Discussing the Garden of eden event

[PeterJens]

A point - Was it sinful to eat of the tree of Knowledge?

It led to death, and God gave the reason why you should not eat of the tree, but what was it there for if not to be eaten from.

If the ultimate definition of sin is things that lead to death, then it was sinful, but in one sense it has led to Jesus and life.

Sin sometimes can be seen from a different perspective as a good act.
We go to war, we kill, we take from people because they owe others, but we call this righteous behaviour and good, yet done unjustly, is evil and sin. So though people would like to say things are absolute, this is not actually true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A theological point

Adam and eve were not the same after gaining knowledge of good and evil.
They became like God.

Many miss this point. There is no going back to innocence, the relationship is changed forever.
The story only makes sense because God to create independent children had to allow man to choose to walk this road even though it led to death.

From Gods perspective, the end goal was a people who walked like Him, truly free yet truly holy.
Was it wrong to give us this chance?

This is why I do not accept it was test, or some kind of blip, it was the road to life and was inevitable, just like Judas was inevitable. You cannot have freedom and love without bondage and death, because some will choose one and not the other, but does this mean you will deny both and play safe?

Theological point has some flaws.

They did not become like God. God does not know evil, he has never tasted it, he is righteous. Satan lied to them and only told them a half truth.

If someone has free will and the ability to chose. He has to have the ability to make wrong decisions, else he has no free will.

I also can not appreciate how well I am taken care of. until I am put in a position to try to take care of myself. It is then that my true faith is revealed. Do trust the one who is sayng they will take care of my every need, or do I not.

Adam and eve evenetually said no they did not (hence that was the actual sin)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A point - Was it sinful to eat of the tree of Knowledge?

It led to death, and God gave the reason why you should not eat of the tree, but what was it there for if not to be eaten from.

If the ultimate definition of sin is things that lead to death, then it was sinful, but in one sense it has led to Jesus and life.

Sin sometimes can be seen from a different perspective as a good act.
We go to war, we kill, we take from people because they owe others, but we call this righteous behaviour and good, yet done unjustly, is evil and sin. So though people would like to say things are absolute, this is not actually true.

Thats why we are still learning Gods way, and will continue to do so for all eternity. Some things we may never understand here on earth. We just have to trust our creator.

 

[PeterJens]

Theological point has some flaws.

They did not become like God.

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us,knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Gen 3:22

Now the phrase "become like one of us" means become like God.

Now this was just in terms of knowing good and evil. It also means God knows evil, because that is what it says.

Now I know people construct their own theology and ideas, but this is plain and simple ideas.
Does God do evil? The language used is God brings judgement, violence, destruction which people can term as evil, but it does not mean evil in the sense of wrong. If there is no morality involved, like a tree falling down, if you are crushed by it or not it is not evil, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The question then becomes if God is love, surely he should stop these "evil" things, but that presumes knowledge of why that is the better option. I leave it up to God to decide.

So therefore I conclude your analysis is wrong and unbiblical. I say this simply because you cannot have the words as written and take your interpretation, as far as I can see, but I am open to another argument if you can put it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us,knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Gen 3:22

Now the phrase "become like one of us" means become like God.

Now this was just in terms of knowing good and evil. It also means God knows evil, because that is what it says.

Now I know people construct their own theology and ideas, but this is plain and simple ideas.
Does God do evil? The language used is God brings judgement, violence, destruction which people can term as evil, but it does not mean evil in the sense of wrong. If there is no morality involved, like a tree falling down, if you are crushed by it or not it is not evil, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The question then becomes if God is love, surely he should stop these "evil" things, but that presumes knowledge of why that is the better option. I leave it up to God to decide.

So therefore I conclude your analysis is wrong and unbiblical. I say this simply because you cannot have the words as written and take your interpretation, as far as I can see, but I am open to another argument if you can put it.

So you are saying God has experienced evil by committing evil himself.

Ok. Thats a good theology to maintain.. In fact, It goes right along with what satan said..

Knowing the result of evil, and what has to be done to overcome it, and knowing evil personally are two different things.

That is why God said he must remove the tree,, so they could not live, He needed to provide a better more permanent way, where they could live apart from evil.

I thank God he did that, I could not imagine living in this evil world forever.

 

[posthuman]

Sin sometimes can be seen from a different perspective as a good act.

now there's a mormon idea about the fall of man

 

[PeterJens]

So you are saying God has experienced evil by committing evil himself.

Ok. Thats a good theology to maintain.. In fact, It goes right along with what satan said..

Knowing the result of evil, and what has to be done to overcome it, and knowing evil personally are two different things.

That is why God said he must remove the tree,, so they could not live, He needed to provide a better more permanent way, where they could live apart from evil.

I thank God he did that, I could not imagine living in this evil world forever.

Lol. I did not say God did evil. It is up to you what you read in what is not there. But I think as you cannot read and quote scripture properly, maybe there is something here you are running away from. For God to create the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he knows what evil is. Because he wrote the law, he knows what evil is. I ofcourse am not saying God does evil, I am saying God is responsible for acts people have called evil.

God said he must stop Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life, so he excludes them from the garden and puts a sword that stops people entering the garden. So no removing the tree.

I know evil people, but it does not mean I have done what they have done. It seems strange to me that you wish to create this idea.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol. I did not say God did evil. It is up to you what you read in what is not there. But I think as you cannot read and quote scripture properly, maybe there is something here you are running away from. For God to create the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he knows what evil is. Because he wrote the law, he knows what evil is. I ofcourse am not saying God does evil, I am saying God is responsible for acts people have called evil.

That will go over well. Tell that to God when you see him, Better yet do not tell him that, I doubt he will be happy for you to say he is responsible for all the evil the world has seen.

God said he must stop Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life, so he excludes them from the garden and puts a sword that stops people entering the garden. So no removing the tree.

I know evil people, but it does not mean I have done what they have done. It seems strange to me that you wish to create this idea.

Evil is evil. If you do anything for self. it is evil

Adam and eve ate a fruit, and the fall of mankind occured.. You think you did not do what they did> of course you did, as have I and everyone else.

 

[pottersclay]

I think what you are focusing on in this thread has nothing to do with the story. God cannot create himself for he alone is perfect and holy and just. God said in his likeness is man created not perfect.
You cannot abstain the likeness of God by any other way except through redemption. No fruits no way except for God's way through Christ. The tree was the knowledge of good and evil which up until that point only God knew. Satan said if you eat of it then you will become as gods knowing good and evil. Small g showing demi-god eves desire to rule herself Adams desire to rule with eve. Jesus said the greatest shall be a servant, eve was told that Adam had rule over her. They found out that God's first prophecy spoken tho that surly die would be fulfilled. That the serpent was as liar and God did not lie. Covering up their nakedness by their own abilities was not acceptable to God. Knowing they were naked (or without excuse) before the Lord (for he had warned them) God now gives them an acceptable covering for their sin which only he could provide. The lamb skin seat coverings now a glimpse of Christ as a redeemer.

 

[pottersclay]

Abstain I ment obtain.....ooops stupid me.

 

[PeterJens]

That will go over well. Tell that to God when you see him, Better yet do not tell him that, I doubt he will be happy for you to say he is responsible for all the evil the world has seen.

Evil is evil. If you do anything for self. it is evil

Adam and eve ate a fruit, and the fall of mankind occured.. You think you did not do what they did> of course you did, as have I and everyone else.

I lost your train of thought or concept. I did not eat of the tree of knowledge, I was born into the knowledge, as I inherited it from Adam.

You make me laugh. I have no problem talking with the Lord about how people believe he does evil things. Where do you think the idea of Shiva came from, and the concept of war and death. Who sets our end and passes sentence on us? It is the Lord Most High. Who let the sunami run across the the indian ocean? But who did not prepare or see a need to educate their people about the risk? If the Lord chooses to destroy me, who am I to argue against it. It is only Jesus who has held out a hand of safety and I who have trusted His word.

Evil is not doing things for self. I wash myself, feed myself, do lots of things that are about surviving, but that is not evil.
Evil is about doing harm, taking that which I have no right to, exercising my will over others where I should not.

It appears your moral compass is off by a long way, and you do not understand the fall of Adam and Eve.
The problem with the knowledge of good and evil, is without God and love, it becomes sin and death, because we justify things that are wrong, because they benefit ourselves above others and do not see how we have changed the focus and way of measuring morality.

Maybe these ideas are too alien to you to understand. I know the Lord, and His ways, so I wonder what you are talking about, because you seem lost to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I lost your train of thought or concept. I did not eat of the tree of knowledge, I was born into the knowledge, as I inherited it from Adam.

You make me laugh. I have no problem talking with the Lord about how people believe he does evil things. Where do you think the idea of Shiva came from, and the concept of war and death. Who sets our end and passes sentence on us? It is the Lord Most High. Who let the sunami run across the the indian ocean? But who did not prepare or see a need to educate their people about the risk? If the Lord chooses to destroy me, who am I to argue against it. It is only Jesus who has held out a hand of safety and I who have trusted His word.

God does no evil. You have a warped frame of mind if you think Our god does evil. If he does evil he has no right to punish us for evil.

Evil is not doing things for self. I wash myself, feed myself, do lots of things that are about surviving, but that is not evil.
Evil is about doing harm, taking that which I have no right to, exercising my will over others where I should not.

Look up the word carnal. You wash and feed yourself only because God gave you the things to do it.. Or do yuo like to take credit for everything.

Itappears your moral compass is off by a long way, and you do not understand the fall of Adam and Eve.

God said trust me, Adam and eve said, thanks but no thanks God, your hiding something from us, we do not trust you..

It appears your moral compass is off. You do not realise what sin is.

The problem with the knowledge of good and evil, is without God and love, it becomes sin and death, because we justify things that are wrong, because they benefit ourselves above others and do not see how we have changed the focus and way of measuring morality.

Maybe these ideas are too alien to you to understand. I know the Lord, and His ways, so I wonder what you are talking about, because you seem lost to me.

lol. I am not lost at all. I understand completely. That is why I refuse to look in pride, and am like paul and know I am a wretched soul saved solely by the blood of Christ.

Of course, when our moral compas seeks to agree with Gods moral compas, and not mans, We will always see ourselves in this light.

Maybe you do not? if not, thats sad.

 

[posthuman]

i think the definition of evil as doing harm is overly broad - this is like an essentially wiccan idea, famously, "do as thou wilt, but harm thou none" - wouldn't you agree peter, that harm done by way of justice is not evil?
. . . inasmuch as the reward of sin is God's righteous and holy judgement, not tyranny.







posted from my obamaphone

 

[angel007]

Ok, here is something I want to throw out there to you all. In no way am I saying I'm fully right in my thinking. This is a subject I have studied a great deal. There are some things that is hard to fully understand. But this came to me while breaking down many things that's mentioned in Genesis.

Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

Now Adam would have been a very knowledgeable man, and he would have known or felt the love of God had for him. I've had to question myself this, "How could Adam, mankind in general understand the love here Jesus speaks of without sin coming into the world?" God is in control of all things and He alone knows everything and knew what was going to happen, God knew sin was going to come into the world and He allowed it. But God does not allow anything to happen without a reason and purpose.

God made the very first sacrifice and made clothing for Adam and Eve, He gave us a glimpse then what He was going to do through His Son, Jesus Christ. God made the first sacrifice to clothe Adam and Eve and God made the final sacrifice that we might be clothed in the Righteousness of Christ. God gave the very first prophecy in Scripture, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen.3:15

This prophecy was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ.God was preparing a Kingdom for us at the very foundation of the world (Matt.25:34) that Kingdom, actually everything that was created was for His Son Jesus (Col.1:16). Then the fact that Eph. 1:4 and 5 says, "...,he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. / Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

All of this shows He had a plan from the get go, before the foundation of the world. God allowed sin for a reason and a purpose and taking things as this in mind I can't help but wonder the reason God allowed sin was that mankind could experience that great love which we find in Christ. Can't say i'm fully right it's just where my thinking is at the moment, it's something i've been pondering on this subject.

 

[onlinebuddy]

So u mean to say that God failed in creating a perfect Adam and Eve who could have NOT sinned. There was something wrong in the creation of God, that he couldnt create Adam and Eve in such a way that even they have free will, they couldnt have been powerful not to sin??????????????????

Jesus was in the flesh, yet he did not sin, why not Adam???So there is something wrong in the creation of the first man???????I don't believe it.

Your words self contradictory.
You equate free will to having the power to overcome sin.
Free will also gives you the power to choose sin.

Let us consider two choices:
(a) to sin (b) not to sin

You say: having free will means that: they SHOULD have the power not to sin (b)
I say: having free will means that they should be given a choice (unlike a robot), to choose between (a) and (b)

So, free will means: being given the freedom to choose between (a) and (b) (and their consequences thereoff)

Adam and Eve had free will. They chose (a)
Jesus had free will. He was not a robot. He chose (b). He had the human tendency of choosing (a), but he overcame it and chose (b). Just like Adam, he was tempted by the devil, but he chose (b). That's why he is an example for us.

Jesus used his "free will" to do the "will" of the father
Adam chose his "free will" to go against the "will" of the Father.

 

[PeterJens]

All of this shows He had a plan from the get go, before the foundation of the world. God allowed sin for a reason and a purpose and taking things as this in mind I can't help but wonder the reason God allowed sin

This line of thinking led me to a realisation before eating of the tree of knowledge adam was not fully self aware.
The representation of this is in nakedness, they were naked but had no shame.

The price of knowledge without God, without communion is death. Now God chose to put this choice before man, knowing he would choose it above a relationship with God. But in essence this is also the basis of sin, rebellion, being independent and not recognising need. Look at how you developed and went through your teenage years. There is a process of rejection and then returning, the prodigal son.

 

[PeterJens]

i think the definition of evil as doing harm is overly broad - this is like an essentially wiccan idea, famously, "do as thou wilt, but harm thou none" - wouldn't you agree peter, that harm done by way of justice is not evil?
. . . inasmuch as the reward of sin is God's righteous and holy judgement, not tyranny.

I agree it is hard to generalise about what is sin and what is not sin. The problem is always context.
An action may be loving yet cause harm, and something that appears innocent can cause death.

We say do not kill, but we still go to war. So the law always has a context, within which it works in general but there are always exceptions. The commandments are a good benchmark, but they have some boundaries around Israel, the temple, civil and state law and individual or personal law.

This is why getting to pedantic causes confusion.

 

[pottersclay]

The first prophecy was not the enmity found in gen 3 15 the first was death. ( You shall surly die).

 

[PeterJens]

God does no evil.

How well do you know God or understand His actions?
Habakkuk pleads with God to save Judah from their wickedness, and God sends the Babylonians as judgement.

This is not nice, or friendly. In the soup of degredation and sin that we humans live in, anything that happens you could argue is just. Many christians would say, but what about the innocent children, the people who do not choose a way of life but are born into it. This is where communities have a community responsibility. It is expressed in the law as God not visiting judgment for sin to the 3rd generation.

Take David, a righteous king who also murdered Uriah the Hittite. David also snuk out and wipped out philistine villages when he was faking fighting for the philistines.

So I am saying to you God is pure, holy and good, but much of how this world is made and works causes us great confusion and doubt.

Bring this personal to home, pancriatic cancer, very painful, very difficult to treat. I know of a few good christian people who have gone through this, and it is very hard. It would be easy to say this pain should not happen because this burden could easily be lifted by God. Now we say these ideas, but we have no clue how true or otherwise this idea is.

The problem is if you do one action in the world which is related to action and reaction, you have to be consistent throughout creation. Only one place where this consistency will be obvious, judgement day. Before that there is only gifts of grace, we do not earn, but the Lord chooses to provide.

Why do I say all this? Because too many people want to box up ideas, and not get personal.

God in a sense in the garden was hiding something from Adam, knowledge, but with that knowledge came death.
I trust God with my whole life, but also I know He is just, holy and completely other, so I need to learn and follow Jesus to make sense of it all.

You appear to me to be fixated on ideas that blind you from the obvious.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, here is something I want to throw out there to you all. In no way am I saying I'm fully right in my thinking. This is a subject I have studied a great deal. There are some things that is hard to fully understand. But this came to me while breaking down many things that's mentioned in Genesis.

Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

Now Adam would have been a very knowledgeable man, and he would have known or felt the love of God had for him. I've had to question myself this, "How could Adam, mankind in general understand the love here Jesus speaks of without sin coming into the world?" God is in control of all things and He alone knows everything and knew what was going to happen, God knew sin was going to come into the world and He allowed it. But God does not allow anything to happen without a reason and purpose.

God made the very first sacrifice and made clothing for Adam and Eve, He gave us a glimpse then what He was going to do through His Son, Jesus Christ. God made the first sacrifice to clothe Adam and Eve and God made the final sacrifice that we might be clothed in the Righteousness of Christ. God gave the very first prophecy in Scripture, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen.3:15

This prophecy was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ.God was preparing a Kingdom for us at the very foundation of the world (Matt.25:34) that Kingdom, actually everything that was created was for His Son Jesus (Col.1:16). Then the fact that Eph. 1:4 and 5 says, "...,he hath chosen us in himbefore the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. / Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

All of this shows He had a plan from the get go, before the foundation of the world. God allowed sin for a reason and a purpose and taking things as this in mind I can't help but wonder the reason God allowed sin was that mankind could experience that great love which we find in Christ. Can't say i'm fully right it's just where my thinking is at the moment, it's something i've been pondering on this subject.

It has been said, the way God shut up Satan and his lie, and has made it so no rebellion will happen for all eternity, is based on his true love and sacrifice for this little creation called mankind.