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A
I'm sorry. I missed this?
You didn't really say that we shouldn't mix law with grace? Many people preach mixing it? Something something about lukewarmness?
You're right. Apparently I don't know you. Apparently, I'm supposed to guess what you mean because the words you use to write a post don't count?
Sorry. I don't do telepathy. Good luck finding someone who does.
Who is doing the knee jerk reaction when the only thing you're telling people who did respond is we're giving knee-jerk reactions?
Funny thing. I have never believed anything about balancing or mixing. I've never met anyone who does.
You didn't really say that we shouldn't mix law with grace? Many people preach mixing it? Something something about lukewarmness?
You're right. Apparently I don't know you. Apparently, I'm supposed to guess what you mean because the words you use to write a post don't count?
Sorry. I don't do telepathy. Good luck finding someone who does.
Who is doing the knee jerk reaction when the only thing you're telling people who did respond is we're giving knee-jerk reactions?
Funny thing. I have never believed anything about balancing or mixing. I've never met anyone who does.
L
again, i thank you for your kindness in explaining. 
i think this may be where half these discussions go off the rails.
when i think of law it's the Law of Christ... the Royal Law.
there are myriads of commands for the believer in the NT.
we obey those only by His grace, in the Spirit.
i think this may be where half these discussions go off the rails.
when i think of law it's the Law of Christ... the Royal Law.
there are myriads of commands for the believer in the NT.
we obey those only by His grace, in the Spirit.
I also have observed that the only unshakable foundation for some Christians is their ability to keep the law in the new testament. While many believers have built their foundation on the Rock of ages---Jesus. The latter means we won't have an 'occasional' confidence but one that is 'all the time' confidence. For me it was a major change. I was still a Christian but one who walked without confidence because it was from my own ability before God and not Jesus's.
It goes against any human reason to believe in a grace of God that answers you in your MOST undeserving moments of life. Very un-religious.
C
I seen your youtube attachment.
It is frustrating that I believe what he was saying but all the while promoting the sale of his books and cd's and the BLING everywhere in the church WTH?
Can deep truths of the love and grace of god still be obscured due to a foundation that loves money?
I believe that the love that Jesus gives us causes us to love Him and in turn causes us to obey the law by default. Doing what is right is not as much of a challenge when walking in grace and love.
It is frustrating that I believe what he was saying but all the while promoting the sale of his books and cd's and the BLING everywhere in the church WTH?
Can deep truths of the love and grace of god still be obscured due to a foundation that loves money?
I believe that the love that Jesus gives us causes us to love Him and in turn causes us to obey the law by default. Doing what is right is not as much of a challenge when walking in grace and love.
L
I'm glad you listened to the link Cruisyazz. I'm trying to understand what you are saying here. You agree with some of the theology but don't agree with the promotion of books and cds and "bling" you see in the church? What is WTH??
I think deep truths and the love and grace of God does not have to be obscured at all when we hear preaching from different preachers whether they be rich or not. Many people will not listen to anyone who has a fancy car or a big house. I'm not one of them.
Yes, I also believe that the Love of God constrains us and the grace of God teaches us how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.... We end up following Jesus out of love and not fear. Perfect Love casts out fear.
I think deep truths and the love and grace of God does not have to be obscured at all when we hear preaching from different preachers whether they be rich or not. Many people will not listen to anyone who has a fancy car or a big house. I'm not one of them.
Yes, I also believe that the Love of God constrains us and the grace of God teaches us how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.... We end up following Jesus out of love and not fear. Perfect Love casts out fear.
C
I just don't understand why being rich needs to be represented. Fine be rich, help the poor and put it to good use. Why air con churches, put in comfy seats, segregate special seating areas for those that give more or are of higher status? What fruits are we counting? Number of bums in fancy church's? It's just frustrating to see for me because I don't believe it is what He intended the church to be like. I wonder even if 99% is truth but 1% is corrupt is the whole 99% null and void? A little yeast works through the whole dough.
WTH - just for me meant what the heck! I don't understand...
WTH - just for me meant what the heck! I don't understand...
L
Personally, I can't be thinking about what is behind someone's heart motives. I listen to the message, if it's Biblical and if the Lord uses the message spoken by that preacher or teacher to teach me something, I'm not going to judge the thoughts and intents of someone's heart. That job is the Holy Spirit's and He doesn't need me to be a mini-holy spirit to assist Him.
If there is some blatant sin exposed in someones life or some teaching turns wrong, I will not listen to them anymore. But if it's a matter of how much money they have or don't have, or if they buy something I wouldn't buy with their money, that is not for me to compare myself with them and make that the standard. Everyone's situation is not the same and what one may consider extravagant another would consider nominal. I've come to the conclusion God can bless who He wants and cause them to prosper and do well. Judging motives is not something we were made to do. We can't read minds. There are only a few facts we do see and are privy to in another persons life and the older I get the less I'm willing to condemn other people. God has shown grace and He calls us to show it as well.
I wouldn't take that 99% right and 1% wrong causing to nullify the whole person. That is simply legalism at it's finest. What would we do if God dealt with us in such a way? If that is the standard, no one would be able to stand. And that is not even applying the mistakes people make. Better to never try and judge a persons heart. ever.
C
Point taken... I argue a similar point from time to time in that God can be found through other religions due to a persons sincere heart on wanting to know God. This point of view does not sit well with many Christians though. Except for those that accept that God is the only one that knows a mans heart and ultimately judges that.
It is hard to see past the grand structures and so on for me though. Particularly after a recent trip to Europe and seeing these massive catholic church's. I was like WTH.. Why? and to see the same in a similar belief structure that I have I cant help but think WHY? Love of Money is the root of all evil and could be that 1% that poisons the tree. I don't know if it should be overlooked.
It is hard to see past the grand structures and so on for me though. Particularly after a recent trip to Europe and seeing these massive catholic church's. I was like WTH.. Why? and to see the same in a similar belief structure that I have I cant help but think WHY? Love of Money is the root of all evil and could be that 1% that poisons the tree. I don't know if it should be overlooked.
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The carnal mind will fight against what I am going to present.
The end result is the same for those who are under the law and those who are without the law.
“For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” (Romans 2:11-12)
If a person is under the law, they are making the law their authority without hearing the voice of the Giver. They are only hearing their own voice interpreting what the law means according to their carnal mindset of works without faith.
If a person has no law to observe, they also cannot hear the voice of the Giver, but are forced into hearing only what their voice is saying concerning right and wrong, claiming faith without works, which is a dead faith.
When the voice of God is heard, then God is the authority and not the law, even though the law still remains intact, and they are also under the grace of the Giver by faith.
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17
According to the Aramaic language, (which was spoken at the time) this verse is better understood as follows.
“Think not that I am come to loosen, or release, (ashrea אשרא) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to unravel , but to complete (amala אמלא).
Being under the law is using the law as one's own authority with no grace obtained from the Giver. Throwing the law away also forces the individual to be one's own authority claiming grace from a Giver that they cannot hear. The end result is the same and both can be labeled as Pharisaical traditionalists.
When a man and woman are married via a marriage contract, and the woman goes to serve another man, as Israel went to serve other gods, then a divorce will occur. That doesn't negate the attributes of the husband, for his code of life remains the same. The Old Covenant can be completed, and incorporated into the New, but the Old Covenant cannot contain the New Testament in Christ in order to make the Old Covenant perfect.
“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” Hebrews 8:7
The writer of Hebrews proves by the testimony of Jeremiah, that there is a second testament or covenant, and therefore that the first was not perfect, and can only be completed by Christ Jesus.
The end result is the same for those who are under the law and those who are without the law.
“For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” (Romans 2:11-12)
If a person is under the law, they are making the law their authority without hearing the voice of the Giver. They are only hearing their own voice interpreting what the law means according to their carnal mindset of works without faith.
If a person has no law to observe, they also cannot hear the voice of the Giver, but are forced into hearing only what their voice is saying concerning right and wrong, claiming faith without works, which is a dead faith.
When the voice of God is heard, then God is the authority and not the law, even though the law still remains intact, and they are also under the grace of the Giver by faith.
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17
According to the Aramaic language, (which was spoken at the time) this verse is better understood as follows.
“Think not that I am come to loosen, or release, (ashrea אשרא) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to unravel , but to complete (amala אמלא).
Being under the law is using the law as one's own authority with no grace obtained from the Giver. Throwing the law away also forces the individual to be one's own authority claiming grace from a Giver that they cannot hear. The end result is the same and both can be labeled as Pharisaical traditionalists.
When a man and woman are married via a marriage contract, and the woman goes to serve another man, as Israel went to serve other gods, then a divorce will occur. That doesn't negate the attributes of the husband, for his code of life remains the same. The Old Covenant can be completed, and incorporated into the New, but the Old Covenant cannot contain the New Testament in Christ in order to make the Old Covenant perfect.
“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” Hebrews 8:7
The writer of Hebrews proves by the testimony of Jeremiah, that there is a second testament or covenant, and therefore that the first was not perfect, and can only be completed by Christ Jesus.
A
So, you're absolutely against legalists, huh? Judging from what you keep saying, (although now I find out what you say doesn't mean you're telling us anything about who you are or what you believe, so it's kind of obvious I've got nothing to figure out what you're saying other than this desire to have telepathy, so I can actually figure out what you're really thinking), it looks like you've just tossed away the law all together.
What's the difference between you and any other anarchist?
And why do you think whatever you believe (because we're really supposed to keep guessing what you believe since we can't possibly know what you believe from what you say) is in any way shape or form related to God or Christianity? Legalism isn't Christianity, but neither is anarchy.
What's the difference between you and any other anarchist?
And why do you think whatever you believe (because we're really supposed to keep guessing what you believe since we can't possibly know what you believe from what you say) is in any way shape or form related to God or Christianity? Legalism isn't Christianity, but neither is anarchy.
B
I think as far as lukewarmness, I don't think it's talking about mixing grace and the law. Both grace and law have to do with sin. Grace covers us from sin, the law makes aware of what sin is. . . . . Whe I hear lukewarm when it comes to scriputre, I think of someone who is talking the talk but not walking the walk, or something along those lines. There's quite a few theologies out there state that grace covers everything so once you're saved you don't need to worry. If that's the case why are there people babbling and complaining about the homosexuality marriage being legalized? That I would call hypocricy in the system.
You are either for God and His ways, or you are again God and His ways. There is no middle ground. Twisting scripture around to state that lukewarmness is Grace vs. Law is basically stating lukewarmness is the bible vs. the bible. That maaaaaaaaaakes nooooo sense whatsoever. A house/kingdom divided cannot stand, but a house/kingdom united will.
Turning scripture to disprove other scripture is lukewarmness, and division of a united house.
You are either for God and His ways, or you are again God and His ways. There is no middle ground. Twisting scripture around to state that lukewarmness is Grace vs. Law is basically stating lukewarmness is the bible vs. the bible. That maaaaaaaaaakes nooooo sense whatsoever. A house/kingdom divided cannot stand, but a house/kingdom united will.
Turning scripture to disprove other scripture is lukewarmness, and division of a united house.