Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[4enlightment]

No, read Luke 18:9-14. Does the OSAS Proponent fit the description of the Pharisee or the Tax Collector?

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

So what did the one that has admitted that is a sinner has done? The other is in denial.

 

[4enlightment]

The High priest represent the Father, but now we has only one Father, the rest were shadows of the ones that are in Heaven. But we doesn't have to tell God what we has done, because he has already known, even before Jeremiah was in the womb.

 

[Jason0047]

You can slice it and dice it anyway you want....does not change why and how God uses chastisement as directed at a SAVED CHILD OF GOD.......SO...According to you wilful sin cause one to lose salvation....which totally contradicts your use of chastisement in the following statement made by you......

The chastisement is only to wake the true believer up<---if they are in sin, according to you they are lost and not in a state of belief......so how can it wake up a true believer if they are LOST in UNBELIEF....cannot you see your logic is flawed......like totally flawed......!

Well, again, you misunderstood what I had written. I said an unbeliever is not going to be chastised. But how does one know they are a true believer who is being chastised versus say the unbeliever or false believer is not? For they could be going thru almost the exact same physical challenges that effect all types of human beings go thru. The point I am trying to make is that the false believer (who thinks they can sin and still be saved) is not going to be deterred from having a physical challenge in their life because all people in this life go thru challenges.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The strawman here is that those who believe in eternal security are careless about sin.
Nonsense.

That is the only argument for this Arminianistic doctrine, and it is based on the false premise that eternal security somehow excuses sin.

its ok for them to excuse sin as a "mistake" I guess it makes them more holy, then we who understand, sin just makes us wretched men and women. and if not for Christ, we would suffer our righteous judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Didn't say we were not responsible for unintentional sin; I am saying it is the type of sin that does not lead unto spiritual death for the believer.

there is no such thing, God says we have eternal life. if we could die spiritually again God lied. and it is not eternal life, but conditional life.

You teach conditional life, and in doing so, excuse your sin.

 

[psalm6819]

But how can you believe in a 180 turn if you just denied in confessing one's sins as being necessary to forgive sin? Are you not cleansed of unrighteousness and forgiven sin by confessing it by 1 John 1:9?

My heart and mind are renewed by the Holy Spirit, by the Bible, changing my desires. I want to please God, not myself, I want to love others, not myself, i want to be like Jesus, not myself.

I thank God daily for Jesus and what He did for me. You seem to think that I'm out at the bars every night picking up strange men, taking drugs, robbing banks, breaking legs, spending all the money on sports gambling and believe that something like that is okay.

Maybe you do not realize the depth of my gratitude to Him, that He is faithful when I am not and He will never forsake me, I would not spit on that love, I would not break His heart or dishonoring Him.

He knows my every flaw yet loves me still even if I forget to confess a sin because He knows my heart.

 

[mailmandan]

what if you forget to confess one sin? and die in your sleep? what if before the truck hits you you say damn; then you are in a coma?
Is God's mercy and forgiveness predicated on YOU asking? do you have to confess it outloud verbally?

I'm not trying to be a jerk I just don't understand why this keeping track of sins is beneficial, it seems it would be a heavy load
seems like it would be more productive to concentrate on Jesus (thanking Him for paying the price for my unbelief and disobeiance) and strive to do that which is right in His sight than marking all the checkboxes of "sins I comitted today"

Good points. Is John focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain cleansed? Or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? We would continue to confess our sins then. Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." IN CONTRAST TO - if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If every time a believer commits a sin are they not fully cleansed until they confess that specific sin? Are they lost again until they confess that specific sin? What happens if they forget one?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, that doesn't make any sense. People do evil all the time and live perfectly good lives. Believers are persecuted to the point of death. Chastisement is not really that big of a deterrent for believers who think they can get away with sin. For unbelievers suffer the same challenges in this life. So no. I am not buying it.

that does not make any sense.

According to the standard God placed in effect. There are non righteous, no not one. You can not live up to the law. You need to stop trying to compair yourself to other people. and compair yourself to Gods standard.

According to Gods standard. you fail to live up. thus your evil in Gods eyes.

Then again, Like I stated earlier. You refuse to be the tax collector. and would rather be the pharisee. You just proved my point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank him for what? So that a believer can just go back to living the way they used to? If that is the case, then why doesn't God just force salvation on everyone then? For surely with an OSAS type belief, he is forcing his salvation on people after they accept Him. For once a person has done that prayer, they are forever saved and cannot turn back. They are forever saved, whether they like it or not.

Impossible. God saved a believer when they were his enemy, At their worse. No one could go back to being the same or worse than they were before they were saved. Not to mention. The HS chastening a believer would not allow it.

Not to mention. John said those born of God can not sin

Again, your pride refuses to allow you to see this. Thats your downfall.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I mean, think about it. Who is God going to honor more? The guy who just ignores their sin and believes on Jesus, or the guy who honestly wanted to do what was right with the Lord? Would not God be immoral for allowing his believers to get away with evil (i.e. a sin and still be saved doctrine)?

so why do you ignore your sin? And justify it?

Do you hear us justifying our sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No. Most who believe in Eternal Security do not believe CONTINUED confession of sin is necessary for salvation. They believe once you are saved, there is nothing you can do to remove yourself from Christ. This I believe is a dark and evil teaching.

No, Evil teaching is teaching you can be good enough to earn salvation. Praising God your not like the sinner.

You need to become the tax collector. until you do this, you will never know salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Right. The person who thinks they can sin and still be saved is not going to be chastised because they don't believe they are doing anything wrong.

lol.. Like you?

Here is what the difference between you and I are.

You think your righteous.

I KNOW I AM A SINNER.

 

[blue_ladybug]

lol.. Like you?

Here is what the difference between you and I are.

You think your righteous.

I KNOW I AM A SINNER.

we are ALL sinners. Yes, Jason, that even includes you..

 

[Rudimental]

what if you forget to confess one sin? and die in your sleep? what if before the truck hits you you say damn; then you are in a coma?
Is God's mercy and forgiveness predicated on YOU asking? do you have to confess it outloud verbally?

I'm not trying to be a jerk I just don't understand why this keeping track of sins is beneficial, it seems it would be a heavy load
seems like it would be more productive to concentrate on Jesus (thanking Him for paying the price for my unbelief and disobeiance) and strive to do that which is right in His sight than marking all the checkboxes of "sins I comitted today"

Is that really your take on it? You don't know the bible or God very well if that is your take on Salvation. When you accept Jesus as your personal lord and Saviour and become born again. That is it. God has forgiven you of ALL sins and has even forgot them. You are born again. All your future sins are covered by the Holy Spirit.

But I thought we all already all knew this and is the whole reason we're here in the first place?

Also, what was the point in God creating planet earth if after all this suffering here on earth we go to be spirit persons in some spirit realm?, why not create us spirit persons in the beginning?. Seems to me God went to a lot of trouble to create such an amazing universe with phenomenal natural structures and plant life and animal life and human beings for them to suffer in this debauched world only to be with Him in this spiritual heaven, i can't get my head around that one, also, does this not mean that God is part to blame for the suffering of mankind?, something does not sit right with me on this subject at hand. Each to their own interpretation i suppose, but what a mess of confusion, no wonder atheists mock sometimes, not that i agree with mocking but it can be a little disconcerting, imho.

Uhmm excuse me sir but you're forgetting or not knowing of Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
And 2 Peter 3:3-13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
And Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
And 2 Peter 3:3-15 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
And even Revelation 21:1 And I saw new Heavens and a new Earth.

So in response to you. There will be new Earth and a new Heaven. And it's going to be so much better than our minds can even begin to imagine. Where The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. And you better believe it! We will be spiritual yes, but that doesn't mean to say we wont be able to interact with physical things on earth and no we wont look like ghostly spirits you see on TV!

What is there to mock? God uses fools to shame the wise. He uses the low and weak to shame and humble the high and proud to confuse the mind of the unbeliever. It's all written down.

 

[PennEd]

I mean, think about it. Who is God going to honor more? The guy who just ignores their sin and believes on Jesus, or the guy who honestly wanted to do what was right with the Lord? Would not God be immoral for allowing his believers to get away with evil (i.e. a sin and still be saved doctrine)?

Jason, Brother, you are all fouled up with this law stuff. Re-re-re-read Galatians, and get the point Paul was begging them to see. Which is why would you want to go back to trying to keep the Law to earn Salvation.

I have NEVER done good for ANYONE with the thought that I HAD to do good to keep or earn my Salvation. The ONLY times I have ever done a good work, is when I truly want to do it because of the love and appreciation I have for what Jesus has done for me by paying the price and forgiving me of ALL my sins, and I don't want any of the glory. THAT is the ONLY way I can live my life free to not be trapped by fleshly sins. BUT because I still inhabit this fleshly body, I DO stumble from time to time. I ask God for forgiveness, with the assurance that He will, and to continue to transform me to be more and more Christ-like.

 

[Utah]

Thank him for what? So that a believer can just go back to living the way they used to? If that is the case, then why doesn't God just force salvation on everyone then? For surely with an OSAS type belief, he is forcing his salvation on people after they accept Him. For once a person has done that prayer, they are forever saved and cannot turn back. They are forever saved, whether they like it or not.

Jason, normally I wouldn't even dignify the blue worded question with a response, however . . .

My jaw is dropped in utter amazement because you refuse to understand there are many Christians who rejoice in the saving grace of Jesus Christ -- OSAS and we strive to bear good fruit by loving God, loving others and advancing the Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth. We prefer to do this rather than willfully live a life of sinful decadence.

We thank Jesus because of what He did for us on the Cross and what He continues to do for us every nanosecond of our existence -- love us, protect us and sanctify us. We are washed in His blood, forgiven and have eternal life. In Jesus Christ, we are a new creation, and knowing this, we have peace and rejoice. Are we sinners? Yes, but we strive for the Kingdom all the more.

And not for nothing, but who doesn't want to be saved, like it or not? Come on, man.

 

[dcontroversal]

that does not make any sense.

According to the standard God placed in effect. There are non righteous, no not one. You can not live up to the law. You need to stop trying to compair yourself to other people. and compair yourself to Gods standard.

According to Gods standard. you fail to live up. thus your evil in Gods eyes.

Then again, Like I stated earlier. You refuse to be the tax collector. and would rather be the pharisee. You just proved my point.

Amen and the Lord said there is none good no not one as well.....and again he denies that God's use of chastisement is not a deterrent for believers to keep them in line.....totally rejects the view of God on chastisement and in essence is calling God's ways not sufficient

Originally Posted by Jason0047

No, that doesn't make any sense. People do evil all the time and live perfectly good lives. Believers are persecuted to the point of death. Chastisement is not really that big of a deterrent for believers who think they can get away with sin. For unbelievers suffer the same challenges in this life. So no. I am not buying it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jason, normally I wouldn't even dignify the blue worded question with a response, however . . .

My jaw is dropped in utter amazement because you refuse to understand there are many Christians who rejoice in the saving grace of Jesus Christ -- OSAS and we strive to bear good fruit by loving God, loving others and advancing the Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth. We prefer to do this rather than willfully live a life of sinful decadence.

We thank Jesus because of what He did for us on the Cross and what He continues to do for us every nanosecond of our existence -- love us, protect us and sanctify us. We are washed in His blood, forgiven and have eternal life. In Jesus Christ, we are a new creation, and knowing this, we have peace and rejoice. Are we sinners? Yes, but we strive for the Kingdom all the more.

And not for nothing, but who doesn't want to be saved, like it or not? Come on, man.

Double AMEN and one of many straw arguments that he uses to try and oppose the truth of eternal security....!

 

[TMS]

Double AMEN and one of many straw arguments that he uses to try and oppose the truth of eternal security....!

What is eternal securiy? Is it the same as once saved always saved?

 

[Sophia]

What is eternal securiy? Is it the same as once saved always saved?

In a sense.
Many people use them interchangeably.

Eternal Security deals with our salvation being secured:
by the Sacrifice(death) and Victory(Resurrection) of Christ,
through the sealing of the Holy Spirit,
in accordance to the Election of the Father.

OSAS is more dealing with the "perseverance of the saints", that all those who truly believe cannot fall from the state of Salvation.

OSAS is less accurate, so I don't use the phrase. There are such things as apostates, which some forms of OSAS deny. Eternal Security accurately proclaims the position that Believers have in Christ.