The Law Debacle Resolved

[eternally-gratefull]

Do as Jesus teaches and what He did.......... Why argue grace without law? How do others not see that Jesus teaches the law with grace?

Blind, deaf and dumb. Stop arguing when it is there in front of our face. Do not defy the Lord's teaching, and do not call profane what is holy.

Stay on topic.

No. Jesus teaches law leads to grace. They both can not be together.

 

[just-me]

Schoomaster - tutor - guardian A slave who was placed over the children of the rich and influential to supervise their daily lives, and keep them in line, These children were not even aloud to step out of the house without these "tutors" or "guides" until they reach adulthood.

Context. A schoolmaster kept their kids in line with whatever was the parent instructed them to do. His purpose was to get the child graduation (adulthood) with every thing needed for the child to have a successful life.

In the context of paul. The end result is Christ. The law was given as a gilde to give us every tool we need to graduate (find Christ) which would result in salvation.

Paul said it led us to Christ. And once we have found christ, we no longer need it.

So you tell us why paul lied

That was a good explanation.

Paul didn't lie. He clearly said that the guardian leads us to the teacher. After faith comes, the student has learned to follow the same route as when he or she first started attending classes. Faith doesn't say we are graduated from school. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18

And next time you think your going to be tricky, Think again.. It just backfired on you!

Your last comment shows that you haven't quite learned the route yet.
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord. Leviticus 19:18

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Very nice, but it didn't answer my question. When the law says do this, and grace says do that, which do you do?

Christ is not divided, follow the Spirit of the law written in your heart.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Romans 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Christ is not divided, follow the Spirit of the law written in your heart.

That still avoids the question. Has everyone who holds this doctrine become so hypnotized that they can't answer a simple question?

 

[JesusLives]

Yes that is why ever jot and tittle will be in effect and it will never fade away, we agree sis.



The wage of sin is no longer death to a child of God. But there are still wages, we agree.

But obeying rules are not what makes your kids obedient to you. It is their love for you. and trust in you. When they think of self. your rules will not be able to stop them from doing what they want.

We agree at last.... However, the rules are still there that's why God's law is a law of love..... the first four show our love and loyalty to God the last 6 love for our fellow man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That was a good explanation.

Paul didn't lie. He clearly said that the guardian leads us to the teacher. After faith comes, the student has learned to follow the same route as when he or she first started attending classes. Faith doesn't say we are graduated from school. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18
Your last comment shows that you haven't quite learned the route yet.
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord. Leviticus 19:18

The schoolmaster did not lead us to the teacher it lead us to the savior. Jesus as teacher means nothing if one is not saved.

Jesus as teacher (to those of us who have been saved) showed and tells us how to be obedeint followers.

The law of love,, In it contains the law and prophets.

one does not need law. they need love.

Paul said it is no longer needed. Why do you want to call him a liar?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We agree at last.... However, the rules are still that's why God's law is a law of love..... the first four show our love and loyalty to God the last 6 love for our fellow man.

Yes they still apply. a sin is still a sin.

But the law can not show us every sin, thats why it is dangerous to follow law.

I can follow law and still be a worthless sinner (see pharisee, see legalism)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ is not divided, follow the Spirit of the law written in your heart.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Romans 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law of moses is the law of sin and death

The law of love is the law of Christ.

lets follow Christs law. which gives life, not Moses law. which can only lead to death (cursed is the one who does not confirm and Obey ALL that is written.)

 

[just-me]

No. Jesus teaches law leads to grace. They both can not be together.

So in conversation I'm attempting to relate to your thoughts.

As soon as God led the children out of Egypt, He decided to temporarily abandon His graceful character that were revealed to the patriarchs that came before Moses. Then later, after He gave Israel His law, He would again revive the grace of His character that was before the law that He didn't want Israel to notice about Him.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

That still avoids the question. Has everyone who holds this doctrine become so hypnotized that they can't answer a simple question?

This doctrine of the Spirit of the law written in our hearts and minds is a part of the New Covenant Jesus brought in. I'm just trying to show how there is harmony not division in the righteousness of the law. Too many people try to make it a dividing point as if God was saying 2 different things. But the divisions are truly caused by the perceptions of the carnal mind, between the flesh not being able to hear what the mind of the Spirit is saying in the law and prophets.

Paul saw this in those who wanted to be teachers of the letter of the law and those who thought they would be justified by the works of the law, (motions of the law) by being under the law. But these being yet in the flesh were unable to truly hear and see what the shadow of the law was truly symbolizing in many of those carnal ordinances.

Galatians 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Why couldn't they hear the spirit of the law? Because they were yet in the flesh.

Those who say the spirit of the law and testimony of Jesus Christ speak different things toward one another truly do not hear what the Spirit is saying in the law and prophets.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The law of moses is the law of sin and death

That's a common misunderstanding and contrary to scripture. The law is holy, just, and good. The law of Moses is not sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law of sin and death is much like the reality of the law of gravity, were all firstborn under the bondage of it.

 

[just-me]

The schoolmaster did not lead us to the teacher it lead us to the savior. Jesus as teacher means nothing if one is not saved.

Jesus as teacher (to those of us who have been saved) showed and tells us how to be obedeint followers.

The law of love,, In it contains the law and prophets.

one does not need law. they need love.

Paul said it is no longer needed. Why do you want to call him a liar?

Paul is not a liar or a heritic for that matter.
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14

I intend to follow his example. Paul continued to attend the teaching of Christ, and worshiped God accordingly.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1

Nicodemus believed Jesus was a teacher. Jesus taught him abut being "born again."

The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. John 3:2

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This doctrine of the Spirit of the law written in our hearts and minds is a part of the New Covenant Jesus brought in. I'm just trying to show how there is harmony not division in the righteousness of the law. Too many people try to make it a dividing point as if God was saying 2 different things. But the divisions are truly caused by the perceptions of the carnal mind, between the flesh not being able to hear what the mind of the Spirit is saying in the law and prophets.

Paul saw this in those who wanted to be teachers of the letter of the law and those who thought they would be justified by the works of the law, (motions of the law) by being under the law. But these being yet in the flesh were unable to truly hear and see what the shadow of the law was truly symbolizing in many of those carnal ordinances.

Galatians 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Why couldn't they hear the spirit of the law? Because they were yet in the flesh.

Those who say the spirit of the law and testimony of Jesus Christ speak different things toward one another truly do not hear what the Spirit is saying in the law and prophets.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Again, you didn't answer my question. I suspect that the hypnotic state of mind induced by this doctrine does not allow you to do so.

The spiritual mind divides between the natural and the spiritual. The spiritual must be divided from the natural in order for there to be holiness. Yet this doctrine you speak of seeks to conflate the two into some sort of bizarre amalgam. Paul instructs us to rightly divide.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15​

I'm glad you gave this doctrine a name.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Again, you didn't answer my question. I suspect that the hypnotic state of mind induced by this doctrine does not allow you to do so.

The spiritual mind divides between the natural and the spiritual. The spiritual must be divided from the natural in order for there to be holiness. Yet this doctrine you speak of seeks to conflate the two into some sort of bizarre amalgam. Paul instructs us to rightly divide.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15​

I'm glad you gave this doctrine a name.

I answered the question but you like many others have a hard time hearing the answer. You came with the proposition and question that the Spirit working by grace and the Spirit of the law are speaking 2 different things, as if they are contrary to one another. Which I suppose is why you asked which one to obey, as if they are speaking 2 different things. But if the Holy Spirit is truly bearing witness to your conscience you wouldn't need to ask who to obey would you? That is because you would have the righteousness of the law written in your heart and mind, bearing witness to your conscience by the Holy Spirit.

This is not some strange new doctrine but the confirmation of the New Covenant and gospel of Jesus Christ confirmed also by the apostles. God is not the author of confusion and division, but of harmony and peace. It is mans lack of understanding into the spiritual things of God that brings confusion and division, not the Holy Spirit.

Seeing the harmony in the letter and the Spirit of the law is not hard to find. Like committing adultery for example, the letter of law says not to commit adultery, and so does the Holy Spirit bearing witness to our conscience. Thus we see having the law of Christ written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Are these 2 laws (letter and Spirit) opposed to one another? Hardly. Even Paul spoke of those who had not the written letter of the law being a law unto themselves by the Spirit bearing witness to their conscience, thus keeping the righteousness of the law.


It is the carnal mind that struggles with the keeping of the spiritual law because they have not the spiritual law written inwardly on their hearts, they only see it outwardly not quickened by the Spirit. So if any division or enmity exists, it exists in how one perceives the law, either by the Spirit bringing peace and harmony, or by the flesh and carnal mind bringing forth death by not being subject to the law of righteousness.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[ember]

There not need to be in a huff. I see you have your private agenda, possibly shared by a majority who will vot with ou, but the truth is, Jesus Christ is our Example to follow. This is taught in the Word.

You go ahead nd reas, but as far as I have experienced, the entry of the Holy Spirit into my heart impulsed me to shae the Word everywhere I could. I was to joyous to finish my studies at the U of Illinois, two months prior to my graduation with very good marks..

All I wanted nd want is to be like Jesus Christ. It is enough to be like Him, we can never achieve His perfection, but we do have a promise from Him, from our Father........

May God bless you and may you understand that faith will lead to works. Obedience forms only a part of good works.

well, perhaps the words 'private agenda' are also open to interpretation

you disagree with some folks...then you state they have a private agenda

I've got to say, that seems like the flip side of the coin you appear to be spinning

 

[ember]

Remember the solution given in the OP......Do what Jesus teaches and did.

you mean forgive our enemies and pray for those who persecute us without cause?

even Jesus had a devil in His apostles

I am really sorry to say this, but after reading through this thread, you actually appear to be saying do what I say, because Jesus has no problems with us questionning Him..God invites us to pour out our hearts to Him and you keep telling us to keep quiet...at odds with the Bible

This, is the topic...Jesus knew the hearts of all...we cannot and we do not...we cannot judge as did Jesus...righteously

You do not judge righteously because you fail to give any weight to the words of people who disagree with you

 

[MarcR]

Grace, Law? What about it? How do we resolve it.

KennethC gave me and all a reminder in Just-Me's wonderful thread on PHARISEES.

Here is the solution.

Do what Jesus teaches and did.

If you feel a need to argue this, you need His help right away.

Thank you Just-Me and KennethC..........

Jaume,

If the forum were in agreement about what Jesus taught; there would be no debacle to resolve.

It is the presence of different understandings of what Jesus taught that caused what you call a debacle; and only the Lord's bringing us all to correct understanding will resolve it.

 

[ember]

We have life through the law of the spirit of life...our sins are forgiven and the walk that we walk is in the strength of our Lord Jesus Christ...God is not looking for perfect people...He is looking for those who are perfect IN Him!

Life Through the Spirit

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[SUP]a[/SUP] free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[SUP]b[/SUP] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP]c[/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I answered the question but you like many others have a hard time hearing the answer.

No you didn't answer the question. You avoided it through your elaborate deflection mechanism of many words. The glaze that you have put over your mind is simply amazing. You have become so hypnotized by a paradigm that you're not even able to reason logically from what the text plainly says. It's like a mental disorder. Astonishing. A 5-year-old child could answer my question.

You're very close to the gnostics who think only those who have special knowledge can understand the truth.

 

[Kefa54]

The Bible says in Acts 17: 25, “Nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things.”

It really stokes our pride to think that we can do something for God. Yet the truth is that we cannot. Only God can do something for Himself. In His infinite grace, He allows us to participate in what He is doing by expressing His life through us.

God neither wants nor needs us to do anything for Him. God doesn’t need us, He wants us.

Jesus himself was empowered by God.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner” (John 5: 19).


Kefa