The Rapture

popeye · Aug 28, 2015

Good analogy,but the believer is a bride and a soldier.

Paul said "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord"

It is an honor to receive the marks of stoning,beating and such. We are on an adventure,and even the havoc and peril is awesome.

Pretribbers are regularly accused of being wimpy cowards that will flake out when the tribulation begins. The inference is that they,postribs are giants in faith and stamina,while we are little chickens looking for an escape.

They actually harm the testimony of heaven,in that it is Jesus that boldly depicted the gathering of the bride,and used noah ,and lot in his depiction. Neither are post wrath anything. Nothing post wrath at all.

....but yes he does in fact get us out.......before the earth's inhabitants get on on the AC's little party

popeye · Aug 28, 2015

AVoiceintheWilderness said:

You have 2 heaven references and one earth,but let me guess.....the "heaven" one is off the table?
Beyond that,Angels are gathering,not Jesus,and no resurrected dead are in the picture.

popeye · Aug 28, 2015

AVoiceintheWilderness said:

I just can't agree about the widely held belief that the Bible is written only to the Israelties/Jews in some places or that the rapture is just for Israel. That's a slippery slope, to me, just like saying that only certain parts of the Bible are true. Once you head down that road, every single verse becomes open to being "only for them & not for us" or "that's not true, but this part is." And it just simply doesn't fit with everything I, me personally, have seen, read, studied, etc.

And, if God IS intending anything only for Israel, his beloved, then, to me, He is speaking of those He has predestined for salvation, those he specifically foreknew before the creation of the world. Not to a specific race of people or their DNA/genetic descendants.

The elect are those for whom God has done/is doing everything for. They are whom He actually had the Bible written for, they are those to whom He sends his messages of love and hope and warning. When He mentions descendants of Abraham or Israel as His special people, I believe He's referring to the elect which are of many PHYSICAL races, ethnics, but of only one SPIRITUAL race. They are all those who truly have the Holy Spirit. Many of the things God says and does that people get confused are coming from a very SPIRITUAL perspective. Not a physical, fleshly, earthy one.

The lost, the heathen, those who will NEVER be able to hear the truth or be saved no matter what, are of no concern to Him because He knows they are already dead, spiritually, for they will never turn to Him with all their hearts, minds and strength. I believe He loves all people, but knows who will ultimately choose life and who will choose death.

Therefore, the only reason whatsoever to evangelize and get the Word of God out there to the world at all is to wake up those whom He foreknew, whom He has predestined for salvation and whom He plans to gather to bring home to Himself so that He can enjoy us.

He made us, not to be mindless slaves or robots programmed to worship and honor Him, but to, by our own will and through much hardship and tribulation, ultimately choose to love Him and be in awe of His majesty and His ability to love us and all His creation. This has been a process of sanctification, to purify us and to test our resolve in whether we will choose the higher things of the Spirit and of God or the lower things of the body and the senses.

Good post.

You do need to,however,acknowledge that the Jews are covenant through abraham and Jesus did in fact come as the messiah,to the Jews,his covenant pple. THAT IS WHY the times of the gentiles has to end(the dispensation of grace).

It is then,at that juncture,the time of jacob's(Israel's) trouble,BEGINS WITH THE JEWISH COVENANT PPLE.

You have to see that where this whole thing is headed,I mean EVERYTHING, is to re-establish DAVID'S THRONE.

Jesus takes this throne in the millennium. THIS IS THE TARGET.

carolb · Aug 28, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Greetings carolb,

Really? A black woman made it up? Hmmm ..... did she write 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 and many of the other scriptures that refer to the Lord's appearing? My information comes from scripture, not other people. If we put aside the controversy of when this event is going to take place, we can at least be in agreement that it is going to happen:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Regarding the scripture above, let's break it down:

* The Lord himself will come down from heaven
* The dead in Christ will rise first
* After the dead rise, then those who are still alive will be "caught up" in the clouds where the whole group meets the Lord in the air.

Since the scripture above was written by Paul, how is it that a black woman made it up? The context of the scripture supports the church being "caught up" and meeting the Lord in the air. On the contrary, not believing and watching for his appearing is Satan's way of fooling people, because anyone who is not ready and anticipating his coming will not be going. The words "caught up" are translated from the word "Harpazo" which is defined properly as to, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, force suddenly exercised. It is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven. It is the same word used regarding the male child of Rev.12:5 who is "snatched up" to God's throne. The other words of the context in 1 Thes.4:16 "clouds" and "Air" support where believers are being caught up to.

As previously stated the resurrection and catching away of the dead and the living is a completely separate event from Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

For the record I said back, not black. Back in the 1800's.

KennethC · Aug 28, 2015

Is said:

Yes so what are you trying to say because this takes place after the great tribulation (at the end of it), and it says the angels are sent at this point to go gather the elect. This is after the great tribulation, not a pre-trib gathering, and there is no such teaching of two gatherings before and during the tribulation.

The first gathering (1st Resurrection) is at the end of the great tribulation, and the second gathering (2nd Resurrection) is after the millennial reign of Christ and the Gog/Magog encounter.

vf6cruiser · Aug 28, 2015

1. The Tribulation rapture and second coming are all separate events
2. The Tribulation involves Israel and not the body of Christ, the born again spirit filled believers.
3. The timing of the rapture is utterly unknowable, it occurs when the last Gentile is saved into the body of Christ
4. The rapture is not to escape the wrath of the tribulation, but to unite Christ with His church and to unite believers with their glorified bodies (identical to Christ's body after resurrection)
5. After the rapture the Tribulation begins with a signing of a 7 year peace treaty for Israel
6. Mathew 24 is all Tribulation ground does not apply to the rapture
7. Two thirds of the population of Israel will die in the Trib obviously enormous collateral damage worldwide
8. Those who have heard the gospel and rejected it will be sent a delusion and take the mark
9. At the end of the Trib Christ returns with all of us in our glorified bodies who went up at the rapture, we rule and reign with Him during the 1,000 year millenium
10. At Christ's 2nd coming there will be believers and the one third of Jews who survive and go into the millenium in physical bodies and enjoy a refurbished earth. The two workers in the field, the one TAKEN is sent to hell......Christ determines who will go into the millenium and only believers will be there.
11. Many will be saved in the Tribulation but they will all be martyred......the truly saved will be watching them arrive in heaven
12. The Bible is absolutely true and Gods program is moving along according to plan......every detail will be fulfilled......

KennethC · Aug 28, 2015

popeye said:

It is called reading what Jesus said as He said it clearly, that the second coming of the Lord in verse 30 and the gathering in verse 31 of Matthew 24 takes place after the great tribulation. Not before it.

pottersclay · Aug 28, 2015

Popeye was my favorite cartoon of all time when I was a kid. I even had a sailor suit my mom bought for me when I was five.
Anyway I forgot to say in my little story that my wife is a martial arts expert and was grateful she didn't have to break her nails she just had done but I didn't know how to fit that in there .lol
I'm just waiting for the day to arrive to take the opportunity to explain it to those that disagree on the way up.

AVoiceintheWilderness · Aug 29, 2015

popeye said:

Come on, Popeye. You're better than that. You don't even NEED to play dirty.

Let's keep the record clear, here, as to what's been said and not try to cleverly hide the fact that we're going in circles.

Here's the hidden part of that exchange for all to see.

The irony? You are trying to accuse me of doing exactly what you're doing in the same post by completely ignoring the verse about the elect being gathered from the earth, though it's already been posted multiple times in this thread. Remember what they say about pointing fingers! You always have 3 pointing back at yourself.

Now, back on track.

In response to your last post:

I guess my question is simply this: How do you reconcile the belief that it's all about Israel/Jews in light of these verses?

Romans 9:4-8
[SUP]4 [/SUP]They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; [SUP]5 [/SUP]to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah,[SUP][a][/SUP] who is over all, God blessed forever.[SUP][b][/SUP] Amen. [SUP]6 [/SUP]It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and not all of Abraham’s children are his true descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.

This is demonstrating the Spiritual 'Elect.' Not flesh & blood Jews/Israel.

Romans 9:27
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a small number will be saved; [SUP]28 [/SUP]For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality.”

There are more verses to this effect, but this will suffice for now.

Is · Aug 29, 2015

KennethC said:

The gathering of the "elect" is the rapture at the end of the tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) of the Jewish saints.

"Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Ps.50:2,3

"And except those days shoudl be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matt.24:22

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem. Isaiah 27:13

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever" Rev.11:15

"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it,and my servants shall dwell there." Isaiah 65:9

The pre-trib rapture is of the Church.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Thess.5:9

Very early on in Rev.6:17 when Jesus is opening the Seals it says:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev.6:17

A reading of Rev.7:13 shows that there are already people in heaven and between the 5th and 6th Seals there are people in white robes under the altar 6:9 that the elders in 7:13 ask about.

If Matt.24 is not about the Israel, why would he mention the symbol that is indicative of Israel which is the Fig Tree in v.32?

KennethC said:

The first resurrection is of the saints that will be taken up with the livng. The second resurrection is of the wicked that is unto death after they have been judged.

KennethC · Aug 29, 2015

Is said:

The whole chapter of Matthew 24 is not of Israel or the Jews alone, the fig tree is about Israel, but that sign is not for just the Jews. It is for all believers in Christ to recognize the end is near !!!

Second to separate the 1st Resurrection from the gathering/rapture is a wrong approach, and the bible gives no such teaching that there will be multiple raptures of big groups of believers. It speaks of a person such as Enoch, and the two witnesses, but nowhere does it teach multitudes of people being raptured at different points.

There is only two Resurrections:

1st Resurrection - Believers in Christ

2nd Resurrection - Those who will stand before God at the great white judgment throne, threat of facing the second death.

The other thing we can not do is read Revelation as if it happens in consecutive order, I use to believe that way but after in depth study it does not actually work that way.

Revelation 6:9 says these people were slain (killed) not raptured, and Revelation 7:13-14 says they come out of the great tribulation not before it. Again no support for a pre-trib rapture in these verses as these two groups were killed and came out of within the great tribulation.

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

vf6cruiser said:

1. The Tribulation rapture and second coming are all separate events
2. The Tribulation involves Israel and not the body of Christ, the born again spirit filled believers.
3. The timing of the rapture is utterly unknowable, it occurs when the last Gentile is saved into the body of Christ
4. The rapture is not to escape the wrath of the tribulation, but to unite Christ with His church and to unite believers with their glorified bodies (identical to Christ's body after resurrection)
5. After the rapture the Tribulation begins with a signing of a 7 year peace treaty for Israel
6. Mathew 24 is all Tribulation ground does not apply to the rapture
7. Two thirds of the population of Israel will die in the Trib obviously enormous collateral damage worldwide
8. Those who have heard the gospel and rejected it will be sent a delusion and take the mark
9. At the end of the Trib Christ returns with all of us in our glorified bodies who went up at the rapture, we rule and reign with Him during the 1,000 year millenium
10. At Christ's 2nd coming there will be believers and the one third of Jews who survive and go into the millenium in physical bodies and enjoy a refurbished earth. The two workers in the field, the one TAKEN is sent to hell......Christ determines who will go into the millenium and only believers will be there.
11. Many will be saved in the Tribulation but they will all be martyred......the truly saved will be watching them arrive in heaven
12. The Bible is absolutely true and Gods program is moving along according to plan......every detail will be fulfilled......

Fairly close ,except in mat 24 the one taken,one left is indeed the pretrib rapture. Jesus was asked 3 questions at the start of the capture.W/O that background the chapter CANNOT be unraveled

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

Is said:

The gathering of the "elect" is the rapture at the end of the tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) of the Jewish saints.

"Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Ps.50:2,3

"And except those days shoudl be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matt.24:22

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem. Isaiah 27:13

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever" Rev.11:15

"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it,and my servants shall dwell there." Isaiah 65:9

The pre-trib rapture is of the Church.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Thess.5:9

Very early on in Rev.6:17 when Jesus is opening the Seals it says:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev.6:17

A reading of Rev.7:13 shows that there are already people in heaven and between the 5th and 6th Seals there are people in white robes under the altar 6:9 that the elders in 7:13 ask about.

If Matt.24 is not about the Israel, why would he mention the symbol that is indicative of Israel which is the Fig Tree in v.32?

The first resurrection is of the saints that will be taken up with the livng. The second resurrection is of the wicked that is unto death after they have been judged.

The Jews are harvested towards the end of the GT. The144k are first fruits,followed by the Jews which are harvested later by "the one sitting on the cloud with the sickle.

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

Is said:

The gathering of the "elect" is the rapture at the end of the tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) of the Jewish saints.

"Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Ps.50:2,3

"And except those days shoudl be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matt.24:22

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem. Isaiah 27:13

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever" Rev.11:15

"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it,and my servants shall dwell there." Isaiah 65:9

The pre-trib rapture is of the Church.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Thess.5:9

Very early on in Rev.6:17 when Jesus is opening the Seals it says:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev.6:17

A reading of Rev.7:13 shows that there are already people in heaven and between the 5th and 6th Seals there are people in white robes under the altar 6:9 that the elders in 7:13 ask about.

If Matt.24 is not about the Israel, why would he mention the symbol that is indicative of Israel which is the Fig Tree in v.32?

The first resurrection is of the saints that will be taken up with the livng. The second resurrection is of the wicked that is unto death after they have been judged.

Yep
I would add that that is why Jesus said"the last shall be first and the first....last"

Again,postrib is poorly thought out

gkroo · Aug 30, 2015

Since this is a Bible Discussion Forum, somebody somewhere put up the verse or verses that describe the Rapture.

gkroo · Aug 30, 2015

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is the rapture. There is only one resurrection (from the dead). The living do not resurrect, but they are raptured with the resurrected dead after everything has been destroyed and only a few remain on earth.

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Yes there is.

The innumerable number IN HEAVEN DURING THE GT

The 144k gathered as firstfruits. IN HEAVEN DURING THE GT

The "Ripe fruit" which are reaped by Jesus on a cloud with a sickle.IN HEAVEN DURING THE GT.

1thes 4

The patriarchs along with Jesus gathered as 1st fruits.

You are WAY,WAY, off ken.

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

gkroo said:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is the rapture. There is only one resurrection (from the dead). The living do not resurrect, but they are raptured with the resurrected dead after everything has been destroyed and only a few remain on earth.

There is a harvest late in the GT by jesus,on a cloud. NO HORSES,NO SAINTS,ONLY JEWS HARVESTED.

Postrib is poorly thought out.

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

gkroo said:

Tons of verses. Do your homework.

Enoch
Elijah
The patriarchs
Jesus
The church
The 144k jews
The remnant Jews.

ALL HARVESTED BEFORE THE END OF THE GT

As in Noah,Lot there is no postrib/postjudgement ANYTHING.
No postrib dealings at all with his pple.

They RETURN to earth postrib.....you know....kinda like NOAH

popeye · Aug 30, 2015

pottersclay said:

when I joined I only had one good eye. My left one had a cataract.I recently got it fixed.

That is why I called myself that.

I really do not identify with my nickname at all now. I guess it really doesn't matter LOL

The Rapture

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