Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[eternally-gratefull]

This sums up the problem perfectly.

You have two options. Either you stress all of Christ's literal commands are obeyed, or you take the view-as Paul undoubtedly did that Christ's commands can be summed up as Love God and love your neighbour, hence:

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

Now people who say Paul contradicted Jesus, or Jesus words take preference should ask themselves. ''Do I obey all of Christ's literal commands myself? If they do not, their Christianity is to put it mildly weak, for they are saying one thing in their head but living out another entirely.
It would be better to accept the words of the person who wrote half the books of the NT, rather than saying Jesus words take preference. For Paul showed us the way to live according to the heart of the teaching of Christ. If you refuse to accept his words, you most certainly will not live according to the teaching of Christ.

Amen bro.

If we look at the lived of paul and Christ we have shining examples of how the law of love works. Christ gave the full example. Paul modeled that example. we should model not only the example. but the one who modeled that example. And share that with others. so they to can learn to follow that example.

How else could paul consider being shiprecked, stoned and left for dead, starvation, mere blindness, and everything he suffered a momentary light affliction.

Because his focus was not on some law or himself. it was on others. The people he loved. That God christ through the cross. and Got paul through all he suffered.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say the commandments (law?) is the enemy. That is the heart of our disagreement.

Where have I said there is no new priesthood? I haven't.

Why is following Messiah and His commandments at odds with each other? They aren't.

following the law to do Gods will is at odds.

Jesus made this clear. Love is the way, Not lawkeeping.

Paul made it clear. I fear, after coming out of paganism, you are returing again to the yoke of feasts, and holidays, and traditions. Have I labored in vein?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So how do those fare who don't even attempt to keep the Law?

Oh wait, I think I know...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I love ya john, but why do you keep bringing this verse up?

This verse is about people trying to keep some law to be saved, God made it clear. he NEVER KNEW THEM (they were never saved).

This is not about true people in Christ not keeping the law.

 

[john832]

I love ya john, but why do you keep bringing this verse up?

This verse is about people trying to keep some law to be saved, God made it clear. he NEVER KNEW THEM (they were never saved).

This is not about true people in Christ not keeping the law.

I think it is EG my friend. I think Christ is warning against a lawless attitude that infects the elect...

Mat 24:11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

This is how I see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it is EG my friend. I think Christ is warning against a lawless attitude that infects the elect...

Mat 24:11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

This is how I see it.

I am sorry, but to me that does not make sense.

they are doing works. thus they are following Gods commands, not being lawless

Yet God said he never knew them.

so it can not be what your thinking.

these are not licentious people. a licentious person can not go to God and declare all the great works he did, he has no great works to profess. he was lawless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

to add, every one of us is a sinner, we have all fallen short of the glory of God.

so when jesus says, "you who practice lawlessness", apart from the grace of God and the new birth, he can say that about every one of us. because we all have certain sins we struggle with, be it pride, or envy, or coveteousness. we all have weeknesses that could cause God to say those very words to us.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

to add, every one of us is a sinner, we have all fallen short of the glory of God.

so when jesus says, "you who practice lawlessness", apart from the grace of God and the new birth, he can say that about every one of us. because we all have certain sins we struggle with, be it pride, or envy, or coveteousness. we all have weeknesses that could cause God to say those very words to us.

How true it is, but I still believe this doesn't give us licence to do what we want to

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I think it is EG my friend. I think Christ is warning against a lawless attitude that infects the elect...

Mat 24:11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

This is how I see it.

Well, John, I really wish you would reconsider, because I don't believe you see Matthew 7:22, 23 correctly.

Jesus refers in these verses to the "Pharisaical Christians." In first-century Israel, the Pharisees were in the best position to actually live out the Law they knew so well, but they only got the letter of it, not the spirit.

A "Pharisaical Christians" is much the same, only in the context of the new covenant rather than the old. They have tremendous head knowledge, they know the words, but they do not have the Spirit. They have never transferred that head knowledge 18" downward and taken it into the heart -- the human spirit, that is -- for salvation.

They are not the elect. A better description of them is "the tares."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How true it is, but I still believe this doesn't give us licence to do what we want to

No, it does not. Sin would still bring us heartache and despair, which is what God wants us to be free from. As paul said, all things are lawfull (they can not condemn me) but not everything is profitable (Alot of things can HURT ME, even though I THINK they may help me)

 

[john832]

Well, John, I really wish you would reconsider, because I don't believe you see Matthew 7:22, 23 correctly.

Jesus refers in these verses to the "Pharisaical Christians." In first-century Israel, the Pharisees were in the best position to actually live out the Law they knew so well, but they only got the letter of it, not the spirit.

A "Pharisaical Christians" is much the same, only in the context of the new covenant rather than the old. They have tremendous head knowledge, they know the words, but they do not have the Spirit. They have never transferred that head knowledge 18" downward and taken it into the heart -- the human spirit, that is -- for salvation.

They are not the elect. A better description of them is "the tares."

I don't think your assessment is correct here. Mat 7 is a continuation of the Sermon on the Mount, that teaching is comprised of Mat 5, 6 and 7. Notice to whom this teaching is directed...

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
Mat 5:2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

He was teaching His disciples and there is no break in chapters 5, 6 and 7, they are a continuous teaching.

 

[Dan_473]

some focus is not on keeping the law. But about loving and serving others.

is not that what allows us to keep the law in the first place? Not following some guidelines that is written on some scroll or book?

Did not mean that to sound mocking if it did, I am sorry, Just asking a serious question.

sounds good! if doing the things in the law comes down to looking for a spiritual meaning, then I'm fully cool with that...

(btw, I do think studying the law in order to gain wisdom is a good idea...)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sounds good! if doing the things in the law comes down to looking for a spiritual meaning, then I'm fully cool with that...

(btw, I do think studying the law in order to gain wisdom is a good idea...)

I would never propose anyone not study the OT. Our foundation that keeps us is layed out in the OT

 

[Dan_473]

But Yeshua (being God, which means He's also the one who gave the Torah/Law to Moses) said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." At this point in history the only thing He could have been reffering to is the Torah.

yes... I think it's easy to find agreement on the theory of law-keeping... it's the practice where people start to part direction...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think your assessment is correct here. Mat 7 is a continuation of the Sermon on the Mount, that teaching is comprised of Mat 5, 6 and 7. Notice to whom this teaching is directed...

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
Mat 5:2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

He was teaching His disciples and there is no break in chapters 5, 6 and 7, they are a continuous teaching.

I will have to side with you here.

yet they still did works, for that is what they based Jesus being their lord off off.

Jesus said depart for I never knew you.

He is speaking of people who attempt to be saved by good deeds, not those who are licentious, who have no works.

 

[john832]

I will have to side with you here.

yet they still did works, for that is what they based Jesus being their lord off off.

Jesus said depart for I never knew you.

He is speaking of people who attempt to be saved by good deeds, not those who are licentious, who have no works.

Aw EG my friend, we are not taking sides here, we are just searching for truth.

 

[crossnote]

I have to giggle at JGIGgle's scorched earth policy. She comes thru here every few months, burns out the legalistic chaff and moves on. Yet some are die hards in holding on to their chaff.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to giggle at JGIGgle's scorched earth policy. She comes thru here every few months, burns out the legalistic chaff and moves on. Yet some are die hards in holding on to their chaff.

thats funny, I did not notice that. she comes in, drops a few incendary bombs to clean the place up. then walks away..lol.. so funny, but so true,,

 

[Dan_473]

No you don't sound mocking.

I was kind of using the WWJD bracelet as a metaphore. But yeah following Torah non-legalistically is pretty simple in that sense.

well, and pretty much every christians's doing it, yes?

(or at the time in synagogue, churches didn't come around til a few centuries later).

I'm pretty sure there were churches in Paul's day...

 

[Dan_473]

"Law keepers" do make good attempts to follow all aspects of the Law, just as the Messiah walked. In that sense, it's probably better to think of them as "Messiah followers" instead of "Law keepers." It doesn't happen overnight though, it's a process of being reformed in the Messiah with regards to God's will. And if a "Law keeper" isn't keeping some particular aspect of the Law which one thinks is necessary for consistency in their walk, then one should bring it up to them out of genuineness and not a "gotcha" attitude (not saying that's what you are doing now). Certain ones of the Pharisees were "gotcha" sorta people when they confronted the Messiah, as with the case of the woman in adultery. That's not how we should be toward each other. And you'll hopefully get a good reason from the person about why they don't keep that particular aspect of the Law, which is sometimes rooted in the accuser's misunderstanding of the command or its applicability, if not the "Law keeper" not being to that point in their walk yet.

do you try to do what the text says, or more of a looser approach? like beard cutting, wearing tassels... what's your approach to stuff like this?...

 

[Dan_473]

Keeping the Law is not a matter of doing it legalistically or not legalistically.

The Law itself requires COMPLETE obedience, 100% of the time:

Exodus 23:13
13 “Be careful to do everything I have said to you.

Deuteronomy 5:28-33
28 The Lord heard you when you spoke to me and the Lord said to me, “I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. 29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

30 “Go, tell them to return to their tents. 31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.”

32 So be careful to do what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.

Deuteronomy 8:1
Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 12:27-28
27 Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the Lord your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the Lord your God, but you may eat the meat. 28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the Lord your God.

Jeremiah 7:21-26
21 “‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.’

Joshua 1:6-9
6 “Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous.Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”
​

There is no ambiguity about what the Law requires according to the Law as it is written.

-JGIG

well, I agree. and so I was very surprised when first coming here to cc and finding many people who attempt to follow the law...

but every law-follower I've met here also has (imo) a very loose approach...