Christians vs Jews?

[valiant]

Yep. and probably a million more will die in rejection of Christ before they repent as a nation.

Funny how you agree with the stipulation. yet missed the most important part.

1. When it will happen - [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

2. What will happen - [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; [SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

And this comes after Paul has made clear who ARE Israel, God's olive tree (Jer 11.16). The true Israel in God's eyes consisted of believing Jews, and Gentiles who have been grafted in, plus any Jews who later repent and believe, and it EXCLUDES unbelieving Israel. Thus the ALL ISRAEL who will be saved are the olive tree. That is why he included the fullness of the Gentiles.

All Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel and become part of the true Israel, AS GENTILES HAD ALWAYS BEEN ABLLE TO DO.

3. What Paul and God thinks of Israel worldwide -

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Yes unbelieving Jews worldwide were God's ENEMIES. Who then were beloved for their fathers' sakes? THE ELECTION!!!! Who are the election? See 11.5-7. THE ELECTION HAVE OBTAINED IT BUT THE REST WERE HARDENED. The election are the believing remnant of Israel.

Of course if you want to continue to argue that the church as a group of people has replaced israel as a group of people, then you can keep trying to argue, but you will have to prove it in context of what is being said, Sorry, Context does not support your view in my mind,, nor does Paul

They have NOT replaced Israel, they ARE ISRAEL GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE TREE. I do not have to prove it. PAUL PROVED IT.

Unbelieving Israel are no longer Israel. Some of them can become part of Israel by being grafted in again. But there is no promise to the whole renegade nation.

 

[p_rehbein]

And this comes after Paul has made clear who ARE Israel, God's olive tree (Jer 11.16). The true Israel in God's eyes consisted of believing Jews, and Gentiles who have been grafted in, plus any Jews who later repent and believe, and it EXCLUDES unbelieving Israel. Thus the ALL ISRAEL who will be saved are the olive tree. That is why he included the fullness of the Gentiles.

All Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel and become part of the true Israel, AS GENTILES HAD ALWAYS BEEN ABLLE TO DO.


At least one understands what Paul is saying............

 

[p_rehbein]

How can they be saved through the shed blood apart from Faith? and who is saying they are, or ever have been?

Kayla never said such, but you are saying just that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And this comes after Paul has made clear who ARE Israel, God's olive tree (Jer 11.16). The true Israel in God's eyes consisted of believing Jews, and Gentiles who have been grafted in, plus any Jews who later repent and believe, and it EXCLUDES unbelieving Israel. Thus the ALL ISRAEL who will be saved are the olive tree. That is why he included the fullness of the Gentiles.[/B][/I]

All Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel and become part of the true Israel, AS GENTILES HAD ALWAYS BEEN ABLLE TO DO.

Your problem is with what Paul said. In chapter 11 he separates all jew and gentile. The jews became blind, the gentiles were grafted in (even though there will still many jews who believed, and most gentiles still rejected)

And paul made it clear. unbelieving jews were still part of the elect (not saved) and one day in the future, all Israel would be saved. Because God made a promise to them, HE NEVER MADE TO ANY GENTILE.

Yes unbelieving Jews worldwide were God's ENEMIES. Who then were beloved for their fathers' sakes? THE ELECTION!!!! Who are the election? See 11.5-7. THE ELECTION HAVE OBTAINED IT BUT THE REST WERE HARDENED. The election are the believing remnant of Israel.

Yep. and the elected are those who reject. thats why were are to love them. Because GODS GIFT AND CALLING ARE IRREVOCABLE.

They have NOT replaced Israel, they ARE ISRAEL GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE TREE. I do not have to prove it. PAUL PROVED IT.

Unbelieving Israel are no longer Israel. Some of them can become part of Israel by being grafted in again. But there is no promise to the whole renegade nation.

You prople make this a salvation issue, thats your problem. it is not a salvation issue, never has been a salvation issue, Paul made this clear in romans 9. being a natural jew never saved anyone, never has, never will. Bit God did not make a mistake, His promises to them still stand, He does not go back on his promises. if he does. we are ALL IN TROUBLE. because non of us deserve eternal life.

 

[Utah]

How can they be saved through the shed blood apart from Faith? and who is saying they are, or ever have been?

I'm not sure what Crossnote means in post 16, so I'm asking him for clarification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Kayla never said such, but you are saying just that.

dude, I have said twice now that no jew will be saved apart from faith in Christ, and now your saying I am saying they will be? whether thay have faith or not?

And you wonder why I get so angry with you. you continuously bear false witness against what I am saying!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure what Crossnote means in post 16, so I'm asking him for clarification.

At least your not like some who just assume they know and go on bearing false witness against them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And this comes after Paul has made clear who ARE Israel, God's olive tree (Jer 11.16). The true Israel in God's eyes consisted of believing Jews, and Gentiles who have been grafted in, plus any Jews who later repent and believe, and it EXCLUDES unbelieving Israel. Thus the ALL ISRAEL who will be saved are the olive tree. That is why he included the fullness of the Gentiles.

All Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel and become part of the true Israel, AS GENTILES HAD ALWAYS BEEN ABLLE TO DO.


At least one understands what Paul is saying............

Understands what?

At the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. All Isreal (no gentile is included in this wording) will be saved?

Instead of slamming people for saying things they have never said, we should all praise God he will keep his promises no matter what!

 

[p_rehbein]

[h=1]John
10[/h]
1 .) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

7 .) Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 .) All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 .) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

14 .) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 .) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 .) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 3:5 .) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 .) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

14 .) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 .) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 .) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 .) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 .) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 .) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


Galatians 3:25 .) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(context)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John
10


1 .) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

7 .) Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 .) All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 .) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

14 .) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 .) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 .) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 3:5 .) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 .) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

14 .) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 .) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 .) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 .) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 .) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 .) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


Galatians 3:25 .) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(context)

Thank you for again proving me right.

as a means of salvation. there is no jew or greek.

But as far as specific promises God made to isreal through Abraham Issac and Jacob, Those promises still stand, and have never ceased to stand,

The church did not replace Israel. period!

 

[p_rehbein]

dude, I have said twice now that no jew will be saved apart from faith in Christ, and now your saying I am saying they will be? whether thay have faith or not?

And you wonder why I get so angry with you. you continuously bear false witness against what I am saying!

QUOTE: Understands what?

At the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. All Isreal (no gentile is included in this wording) will be saved?

Instead of slamming people for saying things they have never said, we should all praise God he will keep his promises no matter what!


Don't think I have born any false witness.........nor have I engaged in "double speak."

ALL ISRAEL must needs be also those who died in unbelief. Maybe your anger stems from a misunderstanding of the teachings of Paul? Personally, I don't care if you get angry or not. If it bothers you so much, put me on "Ignore."

Other than that...............(concerning and directed at you ONLY, for there are others here, including Kayla that I have much respect for)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

QUOTE: Understands what?

At the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. All Isreal (no gentile is included in this wording) will be saved?

Instead of slamming people for saying things they have never said, we should all praise God he will keep his promises no matter what!


Don't think I have born any false witness.........nor have I engaged in "double speak."

ALL ISRAEL must needs be also those who died in unbelief. Maybe your anger stems from a misunderstanding of the teachings of Paul? Personally, I don't care if you get angry or not. If it bothers you so much, put me on "Ignore."

Wow. I did not know your reading skills would be so one sided.

How could "all Isreal" be saved unless they repented (which is also the condition for restoration in Lev 26)

So you ASSUME that the All isreal would include those ho die in unbelief? how could this be. when we are tild it will not happen until a specific time in the future. Would it not (if we are thinking logically) mean that everyone alive at THAT TIME will repent, and be saved (as the OT prophets claim they will)

Other than that...............(concerning and directed at you ONLY, for there are others here, including Kayla that I have much respect for)

View attachment 123483

Considering the fact you think All Israel would be all believing or not. and not that in a particular time in human history, a nation who had rejected christ will repent, and ALL will be saved.

You need to not only take your diapers off (they are not big boy panties as you think they are) but you need to at least try to show a little humility.

At least Utah has a question and asked for Crossnote to further explain what he meant, Not like you and just assume you know.

Now you should take your foot out of your mouth, and at least try to show some humility. or is that too much to ask?

 

[PeterJens]

There is a problem with your question.

The Jews are different now than the Jews of Jesus's day because they still had a temple and could offer sacrifices.
After the temple was destroyed they changed their faith, so whether you could say what is Judaism today is what it was back then is a problem.

Like all simple ideas, christians are not one group to be verses the Jews. The people who Jesus called his enemies where the rulers and teachers of the law. Almost all the early deciples where Jews and the idea that you could be a christian without being a jew was alien to them.

What has again confused it more is the idea of two covenants, rather than the first covenant was a shadow of the final fulfillment. All those who reject Jesus reject both the first and second covenants, and deny the law and its intent.

The church is Zion, the people of God, the true inheritence, and we uphold the say critisms of society preached by the prophets of old. Stealing, murder, adultery, corruption, fake making of business deals etc.

 

[p_rehbein]

You continue in your double speak method or responses.............say one thing one time, say another, another time, then say someone else is saying such.

Exhibit 1:

So you ASSUME that the All isreal would include those ho die in unbelief? how could this be. when we are tild it will not happen until a specific time in the future. Would it not (if we are thinking logically) mean that everyone alive at THAT TIME will repent, and be saved (as the OT prophets claim they will)

Exhibit 2:

How could "all Isreal" be saved unless they repented (which is also the condition for restoration in Lev 26)


Exhibit 3:

Yep. and probably a million more will die in rejection of Christ before they repent as a nation.

Funny how you agree with the stipulation. yet missed the most important part.

1. When it will happen - [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

2. What will happen - [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; [SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”



3. What Paul and God thinks of Israel worldwide - [SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Of course if you want to continue to argue that the church as a group of people has replaced israel as a group of people, then you can keep trying to argue, but you will have to prove it in context of what is being said, Sorry, Context does not support your view in my mind,, nor does Paul

The very definition of double speak. You argue against yourself to prove your wisdom and others ignorance. Go ahead, argue against yourself.......let me know who wins......

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

There is no longer such barriers. They have been broken down. They will not be rebuilt.
The Restoration of Christ will harken to what preceded the nation of Israel, and what preceded the Fall.

The Bible distinguish between three groups; Jew, Gentile (Israel) and heathen...

 

[sassylady]

They are chosen because God chose them to produce our Messiah.

Orthodox Jewish people love God and are looking for the Messiah to come, and they do believe it is very soon actually as many Christians do. They just don't believe Jesus has already come.

No Christian should be against the Jewish people. We are the ones who were grafted in to the original branch. If it wasn't for the Jewish people we would not have a Messiah.

 

[p_rehbein]

They are chosen because God chose them to produce our Messiah.

Orthodox Jewish people love God and are looking for the Messiah to come, and they do believe it is very soon actually as many Christians do. They just don't believe Jesus has already come.

No Christian should be against the Jewish people. We are the ones who were grafted in to the original branch. If it wasn't for the Jewish people we would not have a Messiah.

By Jewish people, if you mean those who still reject Christ as Lord and Savior and still try to live under the Law/First Covenant today; I agree. I certainly am not "against" them. In fact, I made clear that they DID NOT kill Christ in my first comment on this thread. Wonder why people did not understand my defense of them?

Now, if you are referring to what Paul considered the "true" Jews, those who believe in and profess the Name of Jesus, I certainly agree again.



And, yes, we were the unnatural branches (well, you guys were/non Jew bloodline) grafted in, and those of the Jew bloodline who believe in and confess Jesus will be grafted in as well. However, this does not deal with those who died in unbelief, or those who will today/tomorrow/or anytime prior to His return die in unbelief/denial of Christ.

 

[Utah]

If it wasn't for the Jewish people we would not have a Messiah.

Please elaborate.

 

[p_rehbein]

The Bible distinguish between three groups; Jew, Gentile (Israel) and heathen...

when speaking of those who have not yet accepted Jesus Christ? For once they have, then...........

Galatians 3:25 .) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Alextor]

Paul states in Romans 11 “God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” (Please note that it is God who has done this.)

Paul goes on to say in the same chapter, “I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!”

Why did our Father do this?

“For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”
Romans 11.