Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

[MarcR]

IMO, the pre-trib rapture should be flushed down the toilet.

I no longer hold to a pre trib rapture. I believe the rapture will occur pre-wrath. I believe that the rapture occurs after the sixth seal has been opened and before the seventh seal is opened. Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

I believe that it will be soon. I believe that the first 5 seals have already been opened.

 

[purgedconscience]

I no longer hold to a pre trib rapture. I believe the rapture will occur pre-wrath. I believe that the rapture occurs after the sixth seal has been opened and before the seventh seal is opened. Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

I believe that it will be soon. I believe that the first 5 seals have already been opened.

Hi Marc.

One of the difficulties in understanding the book of Revelation is that everything doesn't happen in chronological order. In other words, the same events will be described over and over again, sort of from different camera angles, and that makes it difficult at times to understand the exact timing of said events. Both you and Kenneth believe that Revelation chapter 7 describes a pre-wrath rapture, but how does chapter 7 begin? I'll quote the last few verses of chapter 6 and the first verse of chapter 7:

Revelation chapter 6 verse 12 thru chapter 7 verse 1

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

After these things or after describing the great day of God's wrath which has come, John describes the events of chapter 7. Also, I know that a lot of people look to Revelation chapter 7 verse 14 for support for their pre-trib or pre-wrath beliefs, but is that justifiable?

Revelation chapter 7 verses 13 and 14

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A lot of people believe that those who came out of great tribulation were raptured out of the same, but is this what the verse actually teaches? If I understand properly, then the Greek word translated here as came should really be translated as come or are coming. In other words, they seem to be the saints who are getting martyred during the great tribulation as opposed to those who were allegedly raptured and somehow spared the same. I know that there are Bible translations which translate this as come or are coming. Which translation is correct?

 

[atwhatcost]

No that is exactly what Apostle Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2, as he said do not be deceived for the falling away (apostasy of the church) and the man of sin be revealed first has to take place before any gathering takes place.

Which means those who are teaching the rapture/gathering has already taken place are deceiving others in lies.

We are in the age of apostasy as false teaching of bad doctrines is so bad right now and so many people are blinded by it that it is a sad day and age we live in. Even the Lord said when He returns will He find any that still have true faith in Him (Luke 18:8). So much deception and leading away of the true word in Christ now days !!!

Wow, and he even added what you added in the parenthesis and everything? Pretty cool, since there were no parentheses back them. You must have a very special version of the Bible.

Like I said, no, that's not from the Holy Spirit. That's simply what you were taught.

 

[tanach]

Budman. How many Brides and Bodies does Jesus have? According to my Bible there is one Body and one Bride. According to the Pre Trib doctrine Jesus takes half his Bride and Body with him and leaves the rest to suffer.

 

[tanach]

Marc R Welcome aboard brother!!

 

[BarlyGurl]

Budman. How many Brides and Bodies does Jesus have? According to my Bible there is one Body and one Bride. According to the Pre Trib doctrine Jesus takes half his Bride and Body with him and leaves the rest to suffer.

Um, who is the bride and who is the body please? Are we sons and daughters of God or in-laws by marriage?

 

[oyster67]

I no longer hold to a pre trib rapture. I believe the rapture will occur pre-wrath. I believe that the rapture occurs after the sixth seal has been opened and before the seventh seal is opened. Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

I believe that it will be soon. I believe that the first 5 seals have already been opened.

Is this the same as believing in a mid-trib rapture?

 

[oyster67]

I no longer hold to a pre trib rapture. I believe the rapture will occur pre-wrath. I believe that the rapture occurs after the sixth seal has been opened and before the seventh seal is opened. Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

I believe that it will be soon. I believe that the first 5 seals have already been opened.

You believe the Trib has already begun?

 

[Samual]

Those left behind will still have a chance to be saved. Unfortunately, they will have to go through the Great Tribulation, with many losing their lives (beheaded) for the faith.

Those who take the Mark of the Beast, however, have made their eternal decision, and will be lost.

There's also something else I don't believe the Bible covers. What if you're forced to take it? Like they knock you unconscious and put the chip or whatever it is into you? You didn't willingly take it, but you have it. So does that mean you are considered a follower of Satan and therefore an enemy of God

 

[Samual]

In which case, kudos to the one person who answered like what you wanted, since the question makes no sense. There is telepathy in Christianity. Who'da thought?

For the record I thought the question was pretty straightforward without even reading the original paragraph. Does being left behind during the rapture mean you can never enter heaven? Seems pretty out and open

 

[dcontroversal]

Samuel,

The body presence of Christ and our gathering takes place at the 7th trump of Revelation, post tribulation, pre-wrath.....At one given moment all of the saved in Christ will be gone which will leave two classes of people....All of the Jews who will look upon him whom they pierced and collectively receive Christ as the Lion of the tribe of Judah and all of the lost who have believed the lie, been deluded by God and have sold out by taking and aligning themselves with the beast and his kingdom......the beast, A.K.A. the little horn (anti-Christ) so called will make war against the saints and prevail against them for 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days which is part of the great tribulation....at the end of the great tribulation and pre-wrath, Christ will gather the saints (saved) dia the angels........which will leave the lost under the AC and the remnant of Israel who will be saved collectively.......!

 

[oyster67]

There's also something else I don't believe the Bible covers. What if you're forced to take it? Like they knock you unconscious and put the chip or whatever it is into you? You didn't willingly take it, but you have it. So does that mean you are considered a follower of Satan and therefore an enemy of God

Only a bad choice, or the neglecting to make the right choice, can land a person in Hell.

 

[oyster67]

Budman. How many Brides and Bodies does Jesus have? According to my Bible there is one Body and one Bride. According to the Pre Trib doctrine Jesus takes half his Bride and Body with him and leaves the rest to suffer.

Pre-trib rapture doctrine says that those who are ready will be taken and those who are not will be left behind. Very straightforward and simple.

 

[Angela53510]

"Left Behind" a series of fiction books, written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins which made the New York Times Fiction best seller list and made a lot of money for the authors. It was then made into a bunch of fiction movies, making more money for this fiction account of end times.

So here is my challenge to you, Samual, put the word Rapture into the search engine for any reputable Bible translation, from KJV to ESV and more. Try Biblegateway, as there are many versions on there. You will not find the word "rapture" in any translation.

Then there is 1 Thess. 4:17 which I have dealt with over and over and over!

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The words "to meet" are ἀπάντησιν or apantesin in Greek. This word is only used three times in the New Testament, always when people meet someone AND RETURN. In other words, we are going to meet Jesus and return to earth with him. That is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

"so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Hebrews 9:28

No rapture, not in the Bible. No one left behind, because we are returning with Jesus!

But I do think we need to have our lives in order and be following Christ before he returns. So instead of worrying about nonsense end times stuff, focus on living a Christ-like life, and sharing the gospel.

 

[KennethC]

Wow, and he even added what you added in the parenthesis and everything? Pretty cool, since there were no parentheses back them. You must have a very special version of the Bible.

Like I said, no, that's not from the Holy Spirit. That's simply what you were taught.

That is exactly from the Word of God:

[h=1]2 Thessalonians 2[/h]2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

It is written and said clearly by Apostle Paul that the coming of the Lord and our gathering will not take place tell the falling away of the church and the man of sin is revealed first. How do we know that the falling away is speaking on the apostasy of the church? Because Paul taught on this to Timothy;


[h=1]1 Timothy 4[/h]4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

[KennethC]

Is this the same as believing in a mid-trib rapture?

No that would be a post trib rapture because God's wrath is poured out at the end of the great tribulation.

 

[purgedconscience]

"Left Behind" a series of fiction books, written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins which made the New York Times Fiction best seller list and made a lot of money for the authors. It was then made into a bunch of fiction movies, making more money for this fiction account of end times.

So here is my challenge to you, Samual, put the word Rapture into the search engine for any reputable Bible translation, from KJV to ESV and more. Try Biblegateway, as there are many versions on there. You will not find the word "rapture" in any translation.

Then there is 1 Thess. 4:17 which I have dealt with over and over and over!

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The words "to meet" are ἀπάντησιν or apantesin in Greek. This word is only used three times in the New Testament, always when people meet someone AND RETURN. In other words, we are going to meet Jesus and return to earth with him. That is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

"so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Hebrews 9:28

No rapture, not in the Bible. No one left behind, because we are returning with Jesus!

But I do think we need to have our lives in order and be following Christ before he returns. So instead of worrying about nonsense end times stuff, focus on living a Christ-like life, and sharing the gospel.

Hi Angela.

I'm definitely not a pre-tribber and I definitely believe that those who meet the Lord in the air will return right back down to earth, but do you have any documentation to support what you said about apantēsis meaning to meet and return? I see that this word actually appears 4 times in the New Testament in Matthew chapter 25 verses 1 and 6, Acts chapter 28 verse 15 and I Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17, but I'm not really seeing how it always means to meet and return. If you have any supportive documentation, then I'd certainly be interested in seeing it. Thank you.

 

[tanach]

Missouri I believe in the Pre Wrath rapture. With that I believe that the first five seals are not the wrath of God but Satans
the tribulation is not the whole seven years but the period after the Antichrist is revealed standing in the temple and begins to persecute the saints. At the sixth seal the rapture occurs and the wrath of God begins. I agree we escape the wrath of God which is directed at the unbelieving world but not the tribulation. In revelation it says that John saw a great crowd dressed in white holding palm branches. He asks who they are and is told that they are those who have come out of the great tribulation. The only other people he sees are the twenty four elders and the hundred and forty four thousand. If the pre trib position was right there should be another great crowd of raptured saints in addition to those that come from out of the tribulation. There isn't one so it appears that the Great Crowd and the raptured saints are one of the same .

 

[MarcR]

Is this the same as believing in a mid-trib rapture?

I don't think so. As I understand it, Mid trib would be after the ascendency of the beast. in Chapter 11.

 

[MarcR]

You believe the Trib has already begun?

Yes, if you consider the opening of the seals to be included in the Tribulation, as I do. Some people consider them to be precursors.