If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[KennethC]

If you disagreed with the Catholics why did you stay 5 years? And actually we are told to judge ALL things by the word.....sorry if your offended Kenneth, but you regularly reject truth that proves you are in error.....receive it or not!

[h=1]Matthew 7:1-2[/h]7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.



1 Corinthians 4:5

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[slave]

There is much truth being spoken here. But with two angles to the same issue which is right? As ministers of the Word, the people that are focused on being faithful to their view are approved by God in the Spirit. Those who are not correct are not supported by the Spirit of God from within, but from a outsourced influence. The Christian here is on task not of relentless harassment, but of faithful effort, to offer hope for God's Spirit to speak to those lost, I see people being drained for Gods sake., And this not on the merits of themselves but on the calling of God Himself. The people, if you honestly look at the thread, that post with the demeanor of God and show the beatitudes in their character are those bearing His fruit.

As the faithful ones are erecting the standard of Jesus Christ for the other, in love, they are being called to say, based on God's authority: "But we can never be that!" The faithful here that I see, are continuing to drive it home, [again in love with Gods backing]: "But God says you must be!" But there is a truth we all must eventually rest on scripturally indeed...."How can we be?" "YOU CANNOT, UNLESS YOU HAVE A NEW SPIRIT." And Jesus says He will give you a new Spirit if you ask Him. Luke 11:13.

For the faithful in this journey, it is not our job to convict. Simply to give truth unabashed for the purpose of reconciliation.... To give the whole of the truth and not part. To raise man to Gods standards and not bring God down to mans level of experiential relativity. to human reason Him out into a false self-righteous doctrine of religion, claiming prize to it's rightful place as the right religion.

It is the job of the Holy Spirit to awaken conviction where as yet there is none. I pray for a revelation! Gods Word has been planted. His truths have been outlined. It is time for some to respond to Gods calling. If we do this the creative redemption of God will be at work in the souls of men, [and here inlays my prayer] and when the Spirit of God begins to work on their hearts they see a standard they will have never seen before.


Praising God is the ultimate end and aim of all we go thru.It is not that we are pleased with the view of God, but rather that we are pleasing to the ears and eyes of God.


"I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." Once let Jesus Christ be lifted up, and the Spirit of God creates the need for Him.

I have been praying for all of CC, and I will continue to do so, not figuratively, from love and for the sake of love. My message is for anyone calling themselves Christian to clock in on our knees. For regardless of what side we start on this issue we both in principle agree this is the right thing to do-correct?!! This is the reality pit stop.

 

[elf3]

It is not me that keeps me from sin but the Holy Spirit in me that keeps me from sin. But, every now and then I start feeling good about myself and "me" takes over and I sin. The Holy Spirit then has to come shake me and say "what the heck are you doing?". I then need to repent of my sin.

If we were able to fall from God's hands the the Holy Spirit would not be there to "stop" us. That would then be an indifference by God but He is not indifferent towards His children. God is not indifferent towards those He has saved.

 

[KennethC]

When I came to Christ is was not me drawing to God but God drawing me to Him. John 6:65 "And He said "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father.". John 6:43 "Jesus therefore answered and said to them , "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.". John 10:28,29 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatched them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one.".

3 times Jesus tells us we are given to Him by the Father. Jesus also tells us that once given no one can snatch us out of His hands. So if we are given by God and no one can remove us from His hands what does that tell you? Does that then mean we are able to lose our salvation? How can we lose our salvation if we cannot remove ourselves from His hands? The term we use is "born again". How can one be "unborn"? If God chose me then I cannot unchoose God because once chosen He tells me that no one can remove me.

Those we see as "falling away" were never in God's hands to begin with. They put on a "good show" but we're never truly in Christ.

This is how I came to Christ, proven by Scripture. This is why I believe in OSAS proven by Scripture.

We are drawn to Jesus by God through His word, and this is shown in Romans 10:17 that our faith comes from hearing the word of God.

The part of nobody being able to snatch them out of His hands is after we have been raised on the last day and given eternal life. While still in the flesh we still contend for the faith (Jude 1:3) seeking for the hope of eternal life through the Lord (Romans 2:7, Titus 1:2, 3:7).

For if we fall away (Matthew 24:10), depart from (1 Timothy 4:1), not continue in the faith (Colossians 1:22-23), and wanders from the Truth (James 5:19) their soul will not be saved.

What did Apostle Paul say to the Galatians, did he say they were never truly in Christ to begin with ???

No he said he was amazed that they were leaving the gospel of Christ to follow after another false gospel teaching. (Galatians 1:6)

 

[Jason0047]

Get your dictionary, canons not cannons.

Yes, I was joking. Hence, why I also immediately said, "nor have I gone beyond what is written in God's Word." (Which was in reference to the canon and not cannons part).

 

[Sirk]

A few typically denotes 3 while it looks like you posted "several" questions.

 

[Sirk]

I come back, take a peek, and the same one chord song is STILL playing. Kudos Jason.... for being the most obstinate one track minded mental case...... around here at least.

 

[elf3]

We are drawn to Jesus by God through His word, and this is shown in Romans 10:17 that our faith comes from hearing the word of God.

The part of nobody being able to snatch them out of His hands is after we have been raised on the last day and given eternal life. While still in the flesh we still contend for the faith (Jude 1:3) seeking for the hope of eternal life through the Lord (Romans 2:7, Titus 1:2, 3:7).

For if we fall away (Matthew 24:10), depart from (1 Timothy 4:1), not continue in the faith (Colossians 1:22-23), and wanders from the Truth (James 5:19) their soul will not be saved.

What did Apostle Paul say to the Galatians, did he say they were never truly in Christ to begin with ???

No he said he was amazed that they were leaving the gospel of Christ to follow after another false gospel teaching. (Galatians 1:6)

No we are drawn to God by God. He speaks to us through His Word but if He doesn't draw you, you will never come too Him. Do you truly think you have the ability to go to God without God? You miss the part where Jesus says "neither" meaning once we are in God's hands we cannot leave God's hands. Jesus doesn't say "after" he says "neither".

Yes because they never truly accepted the Gospel to begin with. If we can be so easily swayed to follow a false Gospel it means we never truly believed the real one in the first place.

 

[slave]

When I receive a gift, especially a gift of value, I feel the need to respond by showing thanks with a thank you and a thank you card. Today , we don't do the Thank you card in practice like we did in my day, but it still is a thing I feel to respond with. The two acts on my part are not a law to earn the gift I have already received- that would be silly to even consider. And it is not expected by the gift giver either, but the understanding of God to know the placement of heart to the fruit is of importance.. But it is the natural response of my thankfulness Spirit in me that responds in a fashion depicting the Spirit of thankfulness... And I respond for I want to and I need to, to complete my resolve in my appreciation, not as a burden but as a pleasurable opportunity.

In the same way, if we are in Christ, His spirit of thankfulness is now in me to appropriate the card, [don't get stuck up on the specifics of the card or the thank you, but on the actions of the spirit of thanksgiving, for the illustration is only in comparison to] to not do so would not complete my joy in the process of receiving the gift. At no point has any rules been outlined. But an inner peace has been given instead because I have engulfed and fused with the spirit of thankfulness, I've received this spirit of thanksgiving from the spirits understanding of the value of the gift itself.

So, the supporters of OSAS are saying it is not necessary or even possible to give that natural reaction of the thank you card as illustrated here. Claiming the spirit of Thanksgiving is asking something unneeded,

But if sin is doing without God, how does this not present a problem to the original problem of man found in sinful nature having sin contaminating them from Gods presence? If sin is wrong "being" and not wrong "doing", how can the righteousness of God avail man into His presence regardless of Gods grace and mercy to overshadow sins particulars if man himself is the being off sin; Unconfessed?? If anything outside of choosing God with our will [faithfulness] is a sin, and the wages of sin is death, we are to recycle Gods death on a cross how? God said it is finished. But there is a condition to this finished placement of success for us.. If we stay on the bridge! The solid capable bridge. If we stay clothed in Christ, as that bridge.

Christ does not have a schizophrenic personality in His demeanor or fruit bearing. The Word testifies to this in relationship to the tree and it's branches.

It takes a spirit of unreason not to adopt Gods reasoning here to me. It all comes down to faith in the clear Word of God. Are we to be faithful? If not be for warned!

 

[slave]

My "Thank you card" is Obedience.

 

[elf3]

When I receive a gift, especially a gift of value, I feel the need to respond by showing thanks with a thank you and a thank you card. Today , we don't do the Thank you card in practice like we did in my day, but it still is a thing I feel to respond with. The two acts on my part are not a law to earn the gift I have already received- that would be silly to even consider. And it is not expected by the gift giver either, but the understanding of God to know the placement of heart to the fruit is of importance.. But it is the natural response of my thankfulness Spirit in me that responds in a fashion depicting the Spirit of thankfulness... And I respond for I want to and I need to, to complete my resolve in my appreciation, not as a burden but as a pleasurable opportunity.

In the same way, if we are in Christ, His spirit of thankfulness is now in me to appropriate the card, [don't get stuck up on the specifics of the card or the thank you, but on the actions of the spirit of thanksgiving, for the illustration is only in comparison to] to not do so would not complete my joy in the process of receiving the gift. At no point has any rules been outlined. But an inner peace has been given instead because I have engulfed and fused with the spirit of thankfulness, I've received this spirit of thanksgiving from the spirits understanding of the value of the gift itself.

So, the supporters of OSAS are saying it is not necessary or even possible to give that natural reaction of the thank you card as illustrated here. Claiming the spirit of Thanksgiving is asking something unneeded,

But if sin is doing without God, how does this not present a problem to the original problem of man found in sinful nature having sin contaminating them from Gods presence? If sin is wrong "being" and not wrong "doing", how can the righteousness of God avail man into His presence regardless of Gods grace and mercy to overshadow sins particulars if man himself is the being off sin; Unconfessed?? If anything outside of choosing God with our will [faithfulness] is a sin, and the wages of sin is death, we are to recycle Gods death on a cross how? God said it is finished. But there is a condition to this finished placement of success for us.. If we stay on the bridge! The solid capable bridge. If we stay clothed in Christ, as that bridge.

Christ does not have a schizophrenic personality in His demeanor or fruit bearing. The Word testifies to this in relationship to the tree and it's branches.

It takes a spirit of unreason not to adopt Gods reasoning here to me. It all comes down to faith in the clear Word of God. Are we to be faithful? If not be for warned!

When did I or anyone who believes in OSAS say it's not necessary or possible to give God a "thank you card"? I thank God every day for all He has done for me. I rely on the Holy Spirit to keep me from sin. I am not sure where you got that from.

 

[M33]

I believe the issue of OSAS comes down to being born again. This is a sincere individual repentance, asking Jesus to be Lord and Savior, and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Simply put, this is rejecting the Holy Spirit and His desire to indwell the believer. Once we are born again, and filled with the Spirit, No one can "Snatch us out of His Hand."

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. [SUP]28 [/SUP]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, who has given them to me,[SUP][a][/SUP] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and the Father are one.”

This does not mean we quit sinning. The Apostle Paul, who was indwelt with the Spirit, addresses the conflict of being born again and sin...

Romans 7:15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

And remember, he preached against works, and salvation by faith. (see below) If one sins to the extent that he blasphemes (rejects) the Holy Spirit, then a sincere repentance, acknowledgment, and acceptance may still be needed...
But I believe that it is not possible to evict the Holy Spirit, once He has a home within the believer...

Maranatha

 

[KennethC]

No we are drawn to God by God. He speaks to us through His Word but if He doesn't draw you, you will never come too Him. Do you truly think you have the ability to go to God without God? You miss the part where Jesus says "neither" meaning once we are in God's hands we cannot leave God's hands. Jesus doesn't say "after" he says "neither".

Yes because they never truly accepted the Gospel to begin with. If we can be so easily swayed to follow a false Gospel it means we never truly believed the real one in the first place.

That is what you have been taught to understand but even in that same passage from John 6:43-45, that it says they will be drawn and taught by His word.

It is by the word of God we are drawn and brought to the Lord having our faith established in Him that will show out in action by the fruits of the Spirit.

Then it says in verse 47 those who believe in Him has everlasting life, and taking with Luke 6:46-49 Jesus says those who believe in Him are those who come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does it.

Also in Galatians is not the only place Apostle Paul says believers will be drawn away by false teaching or sin, as he repeats this also in Acts 20:28-31, 1 Timothy 4:1, Colossians 1:22-23, and Romans 11:19-22.

Apostle Jude's whole epistle is a warning to believers to watch out and not fall for false teaching..............

 

[KennethC]

I believe the issue of OSAS comes down to being born again. This is a sincere individual repentance, asking Jesus to be Lord and Savior, and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Simply put, this is rejecting the Holy Spirit and His desire to indwell the believer. Once we are born again, and filled with the Spirit, No one can "Snatch us out of His Hand."

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. [SUP]28 [/SUP]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, who has given them to me,[SUP][a][/SUP] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and the Father are one.”

This does not mean we quit sinning. The Apostle Paul, who was indwelt with the Spirit, addresses the conflict of being born again and sin...

Romans 7:15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

And remember, he preached against works, and salvation by faith. (see below) If one sins to the extent that he blasphemes (rejects) the Holy Spirit, then a sincere repentance, acknowledgment, and acceptance may still be needed...
But I believe that it is not possible to evict the Holy Spirit, once He has a home within the believer...

Maranatha

Lord Jesus clearly said that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, so no repentance will forgive you of committing that sin. Jesus said He will forgive all other sins but that one !!!

Also Apostle Paul shows in Romans 8 that do have salvation through the Lord he could not continue to walk as he did in chapter 7. Romans 7 was not Paul explaining his current state in the faith, he was showing how he was once carnal and sold under sin because of the law.

 

[elf3]

That is what you have been taught to understand but even in that same passage from John 6:43-45, that it says they will be drawn and taught by His word.

It is by the word of God we are drawn and brought to the Lord having our faith established in Him that will show out in action by the fruits of the Spirit.

Then it says in verse 47 those who believe in Him has everlasting life, and taking with Luke 6:46-49 Jesus says those who believe in Him are those who come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does it.

Also in Galatians is not the only place Apostle Paul says believers will be drawn away by false teaching or sin, as he repeats this also in Acts 20:28-31, 1 Timothy 4:1, Colossians 1:22-23, and Romans 11:19-22.

Apostle Jude's whole epistle is a warning to believers to watch out and not fall for false teaching..............

But in the same argument you have been taught you can lose your salvation correct? And what is the Word of God? The Word of God is God so therefore God is drawing you too Him. You cannot understand the Word of God without the Holy Spirit (God) so it is God who draws you.

And I never said I don't do the Word of God. I live my life every day for God. And as I have said before I rely on the Holy Spirit to keep me from sin. If we are left to our own we would still be bound to sin. God (Father) draws us, God (Jesus) saves us and God (Holy Spirit) guides us.

 

[Nick01]

I think my actual position is a little more nuanced than what you think OSAS is, Jason, but I'll bite.

Answers:

1. I'd like clarification by what you mean by 'out of fellowship', but I would say a saved person will always seek fellowship with other believers.

2. Yes. One's salvation is not contingent on repenting of every individual sin. By your logic, would someone who died suddenly without repenting of a specific sin, or even being aware of a specific sin they had committed, be condemned entirely on the basis of that specific sin?

3. I don't see what they have to do with each other. Care to explain your reasoning?

4. How is Jesus' 'sinning no more' compatible with the other writings of the gospels, and in the letters of Paul and John in particular, where continued humbling and repentance, as well as a continually movement towards being more 'Christ-like? The answer is: a saved person will feel convicted to move away from sin, and will be convicted to repent, but that does not mean that we suddenly become unable to sin, or that our salvation is contingent on no longer sinning.

5. Repentance and confession is more than itemising sin, but about much more. It is about recognising our sin as a part of our natures, and not merely a series of acts. that does not mean it is not good to confess individual sins, but our forgiveness is not contingent on itemisation. The fact that the blood of Christ covers over our sin is not a license to continue sinning - quite the opposite.

6. It comes from God through the believer, who is regenerated not by their own effort but by the gift of God. I don't think I've ever accused someone in believing in Works Salvation because they believe the fruit comes from God, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Sounds like a non sequiter to me.

7. To do good, of course. And yes, God wants us to live in holiness.

8. I don't think the point of the prodigal is talking about that. Parables, like metaphors, are not meant to run on all fours. The point of the story is the son being forgiven despite all the material wrong he had caused his father. Was he saved when he went prodigal? I think that's beyond the scope of the parable. It's a fun question, tho, to consider whether he was ever going to NOT come home

And yes, I think goodness and morality are extremely important. Paul tells us God has saved us by grace through faith to walk in the good deeds he has prepared in advance for us to do. That is, at least in part, the point of our salvation.

9. Easy - he doesn't. But the point, of course, is that sin still exists. That's just reality. And even Christians still sin, no matter how less frequently.

10. They are changed, or at least should be. That doesn't mean that a believer magically becomes perfect - if that was a requirement, there is not a single true believer who has ever lived.

 

[Jason0047]

Question #8. Do you believe the Prodigal Son was still saved when he went Prodigal?

He was still his father's son. And you know what drew him back? He knew that He was still loved - and would be accepted even as a sinner. In fact, the father ran to meet him half way. He must have been watching.

And so does my heavenly Father do so to me when I wander away. He watches, and once you know His love, you will return to it. All else will seem empty once you know!

Technically speaking the father of all mankind is the Heavenly Father because He created all things thru Christ (Second person of the Godhead). However, it is obvious that not everyone is saved even though all people have a Heavenly Father that desires to be with them and look after them. The Heavenly Father does not force salvation on anyone. It is their choice. For there is....

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:5-6).

 

[M33]

I didn't word the first point very well. If someone believes they are born again, but rejects the authority of the Holy Spirit, they still need to be born again, because they clearly aren't truly saved. A hardening of the heart for a life long blaspheming of the Holy Spirit is an eternal condemnation, as you point out.

Our walk does change, but we are still indwelt with sin. Notice that Paul is not talking in the past tense in Romans 7, but in the present tense. In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord points out that "Hate is Spiritual murder, and lust is spiritual adultery." We, as believers, are still fighting against these issues. Though our heart is changed to hating to sin, we still do, and the effects of our sin nature are still in our flesh, as long as we live in this world, and in the flesh.

Maranatha

 

[KennethC]

But in the same argument you have been taught you can lose your salvation correct? And what is the Word of God? The Word of God is God so therefore God is drawing you too Him. You cannot understand the Word of God without the Holy Spirit (God) so it is God who draws you.

And I never said I don't do the Word of God. I live my life every day for God. And as I have said before I rely on the Holy Spirit to keep me from sin. If we are left to our own we would still be bound to sin. God (Father) draws us, God (Jesus) saves us and God (Holy Spirit) guides us.

I never said you didn't do the word of God in your life, and I know it is God Himself that draws us to Him, and that it is by His word.

I have been lead by the Holy Spirit that believers can lose their chance at receiving salvation because those scriptures I gave previously from Acts 20:28-31, 1 Timothy 4:1, Colossians 1:22-23, and Romans 11:19-22 show from Paul's own words that these believers that fall away from the faith do not receive eternal life.

The problem I have with the osas doctrine is it misuses the scriptures in John to say the eternal life is a physical possession of ours now, but when applied to John's epistle it he says the eternal life we have now is by the Holy Spirit who abides in us and an assurance that we will receive it at the day of redemption.

Eternal life is physically given to us on the last day called the day of redemption or gathering !!!

To make it a physical possession already would pit Jesus words against Paul's, as Paul shows multiple time that salvation/eternal life is a promised gift we hope and seek to receive by continuing in the faith tell the end. Apostle Peter also clearly says salvation is the ending result of our faith (1 Peter 1:9).

 

[KennethC]

I didn't word the first point very well. If someone believes they are born again, but rejects the authority of the Holy Spirit, they still need to be born again, because they clearly aren't truly saved. A hardening of the heart for a life long blaspheming of the Holy Spirit is an eternal condemnation, as you point out.

Our walk does change, but we are still indwelt with sin. Notice that Paul is not talking in the past tense in Romans 7, but in the present tense. In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord points out that "Hate is Spiritual murder, and lust is spiritual adultery." We, as believers, are still fighting against these issues. Though our heart is changed to hating to sin, we still do, and the effects of our sin nature are still in our flesh, as long as we live in this world, and in the flesh.

Maranatha

No Apostle Paul is not talking in the present tense in Romans 7, and we can clearly see this because in verse 14 he says he is carnal sold under sin.

But in Romans 8 he says in verse 6 that the carnal way leads to eternal death and not eternal life.

Romans 7 can not be present tense if he calls himself carnal in that chapter but then shows in Romans 8 he could not continue to be that way or it would lead to eternal death. This has been a bad teaching for sometime now to make Romans 7 a present tense in Paul's walk, and it was done by false teachers to make a sinful lifestyle still acceptable among believers. But the bible completely teaches against an everyday sinful nature to continue, and says the Holy Spirit will guide us away from that kind of thinking and to abstain from sin.