Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

[PlainWord]

SBG,

Is anything I've been saying to you make any sense at all? Sometimes I think you are on the verge of a breakthrough, of really starting to get it and it gives me hope to keep trying with you. I don't see much hope for some of the others. They are too set in their old ways.

If you want to do a cool exercise which proves what I've been saying, use the on-line version of the NKJV. It's free and can be found here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-King-James-Version-NKJV-Bible/#booklist

You can look up specific passages or better yet, and this is when my understanding started to take off, do KEY WORD searches. Take the Trumpets for example, just 1-4 for starters. Search for key words to see if they were used by the OT prophets and see how the OT prophets used them. You will find them used both literally and figuratively

Search for:

Mountain
Grass
Tree
Blood
Springs of Water
Earth
Sea (too many results)

Or, you can go to any number of sites on the internet like this one. It's pretty good, but not perfect:

Bible Symbols

They aren't all great. I've also been building my own list for my book. I'm only about half way done with it:

ANIMALS:

BEAR = Powerful Force, Kingdom of the Medes and Persians. (Pro 28:15, 2 Kings 2:23-24, Dan 7:5, Rev 13:2)
BEAST = World Kingdom or Empire/Major Political Force, usually had dominion over Israel (Dan 7:17, 23, Rev 13:1-4)
DOVE = Holy Spirt (Mark 1:10)
DRAGON – Satan or his agents (Psm 74:13-14, Isa 27:1, 30:6, Eze 29:3, Jer 51:34, Rev 12:7-9)
GOAT = Greece (Dan 8:21), sinful nation (Mat 25:23)
HORN = A king or a Leader or a Nation (Dan 7:24, 8:5, 21, 22; Zec 1:18-19, Rev 13:1, 17:12)
HORSE = Powerful and strong in battle (Job 39:19, Psm 147:10, Pro 21:31)
LAMB = Jesus/sacrifice (Jhn 1:29, 1 Cor 5:7, Rev 5:6, 6:1, 16, 14:1, 4)
LEOPARD = Greece (Dan 7:6, Rev 13:2)
LION = Jesus, King, Judah, Powerful Nation like Babylon, Fierce destructive/devouring force, like Satan (Dan 7:4, 17, 23, Jer 50:43-44, 1 Pet 5:8, Rev 5:4-9)
RAM = Medo Persia (Dan 8:20)
SERPENT = Satan (Gen 3:1, 2, 4, 13-14, Isa 27:1, 2 Cor 11:3, Rev 12:9, 14-15, 20:2)
TONGUE = Language, Spoken word, Sharp Sword (Exo 4:10, Psm 57:4, 64:3, Pro 12:18, Rev 1:16, 2:16, 19:15, 21)

WINGS = Speed, Protection, Deliver (Exo 19:4, Rut 2:12, Psm 17:8, Isa 40:31, Mat 23:37, Rev 12:14)
WOLF = Crafty enemy sometimes disguised as a friend, fierce evil destroyer (Jer 5:6, Eze 22:27, Mat 7:15, Luk 10:3, Acts 20:29)

COLORS:

WHITE = Pure, Spotless, Cleanse, Redeem (Psm 51:7, Isa 1:18, Dan 7:9, 11:35, 12:10, Rev 3:4-5,7:14, 19:14)
GREEN = Living thing, alive (Job 8:12, Psm 52:8, Isa 15:6, Rev 9:4)
PURPLE = Royalty, Wealth, Status (Dan 5:7, 29, Eze 23:6, Mrk 15:17, Luk 16:19, Jud 8:26, Rev 17:4, 18:16)
RED/SCARLET = Sin, Evil, Corrupt, Wickedness (Isa 1:18, 2 Sam 1:24, Lam 4:5, Rev 12:3, 17: 1-4)

ELEMENTS AND NATURAL THINGS:

GOLD = Pure of character, precious and rare (Isa 13:12)
WATER = Holy Spirit, Everlasting Life (Jhn 4:13-14, 7:37-39, Eph 5:26, Rev 22:17)
WATERS = Masses of People, Nations (Isa 17:12-13, Rev 17:15)
SEAS = Masses of unruly People, trouble-makers
FRUIT = Works, deeds, actions (Gal 5:22)
HARVEST = Gathering at End of Age (Mat 13:39, Jhn 4:35, Rev 14:14-16)
REAPERS = Angels (Mat 13:39, Rev 14:14-16)
FIELD = World, People of the World (Mat 13:38, Jhn 4:35)
WHEAT = Saved, Righteous, Sons of the Kingdom (Mat 13:38, 43)
TARES = Wicked living among the righteous, Sons of the Wicked One
STARS = Angels, messengers (Rev 1:16, 20; 12:4, 7-9; Job 38:7)
SEED = Descendants (Gen 3:15, 4:25, Rom 9:8)

Anyone who thinks it isn't important to recognize figurative language in the Bible is really missing out on a good 1/3 of its real meaning. Some brag and say, "We believe the Word of God is to be taken literally" and they pride themselves all puffed up when they say it. What they don't know is it is really dumb to do that unless you only want to get 2/3 of it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Exactly right. That's why we must be able to discern. Studying and understanding the abundant figurative language in the Bible is key. First test is to see if the passage makes sense if taken literally. If not, see if it makes sense using ESTABLISHED figurative language. If it doesn't make sense using the literal but does using the figurative, go with the figurative.

This is especially true in Revelation. You should probably reverse this definition for Revelation because almost the entire book is filled with figurative language. In the example I cited above, God would not have His people dwell in a literal rain storm when they were weary.



EXACTLY, now you're getting it. "SUN" is figurative for "SON," His Son. "SUN" is also figurative for a Christian, one who witnesses and helps save others.

Matthew 13:43

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

LIGHT, HEAT, both have strong figurative meanings. Very good!!



Oops, I spoke too soon. No, not every time. Use the test I gave you above.

This is literal. It makes perfect sense. The figurative does not make sense:

Mark 1:32

At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.

This is figurative, it does not make sense to take it literally.

Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Being a nuclear engineer, I know a little bit about the sun. If the sun was actually struck with something that dimmed its light by 1/3, the whole planet would freeze in about 20 seconds. LIGHT produces HEAT. A third less solar heat and we are finished. Also, the other stars would be unaffected by something happening to our sun because they are light sources themselves. If our sun literally went 1/3 dimmer, the other stars would actually appear brighter because our moon would dim by 1/3 since it reflects the light of our sun.

So, you can take the 4th trumpet to mean something bad just happened to either Christ (doubtful) or to His people - US!!

Exhibit A: There is a "falling away" of those with faith.

"...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..."

"...Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Exhibit B. Saints come under severe attack:

...I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came...

"...Shall persecutethe saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

"...And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

"...And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

No wonder there is a falling away. Not every one will die, many will just leave the faith or stop being a light.

Well that obviously won't work...
First of all, a donkey talking doesn't make sense with the science of men any more than a third of the sun going dark and not immediately freezing all life does.

So because the donkey doesn't make sense, I am to go look through all the bible to see if a donkey was ever spoken of in another instance. IF I find an instance, and since a talking donkey doesn't make sense, then I am to replace the word donkey with the other word I've found.

Additionally, you put God in subjection to the science of men, which is ever changing. The ever changing now rules over the never changing. That's some trick. And you have talked yourself out of even the more obscure miracles, let alone one that says a mans body, dead for thousands of years, will be raised again.

Miracles are miracles mostly because they DO defy mans science and our common everyday experience of how things happen.
I understand that our bodies are subject to the rules of science, which is to say the boundaries God placed on them, and on us. But God Himself is not bound by the rules and boundaries He submitted His creation to. Does God tie and bind His own hands?

The way you do it is not spiritual at all. In fact, it doesn't require the Holy Spirit to explain even one whit of Gods' word to you. Your system has done away with Him completely. You have a super decoder ring instead.

Just because something God has said will happen doesn't make sense to you does not mean it isn't going to happen exactly as He told it. My goodness, even Steven Spielberg can make locusts come up from the abyss to sting men, but God can't?

Before we could ever begin to get anywhere speaking with each other, you will have to make concessions for our literal selves and the literal ground we stand on.

 

[PlainWord]

Well that obviously won't work...
First of all, a donkey talking doesn't make sense with the science of men any more than a third of the sun going dark and not immediately freezing all life does.

So because the donkey doesn't make sense, I am to go look through all the bible to see if a donkey was ever spoken of in another instance. IF I find an instance, and since a talking donkey doesn't make sense, then I am to replace the word donkey with the other word I've found.

A donkey is not used as a figurative word anywhere that I am aware of and it wasn't used figuratively when first used. That's the point. You have to find a passage(s) where the word is used figuratively previously then apply the The rules of Hermeneutics to see if it is being used figuratively again. This is how to "rightly divide."

I am not the first, and certainly not the only, to bring this issue to light. There are many published articles on the subject of figurative language in the Bible. When Jesus said, "take eat, this is my body," was the bread is real body? Catholics think the bread literally became His body. Others think it merely represents His body (correct). Here are several articles you can read on-line to know when to identify figurative vs. literal language.

Figurative Language in the Bible

https://www.gci.org/bible/literal

The Use Of Figurative Language In The Bible, And How To Interpret It Effectively - Discover The Word

Figurative Language - BibleThought

Chapter 3: The Bible as Literature | CBN.com

The above link contains the below article from CBN. I didn't write this so perhaps you will listen to someone else since you have no use for what I say.

Figurative language is made up of figures of speech. These are words or phrases that help us understand something hard to explain by relating it to something we know about. John gave us a mental picture of Christ as a lamb being offered on an altar for our sins. This helps us understand Christ's purpose in coming to the world.Figures of speech help us to understand spiritual things which we cannot see with our natural eyes. Remember, in Lesson 1 we said Jesus compared Himself to life-giving water. He also compared Himself to bread, light, and a shepherd. On one occasion He said, "Listen! I am coming like a thief!" (Revelation 16:15). These examples show us we cannot go too far in comparing Jesus to any one of these things. He is like each thing in a limited way. But, the figures of speech help us to remember certain truths.Christ often used figurative language when He talked to His followers. He told them simple stories to help them understand important spiritual truths. In Matthew 18:10-14, Christ tells the story of the lost sheep. He compares Christians to sheep. He wants to teach us that He is as concerned about each one of us as a shepherd is about a lost sheep.Some figures of speech are called symbols. Symbols are words that represent truth about something. The words light, salt, and sheep are symbols of Christians. We are like each of these things. Even objects can become symbols. In the Lord's Supper, the bread and cup are symbols of Christ's body and blood. They remind us of Christ's death and suffering for our salvation.

This next article provides 6 rules to help you identify figurative vs. literal. READ THIS ARTICLE, and you will be blessed!!

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1971/10/the-figurative-language-of-the-bible
​

Clearly, this is a big problem in the Church. Today we tend to compartmentalize the Scriptures and have loss the sense that the Bible is a literary work. We use figuratively language every day in our speech and we read it in every book or article and we have no problem identifying figurative language every day. But, we refuse to acknowledge it in the most read book in the world. You are either missing out or misunderstanding so much of the Word if you treat everything literally. But, if you take the time to research and read the links I provided, a whole new way of seeing things will open up to you and you will be blessed.

 

[PlainWord]

Additionally, you put God in subjection to the science of men, which is ever changing. The ever changing now rules over the never changing. That's some trick. And you have talked yourself out of even the more obscure miracles, let alone one that says a mans body, dead for thousands of years, will be raised again.

I NEVER denied the resurrection. I deny that Christians will be resurrected at different times because there is no teaching of this. I don't deny any "obscure miracles" either. I know the talking donkey and burning bush were real miracles. I believe in all the miracles!!

I apply the Rules of Hermeneutics to the Bible which is how we are to "rightly divide." The Bible is loaded with figures of speech just as every good book is. The problem is, figures of speech which were obvious to people 2000+ years ago are not the same figures of speech we use today. I've taken the time to study this, you apparently haven't.

In all our study of the Word we need to guard against extremes. Extreme literalism can lead to a legality such as practiced by the Pharisees, while overemphasis upon the symbolic can lead to excessive allegorizing, for which the early church in Alexandria was noted - Ministry Magazine. You, Popeye, AHW, etc use extreme literalism. 31% of all Christians think every word of the Bible is to be taken literally. WHAT A COLOSSAL MISTAKE!!

When the 4th angel sounded, do you really think God hit the sun, moon and each of the trillions of stars with a stick dimming them by 1/3? He could, He's God and can do anything. But if He literally does this, then He would have to transform our bodies and all life on earth to survive it because we see life doesn't end at the 4th trumpet. Men are tormented for 5 months at the 5th trumpet so clearly figurative language is being used. I'm shocked, do you really think every star gets hit and dims by 1/3?

 

[PlainWord]

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

In the above sister, is Christ telling us to become cannibals? Are we to literally eat Jesus' body and drink His blood? If we don't are we really dead? I don't really think you believe this. If you see this as figurative language you would be correct. Jesus used figurative language all the time and so did His apostles and OT prophets.

As a friend, I'm telling you that this is an area of weakness for you, your inability or refusal to be able to ID figurative vs. literal speech in the Bible. Most of the time you might be able to get away with it but not in Revelation. That Book is absolutely loaded with figurative language all of which is found elsewhere in the Bible.

 

[Bladerunner]

SBG,



Anyone who thinks it isn't important to recognize figurative language in the Bible is really missing out on a good 1/3 of its real meaning. Some brag and say, "We believe the Word of God is to be taken literally" and they pride themselves all puffed up when they say it. What they don't know is it is really dumb to do that unless you only want to get 2/3 of it.

I read and study the Bible quite literally. Thanks for kind words?

Oh, where is the "Winged Lion". The lions in Chapter 6 did not have wings? It is the Symbol for Babylon during the Babylonia Empire period and is on many of present day Babylon building entrances although Sadum Hussein took most of them off and put his on symbol on them.

If you going to study the Bible literally and Prove GOD exist and did Write, inspire the entire Bible from cover to cover, you had better be studying more than figurative language. To get figurative language simply refer to several of the new (rewritten) Bibles.

 

[Bladerunner]

I

When the 4th angel sounded, do you really think God hit the sun, moon and each of the trillions of stars with a stick dimming them by 1/3? He could, He's God and can do anything. But if He literally does this, then He would have to transform our bodies and all life on earth to survive it because we see life doesn't end at the 4th trumpet.

Men are tormented for 5 months at the 5th trumpet so clearly figurative language is being used. I'm shocked, do you really think every star gets hit and dims by 1/3?
[/SIZE]

*****
Rev 8:12..."Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well."

And you say this is figurative???? WHY Rem..... these are God's words. If He said he hit 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars, I for one believe him.

Rev 9:9 5 "And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man."

This was figurative as well.......... WHY? Does not fully 1/3 of the people on earth die before the 2nd half (the Great Tribulations) of tribulations so many have warned us about?


Just what do you think Revelations is for...to tell you a fairy tale about the good times that are to be had during the first 42 months of the tribulations?????

 

[PlainWord]

I read and study the Bible quite literally. Thanks for kind words?

Sorry to hear that. Guess you are also flying half blind. You know, it is possible for God to write EVERY Word and still use figurative language.

Since your Biblical knowledge is somewhat limited by your inability to discern figurative from literal let me see if I can help you by way of example.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Speaking in parables is speaking in FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE. I am so shocked how many real Christians haven't a clue how to recognize it. This is a really bad problem and I am worried about you literal people. You are missing out so much on the many deeper truths within the Bible.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

In the above sister, is Christ telling us to become cannibals? Are we to literally eat Jesus' body and drink His blood? If we don't are we really dead? I don't really think you believe this. If you see this as figurative language you would be correct. Jesus used figurative language all the time and so did His apostles and OT prophets.

As a friend, I'm telling you that this is an area of weakness for you, your inability or refusal to be able to ID figurative vs. literal speech in the Bible. Most of the time you might be able to get away with it but not in Revelation. That Book is absolutely loaded with figurative language all of which is found elsewhere in the Bible.

I do see figurative speech in the bible. However, I most definitely do not agree with you on some of what you say is meant to be taken figuratively. When they would read that the Messiah would come from three seemingly different places, this did not make sense to them. But it happened just as God said it would. You cannot insist on making figurative every single thing you do not understand or that doesn't seem to match up with science. That is NOT the "correct dividing" you spoke of.

 

[PlainWord]

I do see figurative speech in the bible. However, I most definitely do not agree with you on some of what you say is meant to be taken figuratively. When they would read that the Messiah would come from three seemingly different places, this did not make sense to them. But it happened just as God said it would. You cannot insist on making figurative every single thing you do not understand or that doesn't seem to match up with science. That is NOT the "correct dividing" you spoke of.

EVERY SINGLE TIME? Please show me where I said that. Do 4 literal horses ride out in the first 4 seals literally doing the things we are told? Quasar and apparently Blade think that during the Great Tribulation, a literal white horse with a bow and a crown will ride out shooting people followed by a red horse who take peace from the earth with his great sword. Then of course the black horse with his scales talking about bread ingredients, oil and wine. Then comes the dreaded pale horse killing 1/4 of the planet. THIS IS ALL FIGURATIVE, not literal.

Then as we turn to the trumpets we see unbelievable horror with all the grass being burned up which would kill all the animals and 1/3 of the trees which would really raise CO2 levels. Then of course we have this great burning mountain thrown into the sea turning 1/3 of the oceans into blood. Literal blood from a burning mountain? Do you realize that all of our oceans are connected. If 1/3 of the oceans (sea) turned to literal blood, the blood would spill into the other 2/3 eventually causing all the oceans to be 1/3 blood. This would kill all ocean life.

Now comes the global killer, the great star falling on a third of rivers and springs of water. A literal star is a sun. How does a sun fall on us without incinerating the planet? If a literal star (or sun) came too close to the Earth its gravitation pull would suck our planet in.

We then come to the 1/3 of all stars, sun and moon getting struck or hit by something which dims them by 1/3 freezing us and killing all planet life within a few weeks. Blade thinks God actually takes a stick or something and hits all the suns in the universe.

Then we move to the 5th trumpet and another star or sun falls to Earth. But this star is different, it is actually holding a key. Stars hold keys? Wouldn't the key melt? So you have a star taking a key and opening up hell. Sure God can do anything but is that really what happens?

Maybe, just maybe the star is an angel? Is that possible? Is the star figurative for angel or is it literal. Blade thinks its literal. If you agree that the star in this case is figurative maybe the star in the 3rd trumpet is figurative also? Is that possible? If they are figurative, what else is? How about the "great mountain" could it be figurative to represent a "great religion?" What was Mystery Babylon called again?

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

See, it's a GREAT religion and it's city is called "great."

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

What to Muslims shout? Allahu Akbar!! God (Allah) is great!!!

Stay with me here. Look at Jer 51. Do you think John took any symbolism from this passage?

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight,” says the Lord.[SUP] 25 [/SUP]“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain.

Here God calls Babylon a "destroying mountain" that He will make into a "burnt mountain." God says Babylon destroys all the earth. Is this literal or figurative? Is the Earth the ground we walk on or its people? Is a literal mountain good or evil? Can a literal mountain do evil in Zion (Israel)?

This is what I am talking about. You can find much, if not all, of John's symbolism and events discussed in the OT prophets.

Tell you what, you can read the 2nd trumpet and see a literal burning mountain crashing into the sea turning 1/3 of them into literal blood if you want to but I see a great evil religion (Islam) destroying 1/3 of mankind with its false doctrine thereby costing 1/3 of mankind salvation. Interesting that 1/3 of mankind is also killed at the 6th trumpet, I wonder if it's the same third?

 

[PlainWord]

This was figurative as well.......... WHY? Does not fully 1/3 of the people on earth die before the 2nd half (the Great Tribulations) of tribulations so many have warned us about?


Just what do you think Revelations is for...to tell you a fairy tale about the good times that are to be had during the first 42 months of the tribulations?????

First off the Great Tribulation is the all out attack against Israel by overwhelming Islamic forces made up by Russia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, possibly Turkey, possibly Pakistan, definitely Libya and Ethiopia. Why do you think Jesus only warned those in Judea to flee? The Great Tribulation (as called by Jesus) has LITTLE to do with the seals, trumpets and bowls - directly that is. The real GT last just 45 days as told in Dan 12.

Good times?? No, I don't think watching Christianity fall away with Islam on the rise is good times. As Islam spreads more and more into the world they continue to eat away at our freedoms. Did you know that the UK has 85 Sharia Courts operating? Did you know there were 21 honor killings in America last year? This is how they do it, they infiltrate different societies/countries and eventually grow in power. They hold seats in government and attempt to change laws and customs.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law.

They do not come to assimilate, they come to convert, by force if they have to.

How does John put it?

He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

The "beast" was the Ottoman Empire which received a mortal wound. An "image" is a copy. John is saying that a copy of the Ottoman Empire will emerge acting just like the Ottoman Empire did. Read up on what the Ottomans did to the Armenian Christians. So the copy of the Ottoman Empire will speak demanding that everyone worship and serve Islam. Pretty good description for a man from 2,000 years ago seeing into the future a religion that wouldn't even exist for another 540 years from when he saw it.

 

[PlainWord]

For those of you not completely brainwashed by false interpretations, this is the Great Tribulation (as spoken of by Jesus). This is what really happens:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land...

No wonder Jesus tells those in Judea to flee. THEY ARE ABOUT TO GET ATTACKED BY A MASSIVE ISLAMIC ARMY.

This attack really angers God, even though He authorizes it to turn Israel back to Him as He has done so many times before. The Wrath of God is kindled by this attack. Therefore, God's Wrath is not the Great Tribulation. God's Wrath is in response to the GT.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken...

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. God's wrath comes later. What does Jesus say???

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation...

Jesus doesn't mention any of the "horrors" of the trumpets, assuming they are literal, does He? You would think if trees, grass, burning mountains, dimming stars etc were happening here, Jesus might mention it a little, but He doesn't. Why? Because the GT is a war between the King of the North and King of the South and Israel gets caught up in it.

Only those in Judea are told to flee. Why? Because as Eze 38 tells us it is Israel that comes under attack. Jesus invokes Daniel 11, not Daniel 9. In Dan 11 we find the Abomination of Desolation which triggers the attack. Here you find the same Great Tribulation that Jesus and Ezekiel spoke of.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation... [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering...

The Great Tribulation comes to its end at the end of Dan 11.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Then we see God's Wrath. Now this is really big. This is no joke, not that the GT was a picnic either. This is God's Wrath. This is the DAY OF THE LORD!!

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time...

It is at this time that we have the resurrection and rapture as Daniel tells us. Jesus and Daniel tell the same story in chronological order. They don't jump around. Neither passage speaks of a resurrection until all of these things are fulfilled. I don't care how many degrees someone has or from which Bible college. They are dead wrong if they teach anything other than this!!

And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[slaniav]

Is mankind wiser than God? Knowing how deceptive Satan is, that he would put all his
effort into gaining souls for his already lost battle against God, would God be careless
to allow this confusion for those who seek truth? If Christ didn’t set up His kingdom in a
day when people still regarded that deity was always part of man’s existence, would He
decide that now, when people have forgotten about God, profanity is part of the jargon,
people are almost entirely without reason, would He decide now to establish that kingdom in
a sin-filled planet?
Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”, and He leaves no opportunity for Satan’s
impersonations to be confused with His own.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Sorry to hear that. Guess you are also flying half blind. You know, it is possible for God to write EVERY Word and still use figurative language.

Since your Biblical knowledge is somewhat limited by your inability to discern figurative from literal let me see if I can help you by way of example.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Speaking in parables is speaking in FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE. I am so shocked how many real Christians haven't a clue how to recognize it. This is a really bad problem and I am worried about you literal people. You are missing out so much on the many deeper truths within the Bible.

I disagree. He couldn't have written every word to be figurative - at least not with the way He constructed our minds. We understand things like figurative language and abstractions specifically because we have knowledge of the actual thing that is being figuratively spoken of or abstracted. If every word was written figuratively, we would have to think too hard and our heads would hurt every time we picked up our bibles. We are okay with some figurative language, but when every single word must mean something other than the plain sense of the word, we would get tired and ache.

I get the sense that you think to see spiritually is to see figuratively. This isn't the case. Seeing a deeper and eternal meaning beyond the temporal and temporary is not achieved by a labor of the mind. Although figurative language IS understood by a labor of the mind.

Do you see that "figurative," at least in the way you understand it, is to say: whenever I say A, I mean B. It's like...a code, in your mind.

But a parable is different. A parable says: the thing I am talking about is like, or similar to, thus and thus.

There MAY be figurative elements sometimes in a parable, but parables are not written figuratively for the most part. You aren't replacing one word with another. You are saying: A can be likened to B. You are not saying A IS B, and henceforth, A will always be B.

Have I confused the issue? It's one of my great talents.

 

[slaniav]

The very mountains will be out of place. All of heaven's angels will accompany Him. Anyone clinging to sin will be consumed by His glory, all the wicked will perish, and the righteous caught up to meet Him in the clouds. Even in the presence of angels men fell on their faces as dead. Who can stand
who has not completely allowed heart's preparation? No one falls to their face around Satan, except when they're being beaten in possession. Satan will not be allowed to exactly duplicate Christ's return, even with all the lying wonders at his disposal. Christ's feet will not touch the ground. The mountains and islands will be out of their places. The dead in Christ will rise first, and living saints will be caught up in the clouds to meet Him. There's a fake rapture waiting likely, but if the world goes on as was, it wasn't the true Jesus. One important warning is not to go see or meet this deceiver. Satan probably has saved his best for last. Doug Batchelor asks why you would want to go.. to be hypnotized? Many understand that those who go to the 'rapture' will be slaughtered.
Don't train your minds even to love Satan's music. He has a thousand snares.

 

[Quasar92]

Accirding to PlainWord: EVERY SINGLE TIME? Please show me where I said that. Do 4 literal horses ride out in the first 4 seals literally doing the things we are told? Quasar and apparently Blade think that during the Great Tribulation, a literal white horse with a bow and a crown will ride out shooting people followed by a red horse who take peace from the earth with his great sword. Then of course the black horse with his scales talking about bread ingredients, oil and wine. Then comes the dreaded pale horse killing 1/4 of the planet. THIS IS ALL FIGURATIVE, not literal.

I see you alluding to me with another false statement! I do not claim all of Revelation is literal. A great portion of it is symbolic. From which all symbolism has a literl mening. It is by no means "all figurati," s you claim.


Qusasr92ve

 

[PlainWord]

I disagree. He couldn't have written every word to be figurative - at least not with the way He constructed our minds. We understand things like figurative language and abstractions specifically because we have knowledge of the actual thing that is being figuratively spoken of or abstracted. If every word was written figuratively

There you go again, I NEVER SAID EVERY WORD WAS FIGURATIVE.

I get the sense that you think to see spiritually is to see figuratively. This isn't the case. Seeing a deeper and eternal meaning beyond the temporal and temporary is not achieved by a labor of the mind. Although figurative language IS understood by a labor of the mind.

The more you study, the easier it becomes to discern between figurative and literal language. You begin to put yourself into the time of Christ and start thinking and reading like they talked.

The OT was written by men of old. The NT was completed in the first century AD. The words used back then were the words used in their day, not ours. We are reading it 2,000 years later. Paul's letters where written to his contemporaries specifically, not us although they have great meaning for all.

Language changes, figures of speech change but the WORD remains the same. We have a double challenge. Not only were their figures of speech different from ours, their language was different.

Today we might call a rowdy group of people - THUGS or a GANG
They might call them - The SEA AND WAVES ROARING

Today we might call "a large group of people" - THE MASSES
They might call them - GREEN GRASS

Today we might call "an empire" - A SUPER POWER
They might call it - A MOUNTAIN

Today we might call "eating and drinking" - A PARTY
They might call it - TAKING IN THE WORD OF GOD

Our prospective is different. We live in a different time and world and way of speaking. We cannot look at the Bible as a recent work applying our own set of rules to it. We have to apply their rules and their figures of speech. If you don't, you will not fully understand.

 

[PlainWord]

I see you alluding to me with another false statement! I do not claim all of Revelation is literal. A great portion of it is symbolic. From which all symbolism has a literl mening. It is by no means "all figurati," s you claim.


Qusasr92ve

That is correct. Why don't you show off your scholarly skills and show us whether or not this is literal or figurative and what it really means?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.