Evidence of the Spirit with the Believer

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V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#21
#21
convallaria said:
We know that the gifts of God including tongues have not ceased.
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Actually, that's nothing more than opinion. Facts are not in evidence proving they are active.

convallaria said:
... Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel it is significant that those who attacked some of us for speaking in tongues have so far been unable to demonstrate either the fruit of the Spirit as above, or to testify of the gifts of the Spirit given to them by God at some point after conversion.
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The issue is not what gifts we have, but whether the "signs-and-wonders gifts" you claim for yourself are valid for today. To argue against them being valid, we are not required to list our gifts.

convallaria said:
Now, please tell me, am I wrong to conclude that the tongue-haters, on this basis, are not born again?
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Yes, you are dead wrong. Heretofore, you have grudgingly stated several times that tongues is not a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but this question alone denies that is actually your real opinion.

convallaria said:
Because if this is the case, the broad church membership is in a very sorry state.
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Unfortunately, that is a very true statement, but not for the reasons you have listed.
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#22
#22
LT said:
Hopefully this thread will be more productive than the one it is 'spinning off' of.

Is the evidence of the Spirit the signs or the fruit? Both. Signs are not necessarily 'fruit', but fruit will include signs. those operating in the Holy Spirit SHOULD be also operating in signs; healing, words of knowledge, interpretations, casting out demons, etc.

We know that signs can come from even the Evil One, as they are prophesied to before the End,
Therefore, though signs can, and often do, accompany the presence of the Spirit, the TRUE evidence of the Spirit is not in signs, but in the Fruit of the Spirit.

Second issue is: are signs meant to encourage Believers, or meant to reach out to the unsaved? Again, both, but mostly the latter.
The Word shows that the edifying gifts are for Believers. Sign gifts are unto, and for, the lost sheep
to bring them to the fold.
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So why do I get the feeling that you already know the answers to your questions, but are asking for the sake of debate??
Maggie
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#23
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#23
Signs are for Israel or the Jews. Joel specifically describes how when the end of the age is at hand Israel will fulfill what was only started at Pentecost. Signs in the heavens are for Israel. Visions are for Israel.

The Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh so here the Gentiles and Israel both receive the Holy Spirit when they receive Jesus as Messiah and Savior.

I have great concern for those who mishandle the word of God especially in Mark 16. Playing with deadly snakes and drinking poison is tempting God. Do not ever do these things to demonstrate your "spirituality".

Our mission is to give our testimony to the lost that they might see Christ in us and come to Him for salvation. Other than that we might as well not be here.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#24
#24
LT said:
Hopefully this thread will be more productive than the one it is 'spinning off' of.

Is the evidence of the Spirit the signs or the fruit?

We know that signs can come from even the Evil One, as they are prophesied to before the End,
Therefore, though signs can, and often do, accompany the presence of the Spirit, the TRUE evidence of the Spirit is not in signs, but in the Fruit of the Spirit.

Second issue is: are signs meant to encourage Believers, or meant to reach out to the unsaved?
The Word shows that the edifying gifts are for Believers. Sign gifts are unto, and for, the lost sheep
to bring them to the fold.
Click to expand...

The evidence that one has the Holy Spirit is by the fruits which will be very evident in all born again believers.

The gifts of the Spirit are not necessarily proof as not all believers will be given the same gifts, so to try and look for tongues or prophecy, or such to prove one is saved is the wrong approach to take as we all will not have those same gifts in us. They are given as God chooses to fulfill His will !!!
 
L

LT

Guest
#25
#25
MaggieMye said:
So why do I get the feeling that you already know the answers to your questions, but are asking for the sake of debate??
Maggie
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It is a question to be discussed.
I also had been forming an opinion on it, which I incorporated into the post.

Without a good "guideline" question, a productive conversation is rather difficult.
I do understand your concern though. There are posters who use the "question format" as a way to push an agenda.
But I think you see that this thread has thus far been very productive, and not negative. I would like to consider that as a fruit of good intention.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#26
Feb 24, 2009
3,105
1,049
113
New Zealand
#26
convallaria said:
SUMMARY
OK so now we can reflect on what we have learned during the course of this discussion on this thread and the others.
We know that the gifts of God including tongues have not ceased. We know also that tongues are not essential to salvation. We also know, however, that the Holy Spirit IS essential to salvation, because as the scripture says, he who has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His. Also John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ok so what remains is to establish evidence on here BESIDES speaking in tongues, according to the scriptures, particularly those in Mark 16 (casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead etc.,) and those 9 gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 as follows:
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:



We also know that another sure sign of the Holy Spirit indwelling is some evidence of the fruit of the Spirit, as in Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel it is significant that those who attacked some of us for speaking in tongues have so far been unable to demonstrate either the fruit of the Spirit as above, or to testify of the gifts of the Spirit given to them by God at some point after conversion.


Now, please tell me, am I wrong to conclude that the tongue-haters, on this basis, are not born again? Because if this is the case, the broad church membership is in a very sorry state.
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You know, you have concluded that 'we' know the perfect thing is jesus' secomd coming.

Aside from the fact you didnt get into that much depth explaining why it is jesus, you have posted that all agree wirh you, when actually there maybe 4 people posting on this thread who are either partial or full cessationists! So its not actually a consesus for you.
 
C

convallaria

Banned
#27
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
#27
wattie said:
You know, you have concluded that 'we' know the perfect thing is jesus' secomd coming.

Aside from the fact you didnt get into that much depth explaining why it is jesus, you have posted that all agree wirh you, when actually there maybe 4 people posting on this thread who are either partial or full cessationists! So its not actually a consesus for you.
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This is a completely unintelligible response. You have shown clearly that you have not understood what has been discussed, which pretty much proves my conclusion.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#28
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#28
convallaria said:
This is a completely unintelligible response. You have shown clearly that you have not understood what has been discussed, which pretty much proves my conclusion.
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I love people who jump to conclusions sans facts. Saves time and insures that self opinions are correct.

Jesus is not the "perfect" which is to come. Jesus when Paul was writing this epistle had already been here. The most obvious thing that Paul would have been expecting through the Holy Spirit was the completion of the NT cannon. This is in the context since the OT is the mirror through which we see darkly. The NT being the completion and explanation of the mysteries of the OT.

Carry on do not allow reason and truth to ruin a perfectly good delusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#29
#29
notuptome said:
I love people who jump to conclusions sans facts. Saves time and insures that self opinions are correct.

Jesus is not the "perfect" which is to come. Jesus when Paul was writing this epistle had already been here. The most obvious thing that Paul would have been expecting through the Holy Spirit was the completion of the NT cannon. This is in the context since the OT is the mirror through which we see darkly. The NT being the completion and explanation of the mysteries of the OT.

Carry on do not allow reason and truth to ruin a perfectly good delusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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The deluded one (you) is lecturing against delusion.

God help us.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#33
#33
LT said:
Hopefully this thread will be more productive than the one it is 'spinning off' of.

Is the evidence of the Spirit the signs or the fruit?

We know that signs can come from even the Evil One, as they are prophesied to before the End,
Therefore, though signs can, and often do, accompany the presence of the Spirit, the TRUE evidence of the Spirit is not in signs, but in the Fruit of the Spirit.

Second issue is: are signs meant to encourage Believers, or meant to reach out to the unsaved?
The Word shows that the edifying gifts are for Believers. Sign gifts are unto, and for, the lost sheep
to bring them to the fold.
Click to expand...
The evidence is change of heart, best reserved for checking in on ourselves, because we all have this freaky disease that makes us think we can see past our log to someone else's splinter in their eye. lol
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#34
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#34
What was the evidence in the book of Acts that people had received the gift of holy Spirit?
 
E

Eva1218

Guest
#35
#35
It is by SPIRIT one becomes Saved, for when JESUS so Lovingly taps on the heart of men lives are changed. Everything GOD does is first Spiritual.
Those who look for signs are the unbelievers. Those who know the signs are the believers. It is not the signs that make the evidence of GOD but the SPIRIT. Even the demons believe and tremble.

Believers are Led by the SPIRIT, not by signs nor by wonders. With GOD it is about having a relationship. Other religions are based upon religious acts and rituals.

It is by the lifestyle of a believer that an unbeliever sees difference. Spirit recognize spirit.

Blessings!!!!!!!
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#36
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#36
peacefulbeliever said:
What was the evidence in the book of Acts that people had received the gift of holy Spirit?
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Who was that evidence for?

Peter recounts that it was for the sake of the Jews present that they might know that the very same Spirit that was upon them was now given to the Gentiles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#37
#37
convallaria said:
This is a completely unintelligible response. You have shown clearly that you have not understood what has been discussed, which pretty much proves my conclusion.
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Actually two men of God have been kind enough to disprove quite a few things you've "concluded" without any evidence to back them up and supposed when I'm quite sure you've supposed wrong. I think they've been very gracious to you.

I'm keeping my mouth shut knowing I probably would not be. However, you might want to do some thinking about what they said before continuing to summarize what was never yours to summarize.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#39
#39
peacefulbeliever said:
What was the evidence in the book of Acts that people had received the gift of holy Spirit?
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Do you mean that Holy Spirit fire on top of their heads? Or do you mean that they preached to multitudes and everyone understood them despite the fact they didn't all speak the same language? Or that many were saved on the spot? Or are you talking about people who quickly took off to share the Good News to the whole world? Or are you talking about...

A lot happened when The Holy Spirit showed up. Still does. lol
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#40
Feb 24, 2009
3,105
1,049
113
New Zealand
#40
convallaria said:
This is a completely unintelligible response. You have shown clearly that you have not understood what has been discussed, which pretty much proves my conclusion.
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Well, I was referring to the signs and wonders part of the OPs questioning which then you discussed with them, so I guess you mean the 'we' then as you and the OP (and maybe 1 or two others)?

I had bad spelling in my post I know :) Comes from trying to post using a cell phone.. but unintelligible?

Re-iterating:

You've concluded that 'we' believe Jesus' second coming is 'that which is perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13.. when in actual fact as I posted, there are around 4 people who are either part of full cessationists posting in this thread.

So who is the 'we'? :)

Anyhoo..

This thread has been mostly done in good heart. Like I posted before- if at least you are looking at signs and wonders from the apostles and disciples perspective then.. they did have very particular purposes for spreading the gospel, establishing Jesus' churches and proving Jesus' and the disciples and apostles authority.

As far as fruits go.. there will be evidence initially of a believer having been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which would be fruits.. but I would also say if you don't actually see these fruits in a believer.. doesn't mean they didn't at one point have them, and doesn't mean they aren't saved.
 
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