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K
Here is the problem though posthuman, and that is that a number on here who believe in OSAS keep saying we do not have to be obedient to the Lord's teachings and commands. When they do and say this to others that is teaching disobedience which is sin, so even if they don't believe they have a license to sin they still are continuing to deliberately sin by teaching that disobedience.
I would not have an issue with the OSAS doctrine if it did not teach one can continue to be disobedient and still be saved.
That and also how those from that doctrine background constantly on here separate the walk/action in the faith from the faith unto salvation. The works/walk/actions are not what saves but is proof of one who is truly saved !!!
I am not brushing off Colossians 3:1-4 was just making sure you know that 1:22-23 has to be taken into account to understand the full meaning of what is being said, because some like to take and pull scriptures out of the bible and make them stand alone, but what I was showing was that our life is hidden in Christ only if you continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel (eternal life).
I would not have an issue with the OSAS doctrine if it did not teach one can continue to be disobedient and still be saved.
That and also how those from that doctrine background constantly on here separate the walk/action in the faith from the faith unto salvation. The works/walk/actions are not what saves but is proof of one who is truly saved !!!
I am not brushing off Colossians 3:1-4 was just making sure you know that 1:22-23 has to be taken into account to understand the full meaning of what is being said, because some like to take and pull scriptures out of the bible and make them stand alone, but what I was showing was that our life is hidden in Christ only if you continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel (eternal life).
K
First mercy was shown by the Lord in both the OT and the NT, so a last minute death bed acceptance of the Lord would save one in either covenant so it is not a contradiction because the Lord will have mercy on who He will have mercy. (Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15)
It had nothing to do with the new covenant being established by the Lord's death, it had to do with the mercy that the Lord our God showed him for acknowledging who He is and the sinner that he was.
Yes the Lord Jesus died immediately after He stated those words "It is finished," and what was finished was His ushering in the new covenant of grace that reconciles us to God by His blood on the cross.
To receive that remission of sin by His blood the bible gives standards on what to do to receive it, and believe only is not one of them as if you don't repent of your sins the Lord says you will still perish. (Luke 13:3)
Mercy was what the Lord showed the thief, which is part of the three fold commanding that we are told to live by from the Lord. Show love, mercy, and forgiveness to others, and part of that love is to show them sound doctrine by giving the full truth.
It had nothing to do with the new covenant being established by the Lord's death, it had to do with the mercy that the Lord our God showed him for acknowledging who He is and the sinner that he was.
Yes the Lord Jesus died immediately after He stated those words "It is finished," and what was finished was His ushering in the new covenant of grace that reconciles us to God by His blood on the cross.
To receive that remission of sin by His blood the bible gives standards on what to do to receive it, and believe only is not one of them as if you don't repent of your sins the Lord says you will still perish. (Luke 13:3)
Mercy was what the Lord showed the thief, which is part of the three fold commanding that we are told to live by from the Lord. Show love, mercy, and forgiveness to others, and part of that love is to show them sound doctrine by giving the full truth.
K
It has nothing to do with God being powerful enough to keep people saved, because He can if He wants to.
The issue that you all still seem to have is that you do not want to realize that He gives us the free will to chose to serve Him or continue serving our flesh. He does not force anybody to be His disciples, He wants us to love Him and have a relationship with Him freely.
If you believe you are a puppet that God forcefully controls, then why do you still commit sin ???
My faith is completely in the Lord Jesus to which is why I defend all of His teachings, including that of Luke 6:46-49 that shows only those who hear and do what He said have true faith in Him. Those who hear but do not do Jesus says their faith is not rooted in Him and their fall will be great.
The issue that you all still seem to have is that you do not want to realize that He gives us the free will to chose to serve Him or continue serving our flesh. He does not force anybody to be His disciples, He wants us to love Him and have a relationship with Him freely.
If you believe you are a puppet that God forcefully controls, then why do you still commit sin ???
My faith is completely in the Lord Jesus to which is why I defend all of His teachings, including that of Luke 6:46-49 that shows only those who hear and do what He said have true faith in Him. Those who hear but do not do Jesus says their faith is not rooted in Him and their fall will be great.
the faith, and the hope of the gospel are a salvation by faith, through grace, not works -- a free gift to whoever believes.
a free gift is not annulled unless it is refused.
failing to strive to live worthy of the righteousness that's been ascribed to us (not workedby us) is trampling grace, but so is ignoring that it was declared and is not earned.
when we look at Galatians for example, it's not false teachers who were practicing lawless sin who are condemned here as forfeiting the cross -- it's people who were trumping up an outward appearance of goodness as being the key thing, as though grace were of no effect, and that Christ had died for nothing.
there's two sides of the coin here - and it's like whenever any of us look at one, half of us accuse them of ignoring the other.
yes, we need to repent of sin and seek to do good. but this is a response to God's mercy, to walk worthy of what He has called us -- not a way to become worthy of later being called, or to earn His mercy -- because that mercy was already proven to us, and "continuing in the faith" not only means considering ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, but also involves continuing to believe in that mercy. we were ungodly when He died for us, and He justifies the ungodly that does no work but only believes.
"once saved always saved" is a very poor phrasing of the truth. it's begging to be argued about. you've read Jonah, i'm sure -- would you say "once a prophet, always a prophet" is a good summation of the book? it sure leaves a lot of things unclear, and left out entirely - but the fact of the scripture is that even though Jonah tried to run away from what God had purposed him for, and even though he only did the works grudgingly, and even though after he had done the works he still grumbled about it, yes, Jonah was a prophet, and Jonah could not thwart the will of God - even in Jonah's disobedience, God's eye was on Him, and God's hand was on him to chastise and correct.
Jonah was disobedient. Jonah was unthankful. but Jonah never cursed God - and Jonah never prophesied falsely. Jonah was repentant, and eventually Jonah turned around -- not by Jonah's own "free will," but with the Lord's hook in his jaw!
so when i look at this topic, sometimes i think "i don't want the Lord's hook in my jaw!" -- but you know what? sometimes i also thank God for the hook that He puts in my jaw -- because by it i know that He loves me, and that i am His own. a thief drives another mans sheep into a fold they don't belong in - but a a good shepherd rescues them, and it's a good shepherd that pulls his own out of the briars. my Good Shepherd will not leave a single one of His sheep out in the wilderness - even a lost & wounded one, He will look for and bring back, to nurse it again to health. does that mean i intend to go jumping into thorn bushes or tempting wolves? or that i encourage others to? no brother -- it means i have faith in my Shepherd, that's all.
a free gift is not annulled unless it is refused.
failing to strive to live worthy of the righteousness that's been ascribed to us (not workedby us) is trampling grace, but so is ignoring that it was declared and is not earned.
when we look at Galatians for example, it's not false teachers who were practicing lawless sin who are condemned here as forfeiting the cross -- it's people who were trumping up an outward appearance of goodness as being the key thing, as though grace were of no effect, and that Christ had died for nothing.
there's two sides of the coin here - and it's like whenever any of us look at one, half of us accuse them of ignoring the other.
yes, we need to repent of sin and seek to do good. but this is a response to God's mercy, to walk worthy of what He has called us -- not a way to become worthy of later being called, or to earn His mercy -- because that mercy was already proven to us, and "continuing in the faith" not only means considering ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, but also involves continuing to believe in that mercy. we were ungodly when He died for us, and He justifies the ungodly that does no work but only believes.
"once saved always saved" is a very poor phrasing of the truth. it's begging to be argued about. you've read Jonah, i'm sure -- would you say "once a prophet, always a prophet" is a good summation of the book? it sure leaves a lot of things unclear, and left out entirely - but the fact of the scripture is that even though Jonah tried to run away from what God had purposed him for, and even though he only did the works grudgingly, and even though after he had done the works he still grumbled about it, yes, Jonah was a prophet, and Jonah could not thwart the will of God - even in Jonah's disobedience, God's eye was on Him, and God's hand was on him to chastise and correct.
Jonah was disobedient. Jonah was unthankful. but Jonah never cursed God - and Jonah never prophesied falsely. Jonah was repentant, and eventually Jonah turned around -- not by Jonah's own "free will," but with the Lord's hook in his jaw!
so when i look at this topic, sometimes i think "i don't want the Lord's hook in my jaw!" -- but you know what? sometimes i also thank God for the hook that He puts in my jaw -- because by it i know that He loves me, and that i am His own. a thief drives another mans sheep into a fold they don't belong in - but a a good shepherd rescues them, and it's a good shepherd that pulls his own out of the briars. my Good Shepherd will not leave a single one of His sheep out in the wilderness - even a lost & wounded one, He will look for and bring back, to nurse it again to health. does that mean i intend to go jumping into thorn bushes or tempting wolves? or that i encourage others to? no brother -- it means i have faith in my Shepherd, that's all.
E
you are backpeddling so hard, your calves will swing to the other side of your legs...not to mention speaking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.
You are hung up on the old and the new covenants, to the point you do not seem able to see the old was a black and white picture of the one that was to be.
Faith is what saves...and irregardless of which covenant one believes themself to be living in....faith attains salvation...it was so from the beginning, it is so now and it will be so when the final curtain is drawn.
God does not distinguish salvation like works people do, for the very simple reason that He does not acknowledge your works.
Unfortuneately, you fail to deliver sound doctrine because you have delivered yourself into a smorgasbord of mismatched scriptures that have been sadly joined together and no longer are effective in the setting in which they were first introduced.
There is no new covenant of grace. Without grace being extended by God from the garden on, the race He created would be extinct.
The entire Bible is demonstrative of the grace of God. Only someone who believes the law is meant to save by hitching oneself to it, would say otherwise
discipline is for sons and daughters, not strangers.
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son?
It says,
It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined — and everyone undergoes discipline — then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
(Hebrews 12:5-13)
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
(Hebrews 12:5-13)
discipline is for sons and daughters, not strangers.
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son?
It says,
It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined — and everyone undergoes discipline — then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
(Hebrews 12:5-13)
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
(Hebrews 12:5-13)
B
>>>>>In Matthew 7:21 God tell us that “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.". I am confused now, so is work now required for salvation? From what I understand, the thief at the cross get a really good deal, he dies immediately after getting saved by Christ. Christian being alive today were being tested in different ways, there is a possibility we can lose our faith if we do not passed those test. (WARNING: THE PREVIOUS STATEMENT MIGHT BE FALSE, THIS IS ONLY MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE SO FAR). But just for the sake of discussion, in Romans 10:13 God saids "“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” So what is it? <<<<<
Yes WORK is evidence of your FAITH
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.…
Notice in Matthew 7 the Jesus is saying "DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER"....so there must be more to it than "I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sin", wouldn't you say?
Yes WORK is evidence of your FAITH
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.…
Notice in Matthew 7 the Jesus is saying "DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER"....so there must be more to it than "I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sin", wouldn't you say?
K
There should be no confusion on this at all as we should not look at the thief on the cross as an example to not have to follow and obey the Lord's teachings. Apostles Paul and Peter speak on this that do no use liberty or grace for an occasion/excuse to keep sinning.
There is a big difference between a person who comes to Christ on their death bed then with those of us who profess Him as our Lord and Savior for years.
The bible says our faith will be tested, now what is the purpose of testing our faith to make sure it is true if you can never lose that faith? There would be no need for faith to be tested if one can not walk away, but the bible makes it clear we still have free will to chose.
Some want to try so hard to say faith alone saves and they use scriptures such as Ephesians 2:8-9 to support their stance, but the problem is that scripture is speaking the grace of God by sending His Son to die on the cross for us. We did nothing to deserve that grace and love shown to us, and this has nothing to do with how our faith in the Lord is to look and be like.
Works do not save but they are the proof of one who is saved, and the bible makes it clear if you continue to live as you did before you accepted Christ then you have not been saved.
There is a big difference between a person who comes to Christ on their death bed then with those of us who profess Him as our Lord and Savior for years.
The bible says our faith will be tested, now what is the purpose of testing our faith to make sure it is true if you can never lose that faith? There would be no need for faith to be tested if one can not walk away, but the bible makes it clear we still have free will to chose.
Some want to try so hard to say faith alone saves and they use scriptures such as Ephesians 2:8-9 to support their stance, but the problem is that scripture is speaking the grace of God by sending His Son to die on the cross for us. We did nothing to deserve that grace and love shown to us, and this has nothing to do with how our faith in the Lord is to look and be like.
Works do not save but they are the proof of one who is saved, and the bible makes it clear if you continue to live as you did before you accepted Christ then you have not been saved.
K
I am not backpeddling at all as the thief on the cross was an example of mercy shown by the Lord not the new covenant of grace.
You seem to say faith alone saves, but answer these questions:
1) If you do not repent of your sins will you still get salvation?
2) If you do not get born again (baptized) do you still get salvation?
3) If you deny to help others in need do you still get salvation?
4) If you do not walk in love and continue to live sinfully will you still get salvation?
Please answer those questions so I know where you stand, because I know scriptures that say no to all of these.
Yes there is a difference but the working is because of faith, not salvation, as salvation is a promised gift that comes after one has kept the faith enduring this world and doing the will of God in their lives. Eternal life is a promise to those who have faith in Jesus Christ !!!
E
KennethCThere should be no confusion on this at all as we should not look at the thief on the cross as an example to not have to follow and obey the Lord's teachings. Apostles Paul and Peter speak on this that do no use liberty or grace for an occasion/excuse to keep sinning.
We are not confused...are you? NO ONE has EVER said to look at the thief as Christianity Norm...apart from the grace of God extending salvation even to him.
You are creating a scenerio in which you may find yourself cast as the only living person who ever thought such things as no one here has given evidence of that which appears to frustrate you in your efforts to make clear you think we should stop sinning which we all agree with and did so long before you appeared
There is a big difference between a person who comes to Christ on their death bed then with those of us who profess Him as our Lord and Savior for years.
There is no difference whatsoever in the eyes of God. check out the story about the wages of the men who were hired...one worked all day and the other came in at the last hour...they received the same wages. So, who yuh gonna believe, the Bible or another attempt at saying what you think no one but you knows when in actuality we all know it ...
The bible says our faith will be tested, now what is the purpose of testing our faith to make sure it is true if you can never lose that faith? There would be no need for faith to be tested if one can not walk away, but the bible makes it clear we still have free will to chose.
My faith has been tested over and over and probably mostly by Christians. You CANNOT loose faith when it is given by God freely to all who ask...the Bible says we are drawn by the Spirit of God...EVERYTHING good comes from God. You were not born with the faith required by God for salvation...
Why do you reason FOR God? He does not test our faith to prove something to Himself!!! That is a very bad conclusion.
God tests our faith for US!!! God already knows where our faith is...He does not need a test to find out
Some want to try so hard to say faith alone saves and they use scriptures such as Ephesians 2:8-9 to support their stance, but the problem is that scripture is speaking the grace of God by sending His Son to die on the cross for us. We did nothing to deserve that grace and love shown to us, and this has nothing to do with how our faith in the Lord is to look and be like.
Nobody is saying that and you cannot stop saying that or you would have nothing to write about. FAITH, THE FAITH THAT SAVES, IS IN JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD..It is not in our efforts nor is it in our words. Our faith is in what God has done for us through Christ...you appear to see faith as some sort of agent apart from both God as the giver and Christ as the end of our faith in that He has fulfilled ALL obligations in order for us to be forgiven. Yeah. I know. So complicated. phew
Works do not save but they are the proof of one who is saved, and the bible makes it clear if you continue to live as you did before you accepted Christ then you have not been saved.
Who said otherwise? NO ONE that's who!!!
We are not confused...are you? NO ONE has EVER said to look at the thief as Christianity Norm...apart from the grace of God extending salvation even to him.
You are creating a scenerio in which you may find yourself cast as the only living person who ever thought such things as no one here has given evidence of that which appears to frustrate you in your efforts to make clear you think we should stop sinning which we all agree with and did so long before you appeared
There is a big difference between a person who comes to Christ on their death bed then with those of us who profess Him as our Lord and Savior for years.
There is no difference whatsoever in the eyes of God. check out the story about the wages of the men who were hired...one worked all day and the other came in at the last hour...they received the same wages. So, who yuh gonna believe, the Bible or another attempt at saying what you think no one but you knows when in actuality we all know it ...
The bible says our faith will be tested, now what is the purpose of testing our faith to make sure it is true if you can never lose that faith? There would be no need for faith to be tested if one can not walk away, but the bible makes it clear we still have free will to chose.
My faith has been tested over and over and probably mostly by Christians. You CANNOT loose faith when it is given by God freely to all who ask...the Bible says we are drawn by the Spirit of God...EVERYTHING good comes from God. You were not born with the faith required by God for salvation...
Why do you reason FOR God? He does not test our faith to prove something to Himself!!! That is a very bad conclusion.
God tests our faith for US!!! God already knows where our faith is...He does not need a test to find out
Some want to try so hard to say faith alone saves and they use scriptures such as Ephesians 2:8-9 to support their stance, but the problem is that scripture is speaking the grace of God by sending His Son to die on the cross for us. We did nothing to deserve that grace and love shown to us, and this has nothing to do with how our faith in the Lord is to look and be like.
Nobody is saying that and you cannot stop saying that or you would have nothing to write about. FAITH, THE FAITH THAT SAVES, IS IN JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD..It is not in our efforts nor is it in our words. Our faith is in what God has done for us through Christ...you appear to see faith as some sort of agent apart from both God as the giver and Christ as the end of our faith in that He has fulfilled ALL obligations in order for us to be forgiven. Yeah. I know. So complicated. phew
Works do not save but they are the proof of one who is saved, and the bible makes it clear if you continue to live as you did before you accepted Christ then you have not been saved.
Who said otherwise? NO ONE that's who!!!
K
Are you now changing your stance because it was you and a couple others who have tried to use and say the thief on the cross is an example of salvation under the new covenant. Especially when baptism is brought up !!!
The parable of the wages for the workers rather they worked their whole life or came in later in life and still did the same work in the field are the same, but this does not apply to those who profess Jesus as their Lord but then do not do the work He taught and commanded us to do. They followed what was said rather early in life and continued in it, or later in life, as their is no amount of time required to be a disciple of Christ.
However it still falls on rather you walk in obedience to the gospel or not !!!
The testing of our faith is help us grown in the faith of Christ unto the hope of receiving eternal live through Him.
Apostle Paul makes this clear in Romans 5:3-4, James 1:2-4 says it produces endurance, and 1 Peter 1:6-7 says that by us standing firm in times of testing proves your faith to be true.
You keep saying nobody is saying that but you are exactly one of the ones who keeps disputing with me when all I am doing is speaking on the fruits of the Spirit that will be evident in true born again believers actions, speech, and treatment of others.
If how you are speaking or treating another is not by love, mercy, and forgiveness then it is not of the Holy Spirit.
You keep saying not of our own actions, but walking by the fruits of the Spirit and following the Lord's teaching and commands is not our own actions. They are done out of obedience by love do to the Holy Spirit who is in us !!!
His fruits are shown in our actions proving a true faith !!!
E
You know kenneth...trying to have an honest discussion with you is futile.
I never said the thief on the cross was an example of anything BUT God's grace.
At this point, I am not sure if you are trying so hard to 'win' that you are forgetting what you have posted, or the type of cherry picked verse theology you appear to ascribe to, is upsetting you because you cannot remember the sequence in which you post verses
I'm just going to say that it appears you prefer to talk AT people rather than exchange any ideas or even disagreements
It seems most have dropped out of the conversation here and I am going to do the same...nothing fruitful is going on IMO
For the record, I also never said a single thing about baptism in this thread...in fact I never bring it up unless it is a thread concerning baptism
K
You should look at your own advice because you have been speaking AT me as well, and accusing me of doing what I am not doing. I have never accused you of something you did not say, as the whole concept of the thief being brought up was because he was once again used as an example of grace under the new covenant.
I know what I have said in the past because I continue to repeat the same things over and over again do to those who continue to pass false allegations toward me. How many times do I have to ask people to please stop saying I preach works to earn or maintain salvation before they listen and stop ???
Did I say you said anything about baptism? No, I said that the thief is an example that those who try to say you don't have to be baptized use to not get baptized under the new covenant.
God bless in your walk, and I will pray the Holy Spirit keeps guiding you in the faith.......