there is no evidence that this ape-like creature actually existed. The Bible is in harmony with these scientific findings but evolution is not. This is just one of many scenarios that could be applied here with regard to life on earth. Cats arise from cats, dogs from dogs etc etc the list goes on, none of it can really be supported by evolutionary natural processes, no evolutionary scientists have been able to reproduce evolutionary random chance unguided processes to show how life came about by evolution in a scientific laboratory, no matter how state-of-the-art these labs are. What does the evidence really support from our natural perspective on earth?, sometimes if not most of the time we have to look at the bigger picture.
 
Last edited:

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
58
28
You could be right there. I'm not sure what god is defined as. To me he is the equivalent of a magic man in the sky poofing things into existence.. And that's not be being offensive, but that's honestly how I envision him based on what people have said about him. Plus Ive not met too many people who can agree on what god actually is.
And you never will. Put 20 Christians in a room and they'll not be able to reach an accord on any one thing in scripture. Forums such as this are proof of that.
And that isn't exclusive to Christians. It is the same with Pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, and all others who first think something outside themselves cares about who they are, what they do, where they're at, and where they're going.

The God institutionalized religion creates is born of narcissism. Think about it. "My" god loves me best. My god doesn't like you because you don't see "him" my way. Etc....

The Buddhists, who are atheist, have a saying: If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him.

Because Buddha was a man, interestingly enough he was a morbidly obese Indian (India) man who gained insight while sitting under a Bodhi tree. Was his nirvana natural? Or did he happen to chew something that helped him with that? One doesn't know. But regardless, what that saying means is, if you can identify God with your own eyes you're delusional.

But that is exactly what organized religions purport to do. And that is why the teachings of the Prince of Peace, Yeshua/Jesus, have become fractured in the properties of sectarian ideologies. Each group of people with the eyes to see, see God their way. And that builds a fence round so that they see others as wrong.

Jesus wasn't a Christian. Nor is God.

Know what? That comes as news to some who may find this post in a Google search.

"WHAT?" They will say! "How dare you!" They will charge. And yet, it's true.
Christians were so named first in Antioch, what is today's modern of south-central Turkey. And this long after Jesus departed this Earth.
And so how did sects evolve out of that word?

Men.

All teachings of Christ were disposed to men's thinking how to arrive at an understanding of them and so they achieved an eternal namesake for themselves. Martin Luther, Lutheran. John Calvin, a sadistic attorney turned theologian, Calvinism. Etc...

But what do the scriptures say? All scripture is breathed out by God, God's breath.
What else? In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

Sounds like writing on the wall/page doesn't it?

Not really. Jesus spoke his message to those who would hear it. Born into the Jewish tradition, teacher in the temple reading from the sacred scrolls, Jesus was the words on those pages made flesh.
Jesus was asked by his Disciples, master why is everything you say in parables? (Matthew 13:10-11)
Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
13.Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In the beginning was the word, God . Sound, resonance, vibration, harmonics, atomic power, creative and divine.

Did you know that sound waves can knock down a building?

God isn't found in books, nor in sects, nor in traditions made by men. Scripture teaches us that. God cannot be contained in structures built by human hands, so how could he ever be solely found as described in a book compiled by men? Forty different authors believed to have been inspired to write God's breath to the parchment before them. And yet, there are missing books. Those other men decreed were not worthy of being taken that seriously.

And then we have it. The Canon. Arrived at by a vote! The closed Canon! Declared to be, after that vote, the last and final time God will speak his words, give his breath, to humanity.

Really?

I think atheists exist because they think in terms of what man has constructed God to be. And in reviewing that composite the atheist says, not possible! That isn't holy. That's not superior or a higher power or a supreme being. It's unbelievable.

And so it is.

Which came first? God? Or mans conception of what is invisible and yet energetically creative?

Maybe consider doing this. Review what you believe about all that exists and your role in the life you're living.
You say we can't prove to you God exists and yet you can't prove to us he doesn't. Yours is a subjective bias identifying what first must be God and then rejecting that as impossible.

But what if God is everywhere you look? The atom that science theorizes is there, is mostly empty space, moving constantly and to a rhythm and that is altered by vibrations, sounds, and that manifests everything we believe to be solid matter that in truth is an illusion. Because those moving atoms are vibrating together to form for our mind, through our visual cortex, solid form that isn't really real.

If that chair you're sitting in really isn't a solid chair on the invisible atomic level of vibration, how can you imagine that there is no proof of God that.....you can see?

Remember: Parable. Metaphor. Allegory. Simile.
If you wanted to create a map to an infinite replenishing treasure would you write it out as a simple easy to read diagram? Or would you make it a mystery to be unlocked by those meant to find their way to it?

Parable. God is a spirit. In the beginning was the word.
And the word was with God.

And the word was God. What is a word? Say something , a word, aloud. Do you hear that? That rhythm, that vocal quality that mixes your accent, your breath, with the visual the word conjures to your mind as you speak it aloud.

Someone across the room can speak in a different language so as to vocalize that same picture in their native word. Does that object the word describes change because the language describing it aloud does?

Keeping that in mind, do you want to see God?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,427
2,506
113
Lets start with this.
Historical Existence of Jesus

For years, Richard Dawkins (and others) have tried to claim Jesus never existed.

This has always been their FIRST and PRIMARY argument against Christianity.

When confronted by a REAL scholar from Oxford,
bringing up REAL historical evidence,
Dawkins IMMEDIATELY has to retract his position.

After holding his position for YEARS,
Dawkins is forced to retract his position IMMEDIATELY by a real scholar

Seems that Dawkins' bravado doesn't hold up long in the face of actual facts.


(John Lennox is a professor of mathematics at Oxford.)

[video=youtube;Ant5HS01tBQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ant5HS01tBQ[/video]


CONTEXT

If you think this video clip is taking Dawkins out of context... go see for yourself.
The whole lengthy conversation is publicly available... for all to see.

From Now On
From now on, when atheists claim Jesus never existed, I just say,
"Well, Richard Dawkins disagrees. He says Jesus DID exist.
 
Last edited:
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
And you never will. Put 20 Christians in a room and they'll not be able to reach an accord on any one thing in scripture. Forums such as this are proof of that.
And that isn't exclusive to Christians. It is the same with Pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, and all others who first think something outside themselves cares about who they are, what they do, where they're at, and where they're going.

The God institutionalized religion creates is born of narcissism. Think about it. "My" god loves me best. My god doesn't like you because you don't see "him" my way. Etc....

The Buddhists, who are atheist, have a saying: If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him.

Because Buddha was a man, interestingly enough he was a morbidly obese Indian (India) man who gained insight while sitting under a Bodhi tree. Was his nirvana natural? Or did he happen to chew something that helped him with that? One doesn't know. But regardless, what that saying means is, if you can identify God with your own eyes you're delusional.

But that is exactly what organized religions purport to do. And that is why the teachings of the Prince of Peace, Yeshua/Jesus, have become fractured in the properties of sectarian ideologies. Each group of people with the eyes to see, see God their way. And that builds a fence round so that they see others as wrong.

Jesus wasn't a Christian. Nor is God.

Know what? That comes as news to some who may find this post in a Google search.

"WHAT?" They will say! "How dare you!" They will charge. And yet, it's true.
Christians were so named first in Antioch, what is today's modern of south-central Turkey. And this long after Jesus departed this Earth.
And so how did sects evolve out of that word?

Men.

All teachings of Christ were disposed to men's thinking how to arrive at an understanding of them and so they achieved an eternal namesake for themselves. Martin Luther, Lutheran. John Calvin, a sadistic attorney turned theologian, Calvinism. Etc...

But what do the scriptures say? All scripture is breathed out by God, God's breath.
What else? In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

Sounds like writing on the wall/page doesn't it?

Not really. Jesus spoke his message to those who would hear it. Born into the Jewish tradition, teacher in the temple reading from the sacred scrolls, Jesus was the words on those pages made flesh.
Jesus was asked by his Disciples, master why is everything you say in parables? (Matthew 13:10-11)
Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
13.Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In the beginning was the word, God . Sound, resonance, vibration, harmonics, atomic power, creative and divine.

Did you know that sound waves can knock down a building?

God isn't found in books, nor in sects, nor in traditions made by men. Scripture teaches us that. God cannot be contained in structures built by human hands, so how could he ever be solely found as described in a book compiled by men? Forty different authors believed to have been inspired to write God's breath to the parchment before them. And yet, there are missing books. Those other men decreed were not worthy of being taken that seriously.

And then we have it. The Canon. Arrived at by a vote! The closed Canon! Declared to be, after that vote, the last and final time God will speak his words, give his breath, to humanity.

Really?

I think atheists exist because they think in terms of what man has constructed God to be. And in reviewing that composite the atheist says, not possible! That isn't holy. That's not superior or a higher power or a supreme being. It's unbelievable.

And so it is.

Which came first? God? Or mans conception of what is invisible and yet energetically creative?

Maybe consider doing this. Review what you believe about all that exists and your role in the life you're living.
You say we can't prove to you God exists and yet you can't prove to us he doesn't. Yours is a subjective bias identifying what first must be God and then rejecting that as impossible.

But what if God is everywhere you look? The atom that science theorizes is there, is mostly empty space, moving constantly and to a rhythm and that is altered by vibrations, sounds, and that manifests everything we believe to be solid matter that in truth is an illusion. Because those moving atoms are vibrating together to form for our mind, through our visual cortex, solid form that isn't really real.

If that chair you're sitting in really isn't a solid chair on the invisible atomic level of vibration, how can you imagine that there is no proof of God that.....you can see?

Remember: Parable. Metaphor. Allegory. Simile.
If you wanted to create a map to an infinite replenishing treasure would you write it out as a simple easy to read diagram? Or would you make it a mystery to be unlocked by those meant to find their way to it?

Parable. God is a spirit. In the beginning was the word.
And the word was with God.

And the word was God. What is a word? Say something , a word, aloud. Do you hear that? That rhythm, that vocal quality that mixes your accent, your breath, with the visual the word conjures to your mind as you speak it aloud.

Someone across the room can speak in a different language so as to vocalize that same picture in their native word. Does that object the word describes change because the language describing it aloud does?

Keeping that in mind, do you want to see God?
That was a fantastic post. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I will definitely take stock on what I imagine a god to be.

I can't see that my stance will change, but I will definitely reflect on everything you've said.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
I see Christians being made fun of on Atheist talk shows when they call in . Looking like fools or idiots and being slain with simple opening questions. It is embarrassing and prevents young people from even considering Christian beliefs.
Well, yeah! whattaya expect when a lamb steps into a wolf's den? A mature christian would know better than go to a place full of reprobates.

Matthew 7:6 (KJV) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,427
2,506
113
AngelFrog,

You bring up many interesting points, all worthy of serious discussion.

That doesn't mean I agree with them, but those are all real issues that concern people,
so they should be openly and politely discussed.
( I also appreciate your conclusion, that regardless of issues within Christianity, Collin should still be concerned with seeking God.)


I want to make one point here about disagreements among Christians.

Within orthodoxy, various denominations actually DO agree on fundamental issues.

These are often referred to as "essentials of the faith".

People can of course, put any label on themselves they wish,
and then claim to believe anything they wish... but that doesn't make it honest or rational.
I can "call" myself a proctologist, and then say I believe in putting hampsters up our bums.
:)
Giving myself the "label" of proctologist doesn't make it so...
nor does it give my beliefs any validity.

Yes, it's ok for us to relax and laugh a bit... even when discussing serious things.
Maybe it will keep us from killing each other, lol.

So... although anyone can give themselves a label of "christian",
it doesn't necessarily make it so.
And within Orthodoxy, denominations DO agree on "essentials of the faith".

: )
 
Last edited:

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
58
28
That was a fantastic post. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I will definitely take stock on what I imagine a god to be.

I can't see that my stance will change, but I will definitely reflect on everything you've said.
TreeHugSmiley.gif (Hug) Just keep an open mind. I use to be an atheist.
 
Last edited:
S

Siberian_Khatru

Guest
Within orthodoxy, various denominations actually DO agree on fundamental issues.
These are often referred to as "essentials of the faith".
"All things are simple when you reduce them to fundamentals...It’s the untangling, the reducing that’s difficult. That's why people don't like to bother. I don't think they'd like the results either."
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
765
113
39
Australia
Maybe its more like we don't use power too with our argument?

1 Cor 2:4
and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
In response to your false assertion that Christianity is as untrue as paganism, I deconstructed the logical fallacy you were asserting and then explained why the Christian worldview is true and paganism is false in the simplest of terms.

Beyond that I pointed you to a qualified resource so that you could learn more why that is. But, you appear to have chosen not to pursue it (which raises a red flag so now would be a good time to explain that coming to CC to troll Christians is a bannable behavior that's against the forum rules).

Furthermore, because the Christian worldview is true, evidences exist across every sphere of human knowledge. Which, of course, means that due to the sheer magnitude of evidences available it's not feasible to list them all in a blog post.

But, of course, you asked for some not all and I will be happy to discuss some of them with you. However, we do have to find a starting point.

Now which area are you most familiar with? Starting in your area of expertise is desirable because you should, at least, be acquainted with the content matter we'll be discussing.

Is it an area in science such as astronomy/astrophysics, biology/microbiology, another branch of physics, etc... or an area in the social sciences such as history and archeology... or perhaps sociology and psychology are your thing.

Tell me, what area are you most versed in and I will start there.


Ok so i ask for you for evidence... You link me to a book that explains why someone else believes in god?
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
2
0
Beyond that I pointed you to a qualified resource so that you could learn more why that is. But, you appear to have chosen not to pursue it (which raises a red flag so now would be a good time to explain that coming to CC to troll Christians is a bannable behavior that's against the forum rules).
Oh so because I'm not doing what you would like me to, I'm suddenly a troll and you mention bannable behaviour. You think pretty highly of yourself.

This is the final interaction I will have with you.