Creflo Dollar's Jet

[FancyNancy]

You posted Bible verses we both agree on, but have not answered the verse in question. Either you are a sinner in need of the saving grace of Christ, or you are saying that Christ lied and that the Bible is false when it states ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Hey, if you insist on being a sinner, then have at it. My heavenly Father calls me His child, redeemed and righteous.

Few Christians truly understand that righteousness is a gift from God and many still are attempting to attain to righteousness through their own performance. they have a sense of acceptance by God that is based on human effort, but then they always feel that they don’t measure up---hence the self-designation of "sinner". That comes with the plague of feeling spiritually dry, burned out, guilty and condemned.

But Jesus saves sinners by giving them grace. By His death on the cross, His gift of righteousness is imputed to ALL who believe in Him, so now, when come to the understanding that righteousness is a gift, we take on confidence---because we know that it is based on His performance instead of ours. We become eternally thankful because we received what we did not deserve! What results is us living a life of worship and thanksgiving and singing of the amazing grace of our Savior!

Romans 3:21-26
But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. [SUP]22 [/SUP]We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.


2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

It is impossible for one who has yet to experience the renewed mind in Christ to comprehend this verse. There are many churches today that actually teach people to see themselves as "poor sinners", but this is NOT how the Lord sees us who have received salvation! God sees us in Jesus! We indeed are the righteousness of God in Christ---hidden with Christ in God!

Colossians 3:3
For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God.

When we truly believe how our Father sees us, and when we start seeing ourselves in the same way, our paradigm switches! Our faith is energized. We walk in the power of His Spirit, we have new desires from God, and we experience empowerment from Him.

 

[FancyNancy]

By saying you arent a sinner you no longer are repentant of your sins if you ever were. In order to be repentant you must acknowledge you are a sinner, that you sin and ask for forgiveness of those sins.

More lack of scriptural understanding, Tankman.

When a believer sins, he knows it, because Holy Spirit reveals it. We are responsible to God in our relationship with Him to confess it and receive His affirmation that yes, we are His forgiven children, and He says to us in love, "OK, let's try this again and we'll do it better next time!" He's a good God!

 

[PeterJens]

When a Christian starts believing that they are the righteousness of Christ, they will start to live righteously.

Guys. Let me break this down. A christian is a follower of Jesus, who feels condemned by their failure to not sin.
If they realise they are no longer condemned they will no longer sin. So the only problem with sin is not temptation or hurt or a lack of love but condemnation.

So a non-christian who has no condemnation or conviction of sin does not sin because they do not know what sin is.

And because a christian now knows he is under grace, he will no longer have desires of the carnal nature.
Now the question is does this actually work. It appears not. So what is gained. Well a denial that sin is worthy of repenting of, just accepting it can be ignored. Now any group who censors self awareness, hypocracy is the agenda.
Hypocracy is only a goal because the leaders are hypocrites and desire people to censor themselves.

I have seen this from all groups who want to create dictatorships, deny their failures and generate central control.
All language has to have a real power to it, or truth. Now people do respond to love, the cross, brokenness, seeing Jesus pour out His life as an offering of love to us, saying accept me and learn from me.

Walking in Jesus's righteousness, is a great idea, but you have to be powered by something. Now I am sure you feel it is the Holy Spirit like a mystical energy will make you walk perfectly. But if that was so, all christians would be perfect already.

I would suggest to all of you it is in knowing Jesus and His love, when compared to our love, that transforms us, daily, knowing how to reach out to others, being healed of hurts from our past and changing how we react. But watching sin or failure, obeying rules, does not work, but you also need to stay aware of what sin is, and how or why we fail.

What is obvious is the reality of life is being removed replaced here by mysticism. There is not the language of the cross, of love and victory, but language that is not biblical. But I suggest whatever I say does not matter because you know you are right, because this conviction came before you understood, so whatever they teach you must be true.

But thankyou for the sharing, because it helps us understand who you are.

 

[ladylynn]

By saying you arent a sinner you no longer are repentant of your sins if you ever were. In order to be repentant you must acknowledge you are a sinner, that you sin and ask for forgiveness of those sins.

Tankman131
The reason we sin when we come into this world is we were born sinners. It's what we do. I sinned because I was a sinner. I was not a sinner because I sinned. I was a sinner before I even did anything., that was my identity in Adam. Now I am in Christ. Born again.,My identity is totally different.

Now, we are no longer under law we are under grace. We are now sons and daughters of the Most High God. Our sins have been forgiven completely under the new covenant.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west So far has He removed our transgressions from us. The promise of this was fulfilled in Christ.

Now sin is not what identifies us any longer. Sin is something we do at times., righteous is what we ARE and we sin less and less as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds and behold Jesus. As we go through that process, we claim the righteousness of Christ as ours. Because it was a gift. We can't earn our righteous standing before God. Jesus did that for us.

 

[PeterJens]

When we truly believe how our Father sees us, and when we start seeing ourselves in the same way, our paradigm switches! Our faith is energized. We walk in the power of His Spirit, we have new desires from God, and we experience empowerment from Him.

This is a big claim. Imputed righteousness overcomes sin. Now the traditional response is Pauls, I am the worst of sinners, not worthy of anything, yet Jesus forgave me, so I owe a great dept. Paul encouraged the church to walk in holiness, to walk in humbleness, love, patience, kindness, self control. I have experienced love transform me, and make me whole, help me overcome sin, and walk in righteousness.

So if you think you are righteous, you are empowered. But I already know I am righteous in the cross, my faith has always been energised, I have always walked in the power of His Spirit, so there is nothing new here.

But you feel it justifies everything else as special, and your group as the liberators, rather than just another enthusiastic group. The problem is still WOF and latter rain, but sadly you think if we are filled with the Holy Spirit your style we will just see we are gods. Nope, not happening.

 

[Chica]

People want to try an apply the things that belonged to Israel to the Church. Tithing is one of them and to support this they use Malachi 3:10 to support their beliefs.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there maybe meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to recieve it. Malachi 3:10

Simply idiotic since this was meant for the nation of Israel.

 

[Tankman131]

Tankman131
The reason we sin when we come into this world is we were born sinners. It's what we do. I sinned because I was a sinner. I was not a sinner because I sinned. I was a sinner before I even did anything., that was my identity in Adam. Now I am in Christ. Born again.,My identity is totally different.

Now, we are no longer under law we are under grace. We are now sons and daughters of the Most High God. Our sins have been forgiven completely under the new covenant.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west So far has He removed our transgressions from us. The promise of this was fulfilled in Christ.

Now sin is not what identifies us any longer. Sin is something we do at times., righteous is what we ARE and we sin less and less as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds and behold Jesus. As we go through that process, we claim the righteousness of Christ as ours. Because it was a gift. We can't earn our righteous standing before God. Jesus did that for us.

Wow... Just wow.

We have our identity as image bearers of God.
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

The sins of adam brought sin into the world. Man began to have a sin-nature. This did not supplant the identity as imago dei.
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

By sinning, and through our sin nature, we are sinners. Jesus is working to change us, a work in progress. Already and not yet. Sanctification is a three-stage process – past, present, and future. The first stage occurs at the beginning of our Christian lives. It is an initial moral change, a break from the power and love of sin. It is the point at which believers can count themselves “dead to sin but alive to God” (Romans 6:11). Once sanctification has begun, we are no longer under sin’s dominion (Romans 6:14). There is a reorientation of desires, and we develop a love of righteousness. Paul calls it “slavery to righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).

The second stage of sanctification requires a lifetime to complete. As we grow in grace, we are gradually – but steadily – changing to be more like Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:18). This occurs in a process of daily spiritual renewal (Colossians 3:10). The apostle Paul himself was being sanctified even as he ministered to others. Paul claimed that he had not reached perfection, but that he “pressed on” to attain everything Christ desired for him (Philippians 3:12).

The third and final stage of sanctification occurs in the future. When believers die, their spirits go to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27), we must be made perfect at that point. The sanctification of the whole person—body, soul, and spirit—will finally be complete when the Lord Jesus returns and we receive glorified bodies (Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49).
Read more: What is progressive sanctification?

 

[Tankman131]

I dont think im masochistic enough to see how scripture will be twisted to attempt to support this narcissistic false doctrine.

its painful enough to see how deeply the wolves have deceived.

 

[ladylynn]

Guys. Let me break this down. A christian is a follower of Jesus, who feels condemned by their failure to not sin.
If they realise they are no longer condemned they will no longer sin. So the only problem with sin is not temptation or hurt or a lack of love but condemnation.

So a non-christian who has no condemnation or conviction of sin does not sin because they do not know what sin is.

And because a christian now knows he is under grace, he will no longer have desires of the carnal nature.
Now the question is does this actually work. It appears not. So what is gained. Well a denial that sin is worthy of repenting of, just accepting it can be ignored. Now any group who censors self awareness, hypocracy is the agenda.
Hypocracy is only a goal because the leaders are hypocrites and desire people to censor themselves.

I have seen this from all groups who want to create dictatorships, deny their failures and generate central control.
All language has to have a real power to it, or truth. Now people do respond to love, the cross, brokenness, seeing Jesus pour out His life as an offering of love to us, saying accept me and learn from me.

Walking in Jesus's righteousness, is a great idea, but you have to be powered by something. Now I am sure you feel it is the Holy Spirit like a mystical energy will make you walk perfectly. But if that was so, all christians would be perfect already.

I would suggest to all of you it is in knowing Jesus and His love, when compared to our love, that transforms us, daily, knowing how to reach out to others, being healed of hurts from our past and changing how we react. But watching sin or failure, obeying rules, does not work, but you also need to stay aware of what sin is, and how or why we fail.

What is obvious is the reality of life is being removed replaced here by mysticism. There is not the language of the cross, of love and victory, but language that is not biblical. But I suggest whatever I say does not matter because you know you are right, because this conviction came before you understood, so whatever they teach you must be true.

But thankyou for the sharing, because it helps us understand who you are.

You have missed what I said all together and filled in what you think I said PeterJens., I shall try again. Try not to have a knee jerk reaction.

I never said we do not sin., The bible says WHEN we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father... Our sin debt was fully dealt with on the cross. We can now go boldly to the throne of grace as sons and daughters.

All our sins past., present and future have been forgiven. There is no timeline of God's forgiveness of our sins. You seem to be saying that the forgiveness you received spans only from the day you were born to the day you became a Christian. From that point onwards,
do you think that you need to tread very carefully in case you lose your salvation, forgiveness and position in Christ?
Do you know that is not biblical? Col. 2:13 says clearly that we have been forgive ALL our sins.

AND YOU BEING DEAD IN YOUR TRESPASSES AND THE UNCIRCUMCISION OF YOUR FLESH, HE HAS MADE ALIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.


The high priests in the old covenant had to offer sacrifices for sins daily. Jesus, our perfect High Priest, "did once for all when He offered up Himself." On the cross, He took upon Himself all the sins that you will commit in your lifetime, and once for all paid the full price for all your sins.

He does not need to be crucified again for your future sins. In fact, all your sins were in the future when He died on the cross. What a Salvation!!!

 

[PeterJens]

When a christian abandons the power of love to transform the soul, they loose everything.

If I wanted testimony of the failure of the "Spirit" movement, it is this.
The lack of softness in our hearts is the cause of sin. If we saw the hurt around us, we would avoid sin and work towards righteousness. But what do these preachers say. Wealth and joy are not problems, rejoice in everything, and search for even more blessing because you deserve it, it is your right. The more you claim the more you extend His kingdom.

Rather than address the problem, talk about how we love those we are among, it is about success and domination.
This is the opposite of Gods purpose, it is attempting to empower people who sin to have more influence, to spread further their control and condemnation of those who seek a life of love and righteousness, as demonstrated here.

Now we stand open mouthed, not knowing who these people are, and where they came from. They are like aliens, from another planet. They were once one of us, but have gone out and changed. How do we know that?

Because they condemn the very heart of the gospel, the bowing to a righteous, holy and graceful God, and no longer desire to seek His will. As Jesus showed us,

Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.
Luke 22:42

We are called to love each other as Christ loved us.

Love God
Love your neighbour
Love your enemy
Love each other

How, through the love Jesus planted in us through the cross. If you meet a christian who says I cannot do this, you know that love has not been planted yet.

I am learning many "christians" cannot accept this basic spiritual law, even when they are commanded to do it by the Lord, because love is not present or is confined, they are at a loss to know the meaning of these words.

This is the true empowerment of God, through His Holy Spirit. If a christian feels I am the enemy saying this, then I have to say they have a serious spiritual dilemma within.

 

[PeterJens]

You have missed what I said

I have missed nothing. I am not talking theory or theology here, but plain simple life experience.
There are only two ways to change people.
1. A changed character or behaviour pattern
2. A mystical zapping which resets the individual

I do not see the Lord doing mystical zapping so all you have left is a changed character. But your theory around this is theology. Sorry does not work.

So that is the basic dilemma, if people stay the same but the words change it is nothing but shifting chairs on a sinking ship. Worse still if you end up condemning those who are following Jesus faithfully, you have just become the enemy.

 

[ladylynn]

I have missed nothing. I am not talking theory or theology here, but plain simple life experience.
There are only two ways to change people.
1. A changed character or behaviour pattern
2. A mystical zapping which resets the individual

I do not see the Lord doing mystical zapping so all you have left is a changed character. But your theory around this is theology. Sorry does not work.

So that is the basic dilemma, if people stay the same but the words change it is nothing but shifting chairs on a sinking ship. Worse still if you end up condemning those who are following Jesus faithfully, you have just become the enemy.

Well PeterJens, I gave you plenty of Scripture to back up what was said. No theories just the Bible truth taken. I don't depend on my experiences., it's the Bible that is the final authority. Unless we abide in Him, we can do nothing. On our own we are helpless. With Him we can do all things ... I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me... He changes us, we do not change in our own power. I'm happy to say it works! Because Jesus does it.

We are changed from glory to glory , He has made us alive IN Him... It's always about abiding in Him and beholding Him and not ourselves and our moral reformation.

 

[maxwel]

I guess you also require a lesson from scripture. Of course I do sin from time to time, but because I am free in Christ, and all my sins are forgiven, God tells me that no sin is imputed to me because of Jesus!


God sees no sin in His children. The record books of heaven record no iniquity, no transgression, and no sin against God’s elect. God will not impute sin to His saints, or require from us satisfaction because our sins were imputed to Christ, paid for by Christ, and expunged from the book of God’s offended justice by our Saviour’s precious blood. Scripture bears this out.

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:33-34
Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

2 Corinthians 5:19-21
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

So you still sin?

 

[FancyNancy]

Guys. Let me break this down. A christian is a follower of Jesus, who feels condemned by their failure to not sin.
If they realise they are no longer condemned they will no longer sin. So the only problem with sin is not temptation or hurt or a lack of love but condemnation.

So a non-christian who has no condemnation or conviction of sin does not sin because they do not know what sin is.

And because a christian now knows he is under grace, he will no longer have desires of the carnal nature.
Now the question is does this actually work. It appears not. So what is gained. Well a denial that sin is worthy of repenting of, just accepting it can be ignored. Now any group who censors self awareness, hypocracy is the agenda.
Hypocracy is only a goal because the leaders are hypocrites and desire people to censor themselves.

I have seen this from all groups who want to create dictatorships, deny their failures and generate central control.
All language has to have a real power to it, or truth. Now people do respond to love, the cross, brokenness, seeing Jesus pour out His life as an offering of love to us, saying accept me and learn from me.

Walking in Jesus's righteousness, is a great idea, but you have to be powered by something. Now I am sure you feel it is the Holy Spirit like a mystical energy will make you walk perfectly. But if that was so, all christians would be perfect already.

I would suggest to all of you it is in knowing Jesus and His love, when compared to our love, that transforms us, daily, knowing how to reach out to others, being healed of hurts from our past and changing how we react. But watching sin or failure, obeying rules, does not work, but you also need to stay aware of what sin is, and how or why we fail.

What is obvious is the reality of life is being removed replaced here by mysticism. There is not the language of the cross, of love and victory, but language that is not biblical. But I suggest whatever I say does not matter because you know you are right, because this conviction came before you understood, so whatever they teach you must be true.

But thankyou for the sharing, because it helps us understand who you are.

What a convoluted mess.

 

[FancyNancy]

This is a big claim. Imputed righteousness overcomes sin. Now the traditional response is Pauls, I am the worst of sinners, not worthy of anything, yet Jesus forgave me, so I owe a great dept. Paul encouraged the church to walk in holiness, to walk in humbleness, love, patience, kindness, self control. I have experienced love transform me, and make me whole, help me overcome sin, and walk in righteousness.

So if you think you are righteous, you are empowered. But I already know I am righteous in the cross, my faith has always been energised, I have always walked in the power of His Spirit, so there is nothing new here.

But you feel it justifies everything else as special, and your group as the liberators, rather than just another enthusiastic group. The problem is still WOF and latter rain, but sadly you think if we are filled with the Holy Spirit your style we will just see we are gods. Nope, not happening.

I don't just think it---I know I am empowered by Holy Spirit because I have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus which wiped away my sin. The bible tells us this. You should understand this.

You and a little cliquey group here are the one railing against groups and putting down people as if they are dirt under your feet. Not very Christ-like, I must say.

 

[FancyNancy]

I dont think im masochistic enough to see how scripture will be twisted to attempt to support this narcissistic false doctrine.

its painful enough to see how deeply the wolves have deceived.

Quite smug in your false apprehension of the word, aren't you?

 

[FancyNancy]

I have missed nothing. I am not talking theory or theology here, but plain simple life experience.
There are only two ways to change people.
1. A changed character or behaviour pattern
2. A mystical zapping which resets the individual

I do not see the Lord doing mystical zapping so all you have left is a changed character. But your theory around this is theology. Sorry does not work.

So that is the basic dilemma, if people stay the same but the words change it is nothing but shifting chairs on a sinking ship. Worse still if you end up condemning those who are following Jesus faithfully, you have just become the enemy.

Wow, you've missed the boat completely.

 

[FancyNancy]

So you still sin?

What a dumb question. Every Christian's old nature still rises up to make himself known---hopefully only on occasion!

 

[VCO]

There are probably a gazillion people who believe they're saved because they went to thus and such church with their family, and/or believe they're good people in the balance. Dust on the Bible? Not a problem.

Do you remember Peter Popoff, in the 80's was exposed as a fraud "WORD of KNOWLEGE", scam Artist? His Word of Knowledge, scam was a tiny fm receiver in his ear, and hidden microphone on his wife as she talked to people in the audience.

Peter Popoff (born July 2, 1946) is a German American televangelist, self-proclaimed prophet and faith healer. He conducts revival meetings and once hosted a national television program. He initially rose to prominence in the 1980s. In 1986, skeptics James Randiand Alexander (Alec) Jason exposed his method of receiving information about revival attendees from his wife via an in-ear radio receiver.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] Popoff declared bankruptcy in 1987.
Wikipedia

SO WHERE IS POPOFF TODAY?

He is back ON TV as of 2006 wearing lots of black hair dye; and people are back to sending their money to him.

Peter Popoff - Back To His Old Tricks

Scam Everlasting: After 25 Years, Debunked Faith Healer Still Preaching Debt Relief Scam - Business Insider

 

[VCO]

What a dumb question. Every Christian's old nature still rises up to make himself known---hopefully only on occasion!

Like Dr. John MacArthur has said on several occasions, "A Christian is not sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will sin less, and less, and less." I my opinion, anyone who THINKS he or she quit sinning, has a WHOLE LOT MORE TO LEARN ABOUT WHAT GOD CALLS SIN.

Here is the verse that SUNK my ship of pride, when I started to think that I no longer sinned:

Romans 14:23 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith;
and everything that does not come from faith is sin.