Are we to resist ungodly government?

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

Galahad,

What do you mean by "no lasting harm will come to the saints"?

But first, make no mistake, I know that our Lord's kingdom is not of this earth. No problem there. But to bury our head in the sand and act like the slave who buried his master's talent, is a most dangerous avenue to walk.

So as to not "over spiritualize", James commands that if you see your brother hungry and fail to tend to his needs, the love of Christ is not in you. You might think so because you say a prayer on his behalf, but you are deceived.

And the disciples were commanded, at the last supper, to take up swords and when they were in the garden where Jesus got arrested, Peter used his sword. Jesus told them to take those swords!

The admonition from Christ, in that instance, and also in Revelation, is that we are not people who "LIVE BY THE SWORD". But using the sword for defense is not only wise, but commanded in various places and ways.

You cannot bury your head when criminals are doing violence against young girls. Nor can you bury your head at what your government is doing to people all over.

You have a mouth and a voice, and as a citizen in the USA you are expected to participate in your government so as to do righteousness in the land.

I'm not commanding you to run for Senate, but it would not hurt so long as you understood righteousness, and not some misguided ideas.

 

[crossnote]

good point... though I've read that in most of the 'handing over' cases, people didn't know where the Jews were going... probably to some kind of deportation site or something...

Yeah those would have been the Germans caught up in the latest fads and fashions clueless to what the Third Reich was up to. I mean long before Hitler took power he laid out his clear feelings about the Jews in his Mein Kampf (my struggle).

 

[breno785au]

In the early church, persecution of the saint spread the gospel further. Most of us have gone through nothing as Christians compared to them, in the western world that is.

 

[Utah]

I find that difficult to believe...

if obama's personality were as you describe, I think he would have started a religious cult, rather than going into american politics...

A cult cannot transform America, but that's exactly what he said he wanted to do in his first inauguration speech -- transform America -- the greatest nation ever seen on this planet.

 

[JimmieD]

I don't know about violent conflict, but for non violent resistance, Jesus, his disciples, Paul, and many other Christian s were imprisoned and/or executed for not submitting to the state's dictates.

 

[Elin]

There has been much said on this subject, here and elsewhere. Some think not, some think so.
When in doubt, turn to the word of God for instruction.
Such instruction is found in Ephesians chapter 6.

Let's look at a couple of verses and hopefully that will pique ones interest enough to study.
The word stand used here is a military connotation that denotes an attitude of offense or defence. It doesn't mean to just sit there and don't move. The use of it here suggests be aggressive against an enemy. Resist - put some effort into it.

Ephesians 6:11,12 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Just who are those enemies that it speaks of?
Principalities means rulers, powers means authorities, rulers refers to world rulers.
Our battle is spiritual in that our salvation is at stake. Our loyalty and obedience to our governing leaders is constrained only by their willingness to allow us to serve our God. Any person, be they fleshly (man) or spiritual (satan), that tries to force us to be disobedient to God becomes our enemy and requires our resistance.

Yes, only when we are required personally to sin must we disobey.

 

[HQ]

We must obey the laws of the land, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with them. After all we live in this world, but we must remember we are not of this world.

That's right. God sometimes chastises his people for disobedience. Interfering with His plan would likely prolong that chastisement. We see only a small part of His overall plan.

 

[atwhatcost]

What I said to Valiant also applies to you. Go to Strongs and other study aids. Look and see exactly what the wording used in those scriptures means in the Greek. There are 4 things we are to wrestle against (look up what wrestle means also) and only the 4th mentions spiritual wickedness in high places and there is nothing to say that doesn't mean wicked rulers. On the contrary, we can easily understand that to be the topic.

And who was the dude talking about wrestling? Oh yeah, the guy who wrestled with a thorn in his side, until God told him it wasn't going away.

And who was the dude who wrote that book? The same dude willing to claim his Roman citizenship knowing it would cost him first his freedom, and second his life.

While people keep thinking the enemy is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there, the enemy is free to nest inside.

 

[MarcR]

See what I mean, people?

Hopeless.

Have you ever stopped to think that the reason the "anti-christ" can come to power through America's wealth and armed forces, is because people like you turn a blind eye and deaf ear to what our elected representatives do?

Now tell me, and be sure to be true to your thesis, that you do not vote. You had better tell me that you do not vote at all, or else your post above can also be said to be hypocritical.

If you think that by political activism you are going to change God's schedule, you are welcome to try.

I have better ways of using the time God Has given me. God has given the Church the task of making disciples.

I don't see haw political activism contributes to that task. If you think you know better than God how you should use your time you are very unlikely to find believers who will follow you.

 

[phil112]

Yes, only when we are required personally to sin must we disobey.

Okay, that stumped me. You're going to have to explain how you can sin impersonally. What is a personal versus an impersonal sin?

 

[MarcR]

Most rightly advocate that there comes a point when the Christian is to resist, the problem is each having a conscience, that point comes at different places. When does your point kick in?

I believe that when we are pressured to participate in ungodliness it is time to resist.

Matt 5:39-45
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
KJV


What God has foretold MUST come to pass; and our efforts to resist God's schedule, however noble they might appear to us, are doomed to fail. I don't say that we should approve of or support ungodliness! I say that God has given us a task which should keep us too busy to participate in political activism.

 

[just-me]

I believe that when we are pressured to participate in ungodliness it is time to resist.

Matt 5:39-45
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
KJV


What God has foretold MUST come to pass; and our efforts to resist God's schedule, however noble they might appear to us, are doomed to fail. I don't say that we should approve of or support ungodliness! I say that God has given us a task which should keep us too busy to participate in political activism.

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between politics and government. I agree that we shouldn't take time to "participate in political activism." Nevertheless, I do believe Christians are obligated to be involved with enhancing righteous government. We should still vote, and pray that we see the truth in candidates, and continue to write our concerns to those that are "supposed " to represent us. We still have the right to peacefully assemble for a righteous and Godly cause concerning our God given morals to influence proper government.

 

[phil112]

And who was the dude talking about wrestling? Oh yeah, the guy who wrestled with a thorn in his side, until God told him it wasn't going away.

And who was the dude who wrote that book? The same dude willing to claim his Roman citizenship knowing it would cost him first his freedom, and second his life.

While people keep thinking the enemy is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there, the enemy is free to nest inside.

Let me see if I understand you. You don't vote, nor do you believe it is something a believer should do.
You obey the government and never speak against it although the constitution was written so that we can, should, and as citizens, are required to.
You believe that the only part of the world you should be concerned with is inside your church doors or inside the fence around your yard.

You do realize, I hope, that the pharisees and the sadducees were the ruling political parties of the time, and altho Christ didn't run for office, He did get in their face and call them a generation of vipers, that He told them they were going to hell? You know He told that to the scribes too. Who, exactly, do you think the scribes were?

Matthew 23:23-35 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

When your government is against God then God wants you to speak up. He told you they would want to kill you, as they did Christ. Are you getting cold feet? Does being a christian only matter to you if you can stay in your corner and escape discovery from those that hate God?
You need to step out of your closet and see what the world has become. obama is importing muslims, people that want to kill christians, the same christians that read the word and go into the world to spread the gospel and save souls.
Read the last sentence of that passage and think about what Christ Himself said would happen to them.
Don't you want to see all men go to heaven? Then speak up and tell them to change their evil ways. Be an ambassador of Christ. Be an obedient believer.

 

[psalm6819]

It is a bigger tragedy that you confuse America with God.

Why do you believe that?

 

[phil112]

Acts 5:28,29 "Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."

 

[jaybird88]

i think we should definitely speak out against corruption and wrong doing within our own government. Ironic that our government spends so much time forcing its will on other nations.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

My point is that what God has said will happen will indeed happen; and the Father, knowing what will happen, and when, has a fixed schedule for end time events.

Political activism is pointless; because we lack the power, and should lack the desire to alter God's schedule.

The only thing we are to resist is pressure to join ourselves to any government's ungodliness. We should not try to alter government's political course.

the problem with this opinion is that it fails to recognize that God often moves events along according to his schedule -through the actions of his people-

by suggesting that God's people should stay out of politics you are basically arguing that God should only be using the wicked to carry out his will for world events...


the truth is that God calls on us to represent him in every aspect of society...we are never commanded to concede any part of society to satan...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

anyway my last post was a comment on political activism and involvement...

on the other hand i will agree with anyone that argues that God does not call on christians to 'resist' by promoting secession or a coup in our country...

 

[crossnote]

That's right. God sometimes chastises his people for disobedience. Interfering with His plan would likely prolong that chastisement. We see only a small part of His overall plan.

God's plans are in His hands.
Our concern is with what He has commanded us.

 

[crossnote]

I believe that when we are pressured to participate in ungodliness it is time to resist.

Matt 5:39-45
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
KJV


What God has foretold MUST come to pass; and our efforts to resist God's schedule, however noble they might appear to us, are doomed to fail. I don't say that we should approve of or support ungodliness! I say that God has given us a task which should keep us too busy to participate in political activism.

So you would hide the hunted down Jews, but not resist evil (v.39). If the Nazis told you that any Jews you may be hiding you must turn them over...your response? (I know this is hitting below the belt but I had to ask).