Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[michael56]

And I've said this before (not in the same wording), I'm a follower of Yeshua, not a follower of Paul. Paul had good teachings, but Yeshua is my teacher.

If you are not a follower of Paul's teachings, how can you be a follower of Christ's teaching? Christ gave Paul the message to preach that he wrote in his Epistles.

 

[DesiredHaven]

There is certainly no lack of moral guidance in the New Covenant Scriptures. Things like murder, adultery, slander, theft, etc. are still sin.

Paul exhorts us to not sin; sinning is dumb and destructive to us and to those around us.

But make no mistake: Paul was NOT preaching Law, or he would have been calling for the man in 1 Cor. 5 to be stoned, not merely put out of the assembly.

In 2 Cor. 3 the Ten Commandments (carved on tablets of stone) are described by Paul as the Ministry of Death.

The Law, as given, and with all of its jots and tittles that Torah folk are so fond of pointing out have not passed, contains instructions on punishments for Law-breakers.

No, Paul was not teaching Torah observance. If he were, we would have a rebuilt Temple and stonings and sacrifices would be common occurrences today.

As JITC pointed out Paul said,

Ephes 6: 2-3 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Paul was indeed preaching the commandment as it is found in the law here

Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

And here as well...

Duet 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Even as it speaks of us requiting our own parents being a good and acceptable thing before God, when a man does not provide for his own he is actually denying the faith

1 Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house,
he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Denying the faith and worse than an infidel

 

[Biblelogic01]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments? I'm still trying to figure out how 1 that doesn't make sense, and 2 when did the words of Paul become greater than Yeshua's? Almost every time I quote Yeshua, it's countered with Paul.

 

[Karraster]

Sorry, I disagree.

Me keeping some feast is not going to be me showing Gods love to others. God has more important things for me to do than do some feast or holiday which keeps me from serving others.

Just curious...how in the world does observing the Feasts prevent you from serving others? Don't you ever take a day off to do something special?

 

[JGIG]

No, but as you can see in my post to eternally-gratefull, I posted a list of laws that are summed up in 1 word and that word is love.

Now again the death side of the law you can is done away with but also not at the same time. Like I said in the post earlier, Yeshua defeated death and Yeshua was the sin sacrifices and His blood covers that, therfor no need for stoning, and then again with the stoning if it is to followed (which I don't think it is, again due to Yeshua), it would even be possible in today's society because there's no Levitical order for judging, and Yeshua is also the final judge.

Again with those jots and tittles. Either they passed or they didn't. Which is it?

About that priesthood.

Who is the High Priest now?

Of what Covenant?

Rendering which Covenant obsolete?

And believers are DEAD to which Covenant?

I don't remember the exact spot or scripture, but it does state if you follow one law you must follow all, or there's no point.

Galatians 3:19, James 2:10.

Along with that you're heart has to be in the right place.

For example: If I gripe and complain and I'm ungreatful about one of the laws, but I still follow that law, my heart is not in it therefor why am I doing it.

But again it comes back to what is said is of two of the most greatest commandments a, "To love one another, and to love God."

This is one of the reasons why the Law is weak and useless. One CAN obey the letter of the Law and still have a wicked heart.

The New Covenant is superior because it CHANGES the heart of the believer. They don't want to sin not because there is a Law that restrains them, but because Christ and His love in them restrains them. The renewing of our minds takes a lifetime, but sinning becomes less and less in the life of a Spirit-led believer.

The law is often times described as something that is really hard to follow (I use to think this), but it's not. It's a lot more simple than what it sounds.

Cool. Are you headed for Jerusalem for the Spring and Fall Feasts?

I hear it's lovely this time of year!

Do you comprehend what you are claiming here?

No, you are 'following' a very watered-down version of the Law, a law created in the minds of men, not as it is written in God's Word.

Now if someone out of nowhere decided to just jump in and follow it, it would become stressful.
Becoming Torah observant took patience and time. I didn't just jump into and say, "HERE WE GO!"
I started off with the little small things. Over a period of time it got to a point where it was just a life style and there were no burdens in it, because I could see Yeshua in it all.

To follow the law without Yeshua in it is also the same as just throwing it out the window. Yeshua is the law, He wrote it in our minds and on our hearts as a new covenant, so in that being said it's something that is in/on my heart and my mind.

1. To follow the Law on this side of the Cross is to deny the Work and High Priesthood of Christ
2. Yeshua is NOT the Law. That is heresy. Christ Jesus is God incarnate, not a written code incarnate.
   
   John 1:17 says, [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
   
   The Law and Christ are clearly two different entities.

King David, a man after God's heart, said he delighted in meditating in the Law day and night.

I'll stop here because I think I'm starting to ramble and get off point.

King David was born under the Law.

On which side of the Cross are believers?


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Actually, it says that you must follow all the Laws. It says nothing about there being no point...

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What it says is that if you show respect to one over another, you are just as guilty as if you commit murder or adultery. Breaking any Law brings the death penalty and unless Christ's sacrifice is claimed and His blood covers this transgression, you receive eternal death...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So we're back to following all of the Law (and it is a single entity, a whole that cannot be dissected to conform to one's perceived abilities to 'keep').

That means sacrifices and executions for violations. If you're not doing those things, you're not keeping the Law as it was given.

And Christ magnified the Law, just as you say, to include the intent of the heart.

Christ's Blood does not 'cover' sins; Christ's blood cleanses all sin - makes it 'all gone' forever. We don't 'claim' the Blood of Christ when we sin, our sins are not counted against us because we are IN Christ. It's a permanent position; a gift of Righteousness (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5).

-JGIG

 

[michael56]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments? I'm still trying to figure out how 1 that doesn't make sense, and 2 when did the words of Paul become greater than Yeshua's? Almost every time I quote Yeshua, it's countered with Paul.

Jesus told the disciples there was much he wanted to tell them but couldn't, they could not bear such knowledge for the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them. The Holy Spirit had come upon the Apostles, thus they wrote what they did, to those the Spirit had come upon also
I do not wish to offend here, but if a person refuses to be led of the Holy Spirit into truth, preferring to rely on their own ability to learn through their natural mind, it is obvious to me they will not understand what Paul wrote. They will then feel safe sticking with what can be understood without being led of the indwelling Holy Spirit into truth.
Before you attack me, my post is based on Jesus words in John 16

 

[Karraster]

Acts 20:6 But we sailed away from Philippi after jthe Days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days joined them k[FONT=Segoe UI, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]at Troas, where we stayed seven days.
[/FONT]
Jesus told the Samaritan woman, “the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this place, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father”

[FONT=Segoe UI, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Where does scripture say the Feasts must be observed in Jerusalem? [/FONT] Israel existed as a nation for almost 500 years before the feasts were observed at Jerusalem.

 

[Karraster]

Torah is Hebrew for instructions. The kjv translators translated it as law. (I wonder if that trips people up?)

Also, as I've asked before, anyone want to discuss which commandments are hard? I mean, they're simple really, I fail to see what's the big deal.

 

[JGIG]

Well on the feasts, it's not a blind thing that I do. You can see Yeshua in all the Feasts, and that's what I based following them off of.

So you've traded the Reality for the Shadow.

Why?

Passover: Yeshua is the Passover lamb that covers our sins.
Unleavened bread: Leavening is symbolic with sin, therefor bread without leaven is Yeshua because He is sinless.
First Fruits: Yeshua brought the first fruits into Heaven when He rose again, and also in this all the first fruits of a crop go to Him.
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost): This is the day the God gave Moses the Torah, also it's the day Yeshua/God gave us the Holy Spirit.
Feast of Trumpets: Yeshua is going to return at the blast of a trumpet.
Yom Kippur (Day atoneme/judgement): Yeshua will be the final judge in the end times.
Feast of Tabernacles: We will dwell with Yeshua in His kingdom when He returns.

Try this list:

• Passover - Yeshua is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world.
  How many times did He do it?
  ONCE.
  How did Jesus tell us to remember Him?
  In the Bread, representing HIS Body, and the Wine, representing HIS Blood, not by observing the Passover Feast.
• Unleavened Bread - We rest in the Reality of the Sinless Redeemer, not in the Shadow which points to Him.
• First Fruits - Christ is the First Fruits of the resurrection of the dead. Again, resting in Christ is resting in the Reality; observing the Feast is a dead work, pointing to something already accomplished by Christ. We are to remember the fulfillment, not observe the Shadow.
• Feast of Weeks/Pentecost - At the giving of the Law, 3000 perished. At the giving of the Spirit, 3000 were given Eternal Life. Which one is more appropriate to celebrate???
• Feasts of Trumpets - Trumpets will sound at Christ's second coming. He was faithful to come the first time; He will be faithful to come the second time. We are to focus on Him, not on the shadow that points to Him.
• Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement - A done deal. Jesus completed the permanent propitiation for our sins (an important distinction from atonement, which was temporary). Again, we are to celebrate the Reality which is in Christ, not the shadow.
• Feast of Tabernacles - God with us - IN CHRIST. This is a current Reality, not a future event. Rest in the Reality.

So if I kept these feast without that view on them, then yes I can see where you are coming.

The fact is that you're observing the shadows that pointed to Christ instead of resting in the Reality that is Christ. Hebrews calls that dead works.

-JGIG

 

[crossnote]

"Law Keeping" as prescribed under the Levitical system is a theological mirage.
As you walk through that desert be asking youselves, "Where are the Priests to perform the Sacrifices?" "Where is the Temple that I may go and keep the Feasts as prescribed?", "Where is the Ark of the Covenant?", "Which animals should I offer?". Remember this was all prescribed in the Levitical Law.
As you are working through that desert mirage, you might also ask one more question, "Which way to Living Water?"

 

[michael56]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments? I'm still trying to figure out how 1 that doesn't make sense, and 2 when did the words of Paul become greater than Yeshua's? Almost every time I quote Yeshua, it's countered with Paul.

This sums up the problem perfectly.

You have two options. Either you stress all of Christ's literal commands are obeyed, or you take the view-as Paul undoubtedly did that Christ's commands can be summed up as Love God and love your neighbour, hence:

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

Now people who say Paul contradicted Jesus, or Jesus words take preference should ask themselves. ''Do I obey all of Christ's literal commands myself? If they do not, their Christianity is to put it mildly weak, for they are saying one thing in their head but living out another entirely.
It would be better to accept the words of the person who wrote half the books of the NT, rather than saying Jesus words take preference. For Paul showed us the way to live according to the heart of the teaching of Christ. If you refuse to accept his words, you most certainly will not live according to the teaching of Christ.

 

[JGIG]

ok, so back to this idea,

in my experience, it's not to hard to find agreement on the theory of law keeping... the differences come in how to put it into practice...

for example, what would be some non-legalistic ways to practice not cutting the edges of your beard, and putting tassels on your clothes?

Keeping the Law is not a matter of doing it legalistically or not legalistically.

The Law itself requires COMPLETE obedience, 100% of the time:

Exodus 23:13
13 “Be careful to do everything I have said to you.

Deuteronomy 5:28-33
28 The Lord heard you when you spoke to me and the Lord said to me, “I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. 29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

30 “Go, tell them to return to their tents. 31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.”

32 So be careful to do what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.

Deuteronomy 8:1
Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 12:27-28
27 Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the Lord your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the Lord your God, but you may eat the meat. 28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the Lord your God.

Jeremiah 7:21-26
21 “‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.’

Joshua 1:6-9
6 “Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous.Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”
​

There is no ambiguity about what the Law requires according to the Law as it is written.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

As a Torah observer I'll be honost, for the years of observance I still do not know what the "cutting the edges of the beard" means. So I just keep a nice simple beard, and I don't chastise people who don't grow them. So I don't what a legalistic way of following that would be.

If you read the verse on the tassels they are basically a reminder of the commandments, kind of like if someone wore a WWJD bracelet.

Again with both of these, I'm not fully sure what a legalistic idea on them would be other than if someone asks about them if you chastise them for it. People ask me about my tassels all the time, and I tell them what they are and leave it at that. There have been times where the tassel has lead to discussion in my faith which lead to me leading someone to Christ.

Now did I tell this person to go out and put tassels on?
No.
I told them that there needs to be the acceptance of Yeshua in their heart, wearing the tassels does not give you salvation nor does it make them better.
I tell them to study the word.
Now if that person goes to a point where they think wearing tassels is something they want to do, so be it.
If not, well then ok. It's not my call.
I'm not going to force it on someone.

Also do I wear them so people will ask what they are?
No, I wear them because it says in Numbers 15:37-41, "[SUP]37 [/SUP]Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [SUP]38 [/SUP]“Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, [SUP]40 [/SUP]and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God. [SUP]41 [/SUP]I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the Lord your God.”

So wearing the tassels is more of a reminder of what the Lord did for me/us in both physical Egypt and spiritual Egypt, and a reminder of the commandments that were given and the Holy Spirit that was given.

It means nothing more than that.

Tzit Tzit For the Believer In Christ?
​

You are free to wear them or not; but they are not required by the believer in Christ.

Again, if you are going to 'keep' a part of the Law, you must keep it ALL, or you keep NONE of it.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I'm confused on what you would be refrencing on?

Love sums up the majority of the commandments. Not all of them. These are just appointed times that we come together and observe as reminders of what happenned/what is to happen. The fact that Yeshua is in them is what makes it correct. I don't once Yeshua condemn doing this, at all.

I'll take the word of Yeshua over the word of Paul.
Not saying Paul is a bad guy or anything, he has a lot of valid points, but Paul is not God nor is he Yeshua.
Not saying I don't read Paul or try to understand him, I'm just saying I base my walk off of what Yeshua has stated.

On which side of the Cross did Jesus preach the Law?

Christ preached Law to those born under the Law. Christ prophesied the New Covenant

On which side of the Cross did Paul preach that Christ is the end of the Law?

Do you doubt that Paul's letters are the inspired Word of God?

Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?
​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Like I said, I do not believe Paul was speaking on the feast in Torah (again this is my belief on it). More so either the the new comers to Christ were returning to pagan beliefs and using them the glorify God, or the Church may have been teaching that it's ok to take a pagan belief and glorify God through it (remember these letters Paul is writing, some are to the new comers, and some are to the church that is teaching). So I believe it could have gone both ways on that.

Now do I believe we are still to observe these feast, yes I do. Am I going to make that my main point of salvation, no. Because salvations isn't in the feasts. But I do believe that are still suppose to be in observance.

Do you observe/celebrate Pentecost? If you do, you are observing a feast. Same with Passover. It doesn't hurt to celebrate them, and I believe there is no wrong in them, unless you turn them into something that they are not meant to be.

Again I'm not going to tell you, "You have to do this." I'm just stating what I believe.

What do you believe happens if you don't observe the Feasts you believe you are still to observe?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

"Law keepers" do make good attempts to follow all aspects of the Law, just as the Messiah walked.

Really?

Are you heading to Jerusalem for the Spring Feasts?

You'll be taking your sacrifice there?

Returning again for the Fall Feasts?

In that sense, it's probably better to think of them as "Messiah followers" instead of "Law keepers." It doesn't happen overnight though, it's a process of being reformed in the Messiah with regards to God's will.

The Bible says that those in Christ have died to the Law in order that they may be joined to Christ so that they may bear fruit unto God.

If you're 'joining' with the Law while in Christ, you're committing spiritual adultery.

And if a "Law keeper" isn't keeping some particular aspect of the Law which one thinks is necessary for consistency in their walk, then one should bring it up to them out of genuineness and not a "gotcha" attitude (not saying that's what you are doing now). Certain ones of the Pharisees were "gotcha" sorta people when they confronted the Messiah, as with the case of the woman in adultery. That's not how we should be toward each other. And you'll hopefully get a good reason from the person about why they don't keep that particular aspect of the Law, which is sometimes rooted in the accuser's misunderstanding of the command or its applicability, if not the "Law keeper" not being to that point in their walk yet.

You're preaching an extremely watered down version of the Law to make it seem 'keepable' by picking and choosing the laws that are easy to obey. The Pharisees also watered down the Law, but by adding to it to make it seem like it could be kept. Both methods result in a law of man's creation, which actually makes one focus on self rather than on Christ.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

They are all a witness to what God has done and what the Messiah has done/will do. In that sense, keeping them is a very faithful serving of others in love. Also, the Messiah said the greatest command is to love God, the second is to love the neighbor. Keeping the feasts is done also out of love for God because He said to do them. They are His. They're not "Jewish." We should be careful how we tend to (or in popular Christianity, ignore) the things that belong to and are from the Almighty.

No, they are a shadow of what was to come.

The Apostles were the witnesses to the Work of Christ, and it is clear from the New Covenant writings that those in Christ are not bound in any way to Old Covenant Law.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

If this is true, which there seems to be enough scholarly consensus around it or similar claims, then this is a good example of why God says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Some of His children are reading these verses, filling in their own understanding and not knowing the actual truth of the matter, and then using them as part of an argument to undermine keeping God's will as expressed in His commands.

I think it's really simple on beards and trimmings: these verses are about doing these things in a particular way with respect to pagan deities. God doesn't want His children to do that, the Messiah didn't do it, we shouldn't do it.

Law was given to increase sinning:

Romans 5:20
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.​

Law stirs up sinning:

Romans 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. ​

Law produces death:

Romans 7:9-11
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me. ​

Law produces fruit unto death:

Romans 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.​

Law is the power of sin:

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
​

Tell us again how the Law is God's will for those IN CHRIST expressed in His commands?

No, God's commands after the Cross are these:

Believe in the One He has sent and love one another (Jn. 6:28-29, 1 John 3:23-24).

The New Covenant is NOT LIKE the Old. God said He'd write His lawS on our hearts (see 1 Jn. 3:23-24), not The Law (single, comprehensive system of law) on our hearts.

Believe in Christ; receive eternal life.
Love one another; you have fulfilled the requirements of God.

And even the love comes from Him as Fruit of the Spirit - and if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

What does the rest of Romans 7 say though?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+7&version=NIV;KJV;ESV