Explain these 2 verses.

[Alextor]

I would love to know what your understanding of these 2 verses are.



For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10




And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2​

 

[SeaBass]

1 Tm 4:10 being faithful to God requires work, striving.

In v8 Paul said godliness is profitable unto all things. Godliness refers to how one lives, conducts his life. Verse 10 "And for this end", for Christian to live a godly life before God requires working, striving with both labor and striving being in the present tense denoting a present, ongoing action. Rom 16:12 "workers in the Lord".

Why do this working/striving? "because we have our hope set on the living God". Hope saves, Rom 8:24, and the hope set on the living God includes working and striving.

" who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Does not mean all men will be saved, but God desires all men repent and be saved thereby has given all men the opportunity to be saved and is in that sense the Saviour of all men by freely providing salvation to all men. Only those that co-operate with God in believing will be the actually saved.

1 Jn 2:2 Christ is the propitiation for sins of the whole world but the whole world will not take advantage of Christ being that propitiation by believing.

 

[Alextor]

1 Tm 4:10 being faithful to God requires work, striving.

In v8 Paul said godliness is profitable unto all things. Godliness refers to how one lives, conducts his life. Verse 10 "And for this end", for Christian to live a godly life before God requires working, striving with both labor and striving being in the present tense denoting a present, ongoing action. Rom 16:12 "workers in the Lord".

Why do this working/striving? "because we have our hope set on the living God". Hope saves, Rom 8:24, and the hope set on the living God includes working and striving.

" who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Does not mean all men will be saved, but God desires all men repent and be saved thereby has given all men the opportunity to be saved and is in that sense the Saviour of all men by freely providing salvation to all men. Only those that co-operate with God in believing will be the actually saved.

1 Jn 2:2 Christ is the propitiation for sins of the whole world but the whole world will not take advantage of Christ being that propitiation by believing.

Okay. I really want to understand. So when Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said He came to the save the world, he was not able to do this because most men are not willing to make the right choice? Is that the correct understanding?

 

[crossnote]

I would love to know what your understanding of these 2 verses are.



For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10




And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2​

Maybe you can share your understanding so we are not tapping in the dark.

 

[Alextor]

Maybe you can share your understanding so we are not tapping in the dark.

That's just it. I question my own understanding of those 2 verses.

Just like this one.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
​

If it is the Lord's will that none should perish and all come to repentance isn't His will going to be done?

What I'm reading on so many different post on this forum is that most men are not going to make it. That is confusing to me.

 

[SeaBass]

Okay. I really want to understand. So when Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said He came to the save the world, he was not able to do this because most men are not willing to make the right choice? Is that the correct understanding?

Christ is able to save every man (Heb 2:9) but cannot without man doing his own part in salvation.

So it is the sense that Christ died for every man that Christ is the Saviour of the world, but man must do his part in believing to actually be saved. If man does not do his part in believing, he will be lost but that is not a failure on Christ's part for He still died for every man, it's a failure on the part of man.

 

[SeaBass]

If it is the Lord's will that none should perish and all come to repentance isn't His will going to be done?

The bible speaks of GOd's will in various ways:

1) decretive will, this is where what God decrees will for certain come about as God decreed the world/universe into existence and nothing could stop what God decrees.

2) God's permissive will speaks about the things God permits/allows to happen

3) God's preceptive will, as used in 2 Pet 3:9 which shows what God desires/wishes men will do. If God decreed all men be saved then all men would for certain be saved, but God did not decree that. God WISHES all men would use their free will and choose to come to repentance and be saved. God does not always get what He desires/wishes with men, Mt 23:37.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I would love to know what your understanding of these 2 verses are.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
​

Timothy 1 & 2 plus Titus have been labelled "pastoral epistles", Paul's instructions for pastors in the various aspects of Church operations. Neither of those men were permanent pastors in one place like Ephesus or Crete, but were sent out by Paul to deal with the difficulties of growing up a church. The two men were like special agents from Paul, like Billy Graham sent out to prepare for a crusade, then follow up with very experienced pastoral helpers to help a new pastor build a church. That sort of activity is common today.

The "thorn in the flesh" Paul wrote about was the Judaizers who came along behind his ministry. They sought to influence new believers, and their new pastors, to require keeping the Mosaic law and be circumcised to be truly saved, in other words, convert to Judaism, while adding Christ as Messiah. That was supposed to have been settled in Acts 15, but many former Jews ignored the decision there, promoting the law to the Gentiles. According to them no Gentile could be saved apart from being a Jew.

Timothy was assigned to help correct such teachings, bringing Paul's churches back in line with the gospel of Christ he taught. Consider Paul's statement in Romans 10:11-13 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [SUP]13 [/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God is savior of all men who believe, regardless of former religious status.
The "believe" is of course concerning belief upon Jesus, but there are people who pleased God through faith, whether a Gentile like Abraham, or Jew like Moses. Moses was sent with Elijah to meet with Jesus concerning his imminent death, so we know God is willing to save any person who lives by faith God's way.

Now concerning 1 John 2:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Notice the minimal context around your verse. It is conditional. American justice is guided by that principle. If put on trial for a crime, former crimes can't be reported to a jury until after a conviction. One's attorney then deals only with the current accusation. If the accused is found not guilty of committing a recent crime as accused, the attorney has little worry about obtaining an acquittal. But if it is proved the accused did indeed violate law, the defense is damaged.

If a believer is keeping the commandments of Christ, Satan can't succeed in getting a conviction against us. The greatest defense advocate of all time is on our side. One of those commandments is to confess a sin, then be forgiven. If forgiven already, there can be no trial risking double jeopardy, being tried twice for the same sin. That's why it is imperative that all believers stay in the habit of keeping the commandments of Christ, and readily confessing any breaches immediately, before Satan can bring an accusation. That keeps the matter 'out of court', that is, not subject to judgment. Jesus then rests the case on the basis of his blood shed for the remission of sin, himself the propitiation (substitutionary atonement) for our sin. We must not abuse that. Stop sinning! See John 8:10-11 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
[SUP]11 [/SUP] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[84Niner]

That's just it. I question my own understanding of those 2 verses.

Just like this one.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
​

If it is the Lord's will that none should perish and all come to repentance isn't His will going to be done?

What I'm reading on so many different post on this forum is that most men are not going to make it. That is confusing to me.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Lord will not violate a persons will. Nobody is forced into salvation. We also always have to remember that salvation is not simply a clearing away of sin, but more importantly it is a "relationship with God", not unlike the love relationship between a husband and wife. Even at the end of this age there will be a divine wedding between redeemed man and Christ.

The bible can be seen as a divine romance, where God is romancing man, verses forcing man into this relationship. Yes, there is scripture that allows one to make an argument that we are chosen and predestinated and thus we have no say in the matter. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because we are "chosen" that we forfeit our free will. What kind of loving relationship would it be if we were all forced into it with no regard for our own will.

 

[Alextor]

Christ is able to save every man (Heb 2:9) but cannot without man doing his own part in salvation.

So it is the sense that Christ died for every man that Christ is the Saviour of the world, but man must do his part in believing to actually be saved. If man does not do his part in believing, he will be lost but that is not a failure on Christ's part for He still died for every man, it's a failure on the part of man.

I think I may understand what you are saying. Man has to put forth some sort of effort in order to be saved through Jesus Christ. Is that right?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I think I may understand what you are saying. Man has to put forth some sort of effort in order to be saved through Jesus Christ. Is that right?

Perhaps this analogy will fail on some level, but think of it like this:

If a cure for terminal cancer was found and somebody with terminal cancer refused the cure, then they would die of cancer. Similarly, although a cure for sin has been provided through Christ's redemptive work, if somebody refuses the same, then they will die in their sins.

 

[PeterJens]

I think I may understand what you are saying. Man has to put forth some sort of effort in order to be saved through Jesus Christ. Is that right?

You are really asking "What is salvation?"
Salvation is becoming like Christ, by letting love transform you from within into a new person, to remake you.
It is like seeing a seed planted in a pot. It grows unseen, and then the first shoots, then leaves, then branches etc.
At which point is it saved? Why from the beginning. What happens if it dies? Then salvation has been lost. But surely you can never lose salvation when once received? Yes you can. You can persistently choose to overthrow love in you life and destroy all the good and life that has been planted. But that is not doubting God, that is choosing to hate, to become bitter, to lash out and destroy those around you, to become hypocritical and hardened in you heart, so only power and show remain, which is what many pharisees became and why Jesus called them children of satan.
Now this is a hard road, but it is also beautiful and full of life. As for the Lord, there is no other way, and though few will truly walk it, each are worth eternity, where in they will dwell.

 

[Alextor]

I really like the way yall try to explain it. But this is the way it appears to me. Man belongs to God the Father. That is my understanding.

The devil wants to prevent man from having a relationship with God our Father. In other words, the devil wants to prevent man from going to heaven and being with God our Father. That is my understanding.

Jesus Christ, God's Son, came to earth, received our judgment, took man's punishment, reconciling man to God our Father, and gave eternal life, as commanded by the Father. That is my understanding.

But most of mankind will not accept this fact, this gift, and as a result most of mankind will go to an eternal punishment, even though Jesus Christ took the punishment for man's sin. As I have been taught.

It appears to me, from what I have heard, that the devil wins.

Is this a wrong conclusion?

 

[MarcR]

I would love to know what your understanding of these 2 verses are.



For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10




And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

​

I believe the intent here is that Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for SIN---ALL SIN.

Each person, to benefit from this payment, must confess and repent of his/her sin and acknowledge Jesus as Lord (owner) of their life.

The only thing that can send a person to Hell is rejecting Jesus' provision for their sin and His claims on their life.

 

[MarcR]

That's just it. I question my own understanding of those 2 verses.

Just like this one.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
​

If it is the Lord's will that none should perish and all come to repentance isn't His will going to be done?

What I'm reading on so many different post on this forum is that most men are not going to make it. That is confusing to me.

IMO this is what is happening here:

God created mankind because He wanted a creature who was able to receive and return His love.

The price God paid for a creature able to love Him was that He got a creature able to reject His love and go his own way.

Love can NOT be programmed or imposed!

God had to choose between preventing both Evil and love or preventing neither evil nor love; because love is impossible without free will.

The freewill that makes love possible also makes rejection of God's will possible.

 

[Elin]

That's just it. I question my own understanding of those 2 verses.

Just like this one.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9​

That is written to believers, explaining why Christ had not yet returned.
"All" is the elect.
Christ will not return until all the elect have come in.
​

 

[Elin]

I would love to know what your understanding of these 2 verses are.



For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10​

Yes, God is the Savior of all who come to him.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Those from the whole world, not just Israel.​

 

[forsha]

Okay. I really want to understand. So when Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said He came to the save the world, he was not able to do this because most men are not willing to make the right choice? Is that the correct understanding?

Until a man is born again of the Spirit he will not, and indeed can not, be able to discern spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14). This takes all of the power of man to credit himself for his own eternal salvation, and not give God all of the credit, honor, and praise. Men have gone to great lengths to misinterpret the scriptures so he can claim credit for himself for his eternal salvation.

 

[forsha]

I would love to know what your understanding of these 2 verses are.



For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10




And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2​

1 Tim 4:10- The word "world" is referring to "believers only". Eph 5:23- For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church(which includes all born again people); and he is the savior of the body(all of the elect family of God, those who don't believe, and especially of those who believe). 1 John 2:2 - The word "world" in this verse is interpreted from the Greek language, according to Thayer's Greek interpretation, to mean, restricted to believers only. There are several other scriptures that use the word "world" that are restricted to believers only, such as, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, and 2 Cor 5:19. Remember, all scripture must fit together without any contradictions.

 

[forsha]

That's just it. I question my own understanding of those 2 verses.

Just like this one.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
​

If it is the Lord's will that none should perish and all come to repentance isn't His will going to be done?

What I'm reading on so many different post on this forum is that most men are not going to make it. That is confusing to me.

2 Pet 3:9 - Peter is writing to (2 Pet 1:1) his brethren who have obtained like precious faith who are already born of the Spirit warning them in chapter 3:9, and including himself by the word "us-ward" that when they sin, that they should repent to keep them from "perishing"(losing their fellowship with God). The population of heaven will consist of too many to number and will include all of those that God gave to Jesus to die for(John 6:39). Remember, all scripture must harmonize.