If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[posthuman]

No, dear sir. Who confounded the languages and made them different? God did. Yes, English came about much later, but it was God who made the different languages at the Tower of Babel and it was God that brought understanding to all the different languages in the church in Acts chapter 2.

hmm i dunno, i've heard lots of wicked things said in the English language.
isn't that reason enough to decide dogmatically that anything said or written in English is evil?
we gotta be "separated" and "not give the appearance" you know.
isn't that reason enough to say that anyone speaking English is led astray?

try this Jason: don't speak English for at least 2 years. you can still say exactly the same things, but you can only say them in Aramaic. then come back to it. see if you don't think exactly as i do then.

 

[elf3]

Not sure how people can't see it. If God were to allow you to get away with horrible or serious sins, then why doesn't he save everyone who does the same kind of evil? What honestly makes you different than the unbeliever? Just a belief on Jesus? Does it sound like Jesus and the apostles made excuses for sin? For there are only a small set of verses that you can twist that appears to say believers are sinful and yet saved despite their sinfulness. However, the Bible does not say that, though.

God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

If you were to make a list out of the Commands and Teachings in the New Testament, you would see that things are not the way you would like them to be. For there is no such thing as a sin and still be saved doctrine.

Well your compete lack of humility keeps you from understanding. You keep the blinders on so you only see what you want. The thing is that you say "you people" yet you seem to be standing alone. You refuse to fully understand grace and mercy so you will refuse to see that your "perfection" and "sinlessness" can never be achieved.

 

[elf3]

I strive to be "like Jesus" but I rely on Jesus to lead me. You on the other hand seem to need to be Jesus to attain salvation. The saying "what would Jesus do" is wrong as we are not Jesus. The correct saying should be "what would Jesus have me do". That is where your misunderstanding comes from.

 

[Jason0047]

You lack of reasoning skills go unsurpassed and you have no clue.....Paul said it clearly...Jesus saves sinners of whom I AM CHIEF...not WAS CHIEF...PRESENT TENSE I AM CHIEF....actually the only (no such thing doctrine) is the foolishness which you spew!

No, Paul did not say he was the chief of sinners in the present tense. We know this by actually looking at the context.

For Paul says,

"I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst." (1 Timothy 1:12-15).

 

[Jason0047]

I strive to be "like Jesus" but I rely on Jesus to lead me. You on the other hand seem to need to be Jesus to attain salvation. The saying "what would Jesus do" is wrong as we are not Jesus. The correct saying should be "what would Jesus have me do". That is where your misunderstanding comes from.

1 John 2:6
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked"

 

[Jason0047]

Well your compete lack of humility keeps you from understanding. You keep the blinders on so you only see what you want. The thing is that you say "you people" yet you seem to be standing alone. You refuse to fully understand grace and mercy so you will refuse to see that your "perfection" and "sinlessness" can never be achieved.

I do not stand alone. There are many others who are against OSAS. But we are the few; And that is a good thing because Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it.

 

[Jason0047]

hmm i dunno, i've heard lots of wicked things said in the English language.
isn't that reason enough to decide dogmatically that anything said or written in English is evil?
we gotta be "separated" and "not give the appearance" you know.
isn't that reason enough to say that anyone speaking English is led astray?

try this Jason: don't speak English for at least 2 years. you can still say exactly the same things, but you can only say them in Aramaic. then come back to it. see if you don't think exactly as i do then.

Sorry, my friend. Now your just not making any sense here.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not stand alone. There are many others who are against OSAS. But we are the few; And that is a good thing because Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it.

Your out of your mind...the majority of Christiandom preaches a works based salvation that can be lost...the minority are those who teach eternal salvation by grace thru faith alone......and your premise is false and contrary to the truth!

 

[Jason0047]

You have a source for this assumption?

Basic Archaeology and the Bible.

For do you agree that Egyptians are not white in appearance? Granted, there might have been a few anomalous white Egyptians genetically, but we know from archaeology (with Egyptian wall drawings) that Egyptian people are darker in skin color and not white. Do you agree? What does this have to do with Jesus? Well, Jesus was of the descent of the Jewish / Hebrew people.

So if Egyptians are darker in skin color and Joseph was say white, than wouldn't you think his brothers would have recognized him? You know, sort of like a Q Tip or a rabbit's foot?

What about Moses? Are we really to believe that he could have passed off as an Egyptian being a white skinned fella?

In fact, when Moses fled to the land of Midian (located in Saudi Arabia) he helped 7 daughters of the priest of Midian water their flock and he later chased away some bad shepherds.

Exodus 2:19
And they said, AN EGYPTIAN DELIVERED US out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock.

In other words, they thought he was a dark skinned Egyptian.

In Acts 21:37-38, a chief captain was surprised that Paul spoke Greek, and he mistaken him for being an Egyptian. Why? Egyptians are darker in skin color. If Paul's skin was as white as wool, then how can this chief captain mistake him for an Egyptian?

Think, my friend. Jesus was Jewish just like Paul.

Jesus is not white. He is darker in skin color. Mid tone.

 

[Jason0047]

Your out of your mind...the majority of Christiandom preaches a works based salvation that can be lost...the minority are those who teach eternal salvation by grace thru faith alone......and your premise is false and contrary to the truth!

Let's just say for the moment that Works Salvationism is Biblical (Even though it is not). What would be better? To believe in Works salvationism? Or to believe in doing evil while still being saved? I am afraid I would pick Works Salvationism between those two choices because one does not allow for doing evil. Granetd, I do not believe in Works Salvationism, but if it came down to me doing good versus evil, I would choose doing good every time. OSAS allows you to get away with doing evil while still being in God's good graces for some strange reason. But we know God is Holy and God is good and He will not condone anyone (Especially His people) in doing evil.

 

[KennethC]

Your out of your mind...the majority of Christiandom preaches a works based salvation that can be lost...the minority are those who teach eternal salvation by grace thru faith alone......and your premise is false and contrary to the truth!

I don't know where you have been because OSAS is almost just as big as Catholicsim, as almost all denominations have been affected with Calvinism in one way or another.

The 1980's a bunch of main stream and local churches around the country banded together to try and shut down this false Calvinist doctrine. They were only successful at slowly it down for a time, but now it is so mainstream again and those of the doctrine try to deny Calvin was the one who started it.

 

[wattie]

Again Kenneth

OSAS does not equal Calvinism

Calvinism- in its fullest sense.. has salvation foreordained for only those who God knew in advance WILL do good works.

This is the Perseverance of the Saints teaching.

They may be secure in their salvation.. can't be lossed.. but that is only for those who have a pattern of good works that God selected in advance!

It is still works based!

Why is it always either Calvinism or Armenianism?

There are a whole lot of people who believe in OSAS who deny Calvinism on almost all points!

Churches I am from teach OSAS..but reject calvinism. Why? Because OSAS was taught straight from the bible way before John Calvin put together his systematic theology or whatever it is called.

Now I won't say the calvinist isn't saved.. I also want say the armenian isn't saved.. because part of believing in OSAS means that when God works in a person's heart to convert them.. they are then converted! What happens after that.. isn't dependent on the salvation in the first place!

Ah... why do I keep going in response with these threads? (Sigh)

Oh well.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Jason, I butted-in on this thread because it is quite clear to me that your view isn't going to change anytime soon. Some of the stuff you say I do find a little worrying but do I believe in your salvation? Yes absolutely, the way you tackle hordes of opposition and some not very kind comments, your replies are always spoken with kindness and love, I've never seen you retaliate. I've no doubt you love God and have The Holy Spirit but you are too "religious" and don't seem to understand that Jesus' sacrifice changed everything. Sure we still sin because we are born in a sinful state but we feel so bad about it when we do. Why? Because The Holy Spirit grieves us. We try to become more like Jesus but we never quite get there because God will finish the work He began in us when we leave this world. So do I believe in OSAS? Yes but I know God hates it when we sin, He forgives us every time though because Jesus has already paid the price with His precious blood, to say otherwise is like saying Jesus' death was not sufficient.

God bless you brother Jason.

 

[Jason0047]

I hope you are right, but if he is trusting in HIS ability to be sinless, I worry about his salvation.
Only God knows.

Again, this is a false accusation or misunderstanding on your part (among many others here). Nowhere did I say it was by a believer's power or ability that they stop sinning. Clearly something like this is by the power of God and all glory, honor, and power goes unto the Lord. For have you ever read Ezekiel 36:26-27? That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I butted-in on this thread because it is quite clear to me that your view isn't going to change anytime soon.

This is true. I cannot unlearn what I have learned by the Spirit and God's Word. However, I also knew about doing good and and in doing evil even before I was saved, though. Good guys do good and bad guys do evil. I am sorry you and others here do not understand that concept. It's called morality.

Some of the stuff you say I do find a little worrying

I would be happy to clarify anything you are worried about with the Word of God any time.

but do I believe in your salvation? Yes absolutely, the way you tackle hordes of opposition and some not very kind comments, your replies are always spoken with kindness and love, I've never seen you retaliate. I've no doubt you love God and have The Holy Spirit

Yes, it is only by His power and grace that I am able to stand up against opposition in such a way; And all salvation does belong to the LORD, too. But thank you for the kind words here.

but you are too "religious" and don't seem to understand that Jesus' sacrifice changed everything.

All I have ever quoted to everyone here is the Word of God. Yes, it is true. Jesus sacrifice did change things in the Old Testament, but it did not allow for his saints to be sinners. It doesn't work like that. John says this, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." John also says,, "He that committeth sin is of the devil;" John also says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:7-8, 10).

Sure we still sin because we are born in a sinful state but we feel so bad about it when we do. Why? Because The Holy Spirit grieves us. We try to become more like Jesus but we never quite get there because God will finish the work He began in us when we leave this world. So do I believe in OSAS? Yes but I know God hates it when we sin, He forgives us every time though because Jesus has already paid the price with His precious blood, to say otherwise is like saying Jesus' death was not sufficient.

But this is not in the Bible, though.

Proverbs 28:13 says if we confess and forsake sin we will have mercy.

IF..... IF.... we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). No confessing of sins (serious sins), then there is no forgiveness.

This is also in context to walking in the light, too.

For if we walk in the light as He is in the light, THEN....THEN.... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is talking about keeping His commands. How so? Read 1 John 2:3-4. In 1 John 2:3 it is essentially saying you can have assurance in knowing Him if you find that you are keeping His Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

As for a believer in ceasing from sin: Again, the Bible does teach this. Read again 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and Romans 6:14 closely in prayer.

God bless you brother Jason.

May God bless you, as well.
And may all good things in Christ Jesus be unto you.

 

[Jason0047]

Again Kenneth

OSAS does not equal Calvinism

Calvinism- in its fullest sense.. has salvation foreordained for only those who God knew in advance WILL do good works.

This is the Perseverance of the Saints teaching.

They may be secure in their salvation.. can't be lossed.. but that is only for those who have a pattern of good works that God selected in advance!

It is still works based!

Why is it always either Calvinism or Armenianism?

There are a whole lot of people who believe in OSAS who deny Calvinism on almost all points!

Churches I am from teach OSAS..but reject calvinism. Why? Because OSAS was taught straight from the bible way before John Calvin put together his systematic theology or whatever it is called.

Now I won't say the calvinist isn't saved.. I also want say the armenian isn't saved.. because part of believing in OSAS means that when God works in a person's heart to convert them.. they are then converted! What happens after that.. isn't dependent on the salvation in the first place!

Ah... why do I keep going in response with these threads? (Sigh)

Oh well.

It's a sequel of Calvinism or an offshoot of it. For surely you do not believe that a believer can choose to walk away from the LORD, right? This would mean that you believe that all believers lose their free will when they accept Christ. Hence, why OSAS is likened with Calvinism.

 

[Jason0047]

Your out of your mind...the majority of Christiandom preaches a works based salvation that can be lost...the minority are those who teach eternal salvation by grace thru faith alone......and your premise is false and contrary to the truth!

Actually, it is by grace thru faith alone. But what does one's faith look like, though? Is it is mere demon belief type faith as mentioned in James 2? For TItus 1:16 says you can deny Him in works. Also, whose work are we talking about here? Your work, my work, the other guy's work down the street? No. It is the work of the Lord done in you. That is whose work I am talking about... so I cannot take credit or boast in any good work done in my life. For when God convicts me to obey His Word, it is His working in me to do that. Ever read Ezekiel 36:26-27? What does it say? Does God's Spirit work in the believer to keep His laws and statutes or not?

 

[Jason0047]

I strive to be "like Jesus" but I rely on Jesus to lead me. You on the other hand seem to need to be Jesus to attain salvation. The saying "what would Jesus do" is wrong as we are not Jesus. The correct saying should be "what would Jesus have me do". That is where your misunderstanding comes from.

I am not striving to attain salvation, either. I have an assurance of my salvation right here and right now in Jesus Christ and what He has done for me and by the promises in His Word (by repentance). As for works: Well, I am merely yielding to the LORD who lives within me. For if God lives within a person, then surely the good fruit of the LORD will follow and not bad fruit, yes? So the work is not about salvation, but it is just merely the "Effect" of the "Cause" of salvation or in having God living in you. No God living in you = No salvation. For God is our salvation. He is the source of eternal life. Not some work on our part and not some mental acknowledgment demon belief type of faith (with no actual change in our lives or making of excuses to live in sin).

 

[Jason0047]

I think what he means is that we are sinful by nature so we have a natural condition to sin. But being a Christian we don't willfully sin so it would be unintentional. For example I don't swear but sometimes I unintentionally swear. So because of my sin nature the "word" came out but in normal everyday talk I don't swear. I think that might be what he means.

It is to be commended that you bridle your tongue. Believers are told to do so or their religion is in vain.

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." (James 1:26).

But as you know the Law points us to Jesus Christ. For as you know, the Law is a school master whereby when we repent of our sins and accept Christ, we are changed spiritually whereby we allow Him to do the good work in us. This is where the real fruit results. Not our fruit. But the fruit of God. So speaking correctly is a result of the Spirit convicting (As I am sure you are aware of). But at no point can we speak evils and refuse to repent of such a thing and still be saved, though. Christians are not above God and His Commands in the New Testament.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

This is true. I cannot unlearn what I have learned by the Spirit and God's Word. However, I also knew about doing good and and in doing evil even before I was saved, though. Good guys do good and bad guys do evil. I am sorry you and others here do not understand that concept. It's called morality.



I would be happy to clarify anything you are worried about with the Word of God any time.



Yes, it is only by His power and grace that I am able to stand up against opposition in such a way; And all salvation does belong to the LORD, too. But thank you for the kind words here.



All I have ever quoted to everyone here is the Word of God. Yes, it is true. Jesus sacrifice did change things in the Old Testament, but it did not allow for his saints to be sinners. It doesn't work like that. John says this, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." John also says,, "He that committeth sin is of the devil;" John also says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:7-8, 10).



But this is not in the Bible, though.

Proverbs 28:13 says if we confess and forsake sin we will have mercy.

IF..... IF.... we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). No confessing of sins (serious sins), then there is no forgiveness.

This is also in context to walking in the light, too.

For if we walk in the light as He is in the light, THEN....THEN.... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is talking about keeping His commands. How so? Read 1 John 2:3-4. In 1 John 2:3 it is essentially saying you can have assurance in knowing Him if you find that you are keeping His Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

As for a believer in ceasing from sin: Again, the Bible does teach this. Read again 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and Romans 6:14 closely in prayer.


May God bless you, as well.
And may all good things in Christ Jesus be unto you.

Philippians 1:6