Should America ban 'offensive' licence plates?

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Jan 27, 2013
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#21
We do weird things over here, Royal. I once followed a cute blonde in a Mercedes 350SL with the vanity plate "10N01" on it. Took me six miles to realize she was saying, "I owe no one."


Have to admit, my first thought was "You say so."

I mean, if she felt the need to say it, was she feeling guilty? :cool:
strange thing , vanity , having money, seems to be the upside, the downside, having many so called friends.

the joy of having, true friends v so called friends. the enigmas, of being skint and having a life. lol







 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#22
In this rapidly devolving PC America, absolutely not. The Confederate flag isn't offensive to anyone who knows the history behind it.

While offensive language vanity plates are already banned. But this flag issue shouldn't be on that list.

Should America ban 'offensive' licence plates? - BBC News

A licence plate displaying the Confederate Flag has sparked a US Supreme Court battle over the right to free speech. Have "novelty" plates gone too far?

For visitors it can be fascinating and bizarre to discover the range of niche interests that proud motorists identify themselves with.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#23
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Definition: ABRIDGE-
LAW
curtail (rights or privileges).


Definition: TOTALITARIAN-
of or relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.


IOW
Raise whatever flag you wish
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#24
Me and my friend were talking about this today on the way fishing for the first time this year. Specifically on the confederate flag stufff. Both our sentiment was that for being Americans and especially in Ohio it be of course uncouth to have the confederate flag for historical reasons of what it symbolizes and the regime it stood for.

Then even as we are dicussing the issue a truck drives by mounted with pole and actual confederate flag in the back lol. So much for the vanity plates issue I suoose lol.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#25
It's hard to say what SCOTUS will decide on this issue. However, the Confederate battle flag is not nor was it ever intended to deliver a racist message.
If blacks and others can force the Confederate battle flag out of sight in America based on their false contention, their perpetual victim argument beyond the age of slavery when those most opposed never even knew someone who was enslaved, then the first amendment should be stricken from the Constitution. And PC racist favoritism language should take its place.


[h=2][SIZE=+2]The Historical Background and Meaning of the Confederate Flag [/SIZE][/h](Sic)"... Why attack the Confederate Battle Flag? Why attack Confederate symbols? Let me tell you something. Whenever the Confederate Battle Flag is attacked, and the attacks are so vicious and so ferocious, it is because it is an attack on the truth. Because the South was not fighting as a racist nation or as a slave holding nation, they were fighting for constitutional rights. They were fighting for State's rights. Did you know that there were many in the South when it came to adopting a flag, that said, ?Let's take the Stars and Stripes? Why? Because we are the ones that are remaining true to the Constitution. Let them adopt another flag because they are untrue! To attack the flag is a attack on political incorrectness. The flag represents those who are opposed to unlimited federal government. The flag represents a limited Constitutional republic. A view of government opposed to the powers that be."
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#26
It's hard to say what SCOTUS will decide on this issue. However, the Confederate battle flag is not nor was it ever intended to deliver a racist message.
If blacks and others can force the Confederate battle flag out of sight in America based on their false contention, their perpetual victim argument beyond the age of slavery when those most opposed never even knew someone who was enslaved, then the first amendment should be stricken from the Constitution. And PC racist favoritism language should take its place.


[SIZE=+2]The Historical Background and Meaning of the Confederate Flag [/SIZE]

(Sic)"... Why attack the Confederate Battle Flag? Why attack Confederate symbols? Let me tell you something. Whenever the Confederate Battle Flag is attacked, and the attacks are so vicious and so ferocious, it is because it is an attack on the truth. Because the South was not fighting as a racist nation or as a slave holding nation, they were fighting for constitutional rights. They were fighting for State's rights. Did you know that there were many in the South when it came to adopting a flag, that said, ?Let's take the Stars and Stripes? Why? Because we are the ones that are remaining true to the Constitution. Let them adopt another flag because they are untrue! To attack the flag is a attack on political incorrectness. The flag represents those who are opposed to unlimited federal government. The flag represents a limited Constitutional republic. A view of government opposed to the powers that be."
No, it is not possible for the dixie flag to represent anything to do with the US Constitution or US rights because it is the banner of a nation which betrayed and attacked America. The closest comparison would be to the nazi flag which is also a nation that attacked America.

The confederate flag is a symbol of a regime. The dixie regime symbolizes slavery, and high treason. It symbolizes the bloodiest war in American history. It symbolizes fratricide and racism. This is why it is considerred offensive to many Americans.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#27
We've got a a potential terrorist attack in France that has killed 150 people on board a deliberately crashed plane, and Saudi Arabia may be getting ready to lead a Mideast coalition against ISIS-inspired terror-tribesmen in Yemen, and we're debating "offensive" license plates??
I think if it was a terrorist attack, someone would have admitted to it by now?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,283
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#28
QUOTE:

No, it is not possible for the dixie flag to represent anything to do with the US Constitution or US rights because it is the banner of a nation which betrayed and attacked America. The closest comparison would be to the nazi flag which is also a nation that attacked America.

The confederate flag is a symbol of a regime. The dixie regime symbolizes slavery, and high treason. It symbolizes the bloodiest war in American history. It symbolizes fratricide and racism. This is why it is considerred offensive to many Americans.

END QUOTE..........

Hmm, about 90% prejudicial opinion I suspect and about 10% Historical facts. Such a favorite pastime of you guys to "identify" anyone you disagree with to the Nazis. Don't y'all ever get tired of that? Silly question, apparently not.
As well, what the Confederate Flag represents depends on the person. Now, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but goodness, do you even bother to consider the full impact of what you are posting?

EXAMPLE: Take your view as quoted above and apply it to the American Revolution. See what England MAY have considered the rebels in the New World to be. Did the BETRAY and ATTACK their Government? Did they VIOLATE the LAWS of their Government? Are they ALSO to be CLOSELY COMPARED to the Nazis? What does the American Flag symbolize?

You should take more thought into your comments.........seriously.

Now, certainly slavery was an issue, but it WAS NOT the ONLY dividing issue or root cause of the Civil War. It was SURELY made to be the one central issue, but that is not how it all started. And, like it or not, States Rights was a VERY REAL issue at that time. A very small percent of the population of the Confederate States even owned slaves. Are you aware of that? The ownership of slaves required one to be quite wealthy. The majority of Confederate soldiers were not fighting for the right to own slaves, but for the right of Self Government...........States Rights.

Now, I am very glad that slavery was abolished in the US, and I wish it would be abolished world wide, but, sadly, it still exists. And little is being done by the US or any other Western Nation to combat this practice where it exists. What about that? Should we go to war to abolish slavery world wide?

Concerning the Constitutional Congress, and their views.............."Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness......." Ever hear that? Do you know the original language was "Life, Liberty, and Property?" Well, it is true. It was changed because a number of the delegates involved in the writing of the Constitution were afraid that this would Legalize Slavery in America.

The Confederate Flag is a controversial flag, and there is no doubt of that. However, has it not now come to fruition that the American Flag is controversial? Just look at all the News reports of folks wanting to ban it being flown in certain places.

The Declaration of Independence was an act of HIGH TREASON was it not?

Many things to consider here......................many things to work out before one makes such a statement as you made. Not EVERY Southern person back then was pro-slavery, just as not every Yankee was anti-slavery.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#29
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

READ AND CONSIDER..........and, to realize the state of our Nation today.......CONSIDER the Federal Government's rule over the various States, and it's peoples today........in the same light as King George is portrayed above.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#30
Yea the Americans would be traitors to England if England had not signed a piece of paper in France forgiving them and allowing that America be it's own country.

Dixie regime on the other hand attacked America for not letting slavery expand. The CSA was not the USA. They ain't called the rebels and their flag the Rebel Flag for nothing. That is even what it symbolizes.

Many neo-nazi and neo-confederate groups run together and share the same motiffs and emblems and symbols and rhetoric. The comparison is fair. It is a strange phenomena in that both regimes were fought and defeated with the USA as a main opponent.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#31
Dixie regime on the other hand attacked America for not letting slavery expand. The CSA was not the USA. They ain't called the rebels and their flag the Rebel Flag for nothing. That is even what it symbolizes.
The CSA did what it felt it had to do in order for individuals to survive economically. Slavery was barely an issue in the War Between the States. The top reasons were:

  1. Tariffs: Prior to the war about 75% of the money to operate the Federal Government was derived from the Southern States via an unfair sectional tariff on imported goods and 50% of the total 75% was from just 4 Southern states --Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.
  2. Centralization v. States' Rights: The United States of America was founded as a Constitutional Federal Republic in 1789 composed of a limited federal government consisting of otherwise sovereign states. The North wanted to and did alter the form of Government this nation was founded upon. The Confederate States of America fought to preserve constitutional limited federal government as established by America’s founding fathers -- who, ironically, were primarily from the South!
  3. Christianity v. Secular Humanism: The South believed in basic Christianity as presented in the Holy Bible.The North, even 150 years ago, had many secular hHumanists (atheists, transcendentalists and non-Christians) espousing philosophies advocating human rather than religious values.
  4. Cultural Warfare: Southerners and Northerners were of different Genetic Lineages. Southerners were primarily of Western English (original Britons), Scottish, and Irish linage (Celtic) whereas Northerners tended to be of Anglo-Saxon and Danish (Viking) extraction. The two cultures had been at war and at odds for over 1000 years before they arrived in America.
  5. Western Territorial Control: The North wanted to control Western States and Territories such as Kansas and Nebraska. New England formed Immigrant Aid Societies and sent settlers to these areas that were politically attached to the North. They passed laws against slavery that Southerners considered punitive. These political actions told Southerners they were not welcome in the new states and territories. It was all about control -- slavery was a scapegoat.
  6. Northern Industrialists' Designs on Southern Resources: The Northern Industrialists wanted a war to use as an excuse to get the South's resources for pennies on the dollar. They began a campaign about 1830 that would influence the common people of the North and create enmity that would allow them to go to war against the South.
  7. "Yellow Journalism" targeting the South: This political cause ties in to the above listed efforts by New England Industrialists. Beginning about 1830 the Northern Newspapers began to slander the South. The Industrialists used this tool to indoctrinate the common people of the North. They used slavery as a scapegoat and brought the morality claim up to a feverish pitch. Southerners became tired of reading in the Northern Newspapers about what bad and evil people they were just because their neighbor down the road had a few slaves. This propaganda campaign created hostility between the ordinary citizens of the two regions and created the animosity necessary for war.
  8. Instigation of Slave Rebellions by the North: Abolitionists were a small but vocal and militant group in New England who demanded instant abolition of slavery in the South. These fanatics and zealots were calling for massive slave uprisings that would result in the murder of Southern men, women and children. Southerners were aware that such an uprising had occurred in Santa Domingo in the 1790 era and that the French (white) population had been massacred. Abolitionists published a terrorist manifesto and tried to smuggle 100,000 copies into the South showing slaves how to murder their masters at night. Then when John Brown raided Harpers Ferry,Virginia in 1859 the political situation became inflammatory. Prior to this event there had been five times as many abolition societies in the South as in the North. Lincoln and most of the Republican Party ( 64 members of congress ) had adopted a political platform in support of terrorist acts against the South.
  9. Slavery: Indirectly slavery was a cause of the war. Most Southerners did not own slaves and would not have fought for the protection of slavery. However they believed that the North had no Constitutional right to free slaves held by citizens of Sovereign Southern States.
  10. Northern Aggression: Proof that Abraham Lincoln wanted war may be found in the manner he handled the Fort Sumter incident. Original correspondence between Lincoln and Naval Captain G.V. Fox shows proof that Lincoln acted with deceit and willfully provoked South Carolina into firing on the fort. Not coincidentally, the fort served as a tariff collection facility. It was politically important that the South be provoked into firing the first shot so that Lincoln could claim the Confederacy started the war.
Most of the fears the South harbored about Northern influence were justified. The government has grown so as to swallow up States' Rights and is now embarking on destroying individuals' rights. Western society would be better off today if the South had won.
 
Last edited:

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#32
So much for trying to educate ignorance. :rolleyes:

No, it is not possible for the dixie flag to represent anything to do with the US Constitution or US rights because it is the banner of a nation which betrayed and attacked America. The closest comparison would be to the nazi flag which is also a nation that attacked America.

The confederate flag is a symbol of a regime. The dixie regime symbolizes slavery, and high treason. It symbolizes the bloodiest war in American history. It symbolizes fratricide and racism. This is why it is considerred offensive to many Americans.
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#33
sorry but this is the uk, i know some of the history, surrounding some things, but with all due respect, we have no clue in scotland, what all the fuss is about. so in short we are clueless. to the bigotry involved. surrounding some things,
or how it affects usa, in different parts, ie in the uk we cant carry a gun, we cant even carry a knife, we could get 2years in jail, if caught with a knife, on your person. we dont have the death penalty. i some time wonder why you american think, we think the same as americans, the closed we get to see is films and tv, in short we are really naive in a lot of thing.
the closest we get to bigotry, in scotland is catholic v prodescent

For visitors it can be fascinating and bizarre to discover the range of niche interests that proud motorists identify themselves with.

That's pretty amazing that it's against the law to carry weapons. I wish that was true in the US. I often thought about living in Scotland, as that's where my father's ancestors are from.
 
N

nw2u

Guest
#34
I think, sometimes you have to realise you are better than some bigot racist. Sometimes, you have to fight it in court. License plates might not be worth the effort just to show bigots they are wrong. Advancing awareness and educating them might prove more helpful, sometimes. If those who are not African American would consistently step forward and publicly tell those with those license plates they are offended, it would do much more to change minds.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#35
I think, sometimes you have to realise you are better than some bigot racist. Sometimes, you have to fight it in court. License plates might not be worth the effort just to show bigots they are wrong. Advancing awareness and educating them might prove more helpful, sometimes. If those who are not African American would consistently step forward and publicly tell those with those license plates they are offended, it would do much more to change minds.
What if we're not offended by such plates?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,283
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#37
Yea the Americans would be traitors to England if England had not signed a piece of paper in France forgiving them and allowing that America be it's own country.

Dixie regime on the other hand attacked America for not letting slavery expand. The CSA was not the USA. They ain't called the rebels and their flag the Rebel Flag for nothing. That is even what it symbolizes.

Many neo-nazi and neo-confederate groups run together and share the same motiffs and emblems and symbols and rhetoric. The comparison is fair. It is a strange phenomena in that both regimes were fought and defeated with the USA as a main opponent.
You really don't understand American History do you? Oh well...............I can only suggest you study up. The comparison is no more fair than comparing the Founding Fathers and Revolutionary soldiers to the 3rd Reich.

Now, you haven't even mentioned the Native American, and what this Government did to them. How about that for a comparison eh?

History is fraught with horrible acts being committed, by all sorts of people, and, yes, by Governments, even our own.

The reason slavery became the focal point of the Civil War is because Lincoln himself believed slavery to be a sin against God and man, and he was willing to die to end the practice of slavery. He spoke of this and wrote about it. And I thank God that such a man as Lincoln was there during that dark time in our History. But to compare those who had valid disagreements with the Federal Government (other than slavery) to Nazi Germany is inane at best. Hate speech at worst.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#38
The crux of the matter I think is Southern guilt for the whole slavery thing. With the US Civil War slavery is the central issue. That is the main reason the CSA seceded. Not only did they secede, but they attacked first. That's the real history. That is not my opinion. They lost the Civil War too. People say that is being uneducated and oft say it's because States Rights. Well what was the States' Rights issue of that time? It was slavery.

My opinion is I like history so I don't mind too much, but I can see why it's uncouth in many places in America and I know why a fair number of people find that particular flag offensive. The people in the Old South region of USA are more lenient on flying that flag to no one's surprise, but up here not so smart an idea. Don't wanna be confused for a gangsta.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,283
6,585
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#39
The crux of the matter I think is Southern guilt for the whole slavery thing. With the US Civil War slavery is the central issue. That is the main reason the CSA seceded. Not only did they secede, but they attacked first. That's the real history. That is not my opinion. They lost the Civil War too. People say that is being uneducated and oft say it's because States Rights. Well what was the States' Rights issue of that time? It was slavery.

My opinion is I like history so I don't mind too much, but I can see why it's uncouth in many places in America and I know why a fair number of people find that particular flag offensive. The people in the Old South region of USA are more lenient on flying that flag to no one's surprise, but up here not so smart an idea. Don't wanna be confused for a gangsta.
Your entitled to your opinion. However un-Historical it may be. As for "white guilt?" That little mind trip was promoted by the socialist liberals starting in the early 70's........Liberals have been pushing this particular ideology for decades, yet it only seems to cause far more harm than good. As with the majority of their ideologies, "white guilt" is in the eye of the socialist liberal" only.

Again, slavery was "made" the "central issue" by President Lincoln for the reason I stated prior, and to rally support for the war cause against the South. You can continue to profess that there were no "real" differences in ideology concerning self Government, States Rights between the States, but you do so in ignorance of the truth.

One of the most powerful statement President Lincoln made, and one of the most effective in bringing the issue of slavery to the forefront of the War effort was:

abe lincoln07.jpg
 
Jan 27, 2013
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#40
In this rapidly devolving PC America, absolutely not. The Confederate flag isn't offensive to anyone who knows the history behind it.

While offensive language vanity plates are already banned. But this flag issue shouldn't be on that list.
sorry, the topic said.[h=2]'offensive' licence plates?[/h]so there must be a difference of opinion, i remain platonic to the subject, i am neither. for or against. these issues, some of you bring to this topic. but bordering in/on living in the past , history reminds us, change is still happening, all over the world.
for example the non christian jewish v christian jewish.
change has been happening for many centuries , even paul talks about slaves. back in bible times.

i am more concerned, in a changing world, for the next generation, that there will be no bigotry of any shape or form . for any nation. regarding colour, nationality , etc etc