Is the Devil bound right now...?

[Cassian]

DiscipleDave,

Earlier in this thread I posted the explanation of Peter's Sermon at Pentecost which throws all the theories of premillennialism, dispensationalism, and an earthly reign of Christ ito the wastebasket.

Peter based his sermon of the following OT Truths which apparently the developers of these theories failed to read or just ignored them because it just did not fit their new idea.

Back in the OT God made this promise to David. "And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever. (2 Sa. 7:12-16). Three things were promised and three things were fulfilled.

When were they fulfilled?
David’s house (royal family) was established in the first century. Matthew begins his gospel by proclaiming Christ to be the Son of David, the Son of Abraham (Matt. 1:1). Many centuries before God had promised, through the prophet Amos, to raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages (Amos 9:11).

As well, in the OT the 'throne of God' is the same as 'throne of David'. The royal 'tabernacle' had been lost by Isreal when they left the theocracy. It was lost by Judah when they were carried off into Babylon.

David’s throne was established when God raised up the Christ to sit on his throne and exalted Him to the right hand of God (Acts 2:29-36) Peter's Sermon. Christ told the church at Laodicea, To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne (Rev. 3:21).

One must wonder who's throne it was in the first place. God had promised, even to Jacob, that kings would rule over Isreal. When Saul was crowned the first King and the people begged God to give them their king, this is what God said to Samuel: ‘Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.’ (1 Sam. 8:7).

The kings therefore were ruling Israel in place of God. It is not the other way around. This is what David said: And of all my sons (for the Lord has given me many sons) He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel (1 Chron. 28:5).

It might do you and every dispensationalist well to read (Jer. 22:30). It quite explicity throws out an earthly kingdom of Christ or even David's throne on the earth. To understand this curse one must follow the genealogies. (1 Chron. 3:16; Jer. 22:24). (1 Chron. 3:17; Matt. 1:12). Christ is a descendant of Shealtiel (Matt. 1:12). Then read: Ezekiel 21:27ff. Then jump to : Lk. 1:26-33. Since Christ is a descendant of Coniah, He cannot sit on the throne of David and rule in Judah! The truth is that Christ is on the throne of David but not in the land of Judah. He is on the throne of David in heaven where He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet (1 Cor. 15:25).

When Our Lord returns it will not be for the purpose of establishing an earthly kingdom. He is at this very moment the King of kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 17:14). He rules as sovereign King in His kingdom right now. When He returns He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power (1 Cor. 15:24). The Gentiles are without hope if Jesus is not on David's throne: Acts 15:13-18 NOW.

It seems Peter understood the OT and its prophecies and he does not speak about some earthly reign of Christ on this earth. It must be much different than the Bible used by premillennialists/dispensationalists. They overlook everything that does not make an earthly kingdom, yet the Bible never speaks of an earthly kingdom but Christ explicity makes the claim His Kingdom is not of this world.

All of the prophecies of the OT speak directly at the coming of Christ, the first time. This age, the messianic age is the fulfillment of all of these prophecies. If this were not so, then this age is a fairy tale. We are all living in limbo until such time that this EARTHLY kingdom is established.

Jesus is not only raised from the dead but has been exalted and crowned King of kings and Lord of lords 1Tim. 6:15. Jesus reigns on the heavenly throne of David at the right hand of God Heb. 12:2.

There is much more that Premillennialist ignore in order to shore up their false theory. But you stated that if even one idea is shown to be what scripture does not teach it is false. There can be no better example than premillennialism is a false teaching. You are certainly welcome to believe in some earthly kingdom still to come.

However, if you have evidence that it was always believed by the Apostles, taught by the Apostles and believed without change over the last 2000 years, cite those facts.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Very simply the binding of Satan has to do with Satan losing his absolute power over death.

Well, let's check to see if your claim is correct Cassian.

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

So, does the above verse say, "Very simply the binding of Satan has to do with Satan losing his absolute power over death?"

No, it doesn't! It says that the angel is going to bind Satan in the ABYSS. The verse says nothing about the binding representing Satan losing his absolute power and while remaining free. It is merely implied by you, by adding it to the Scripture. The problem is the same, you ignore the words in the context in order to make your claim. At the sounding of the fifth trumpet, an angel requires the key to the Abyss to unlock it in order to let those demonic beings out. Here in Rev.20:1-2, another angel comes down out of heaven and has the same key, which is required to lock the Abyss back up. We know that the Abyss goes down into the earth and that because that angel who has the key at the fifth trumpet falls out of heaven to the earth and opens the Abyss, which demonstrates that it would have to be on the surface of the earth. Once the Abyss is opened, then those demonic beings come out of the shaft of the Abyss and land upon the surface of the earth.

I've said this before in many other posts, the Abyss where Satan is going to be bound in, is the same place that those demonic beings collectively called Legion begged Jesus not to send them into found in Luke 8:31. It is a real place and it requires a key to open it, whether corporeal, or spiritual, it doesn't matter because it serves the purpose of opening and locking the Abyss. The only reason that you continue to ignore this information is because it is detrimental to your interpretation. Why don't try putting aside the amillennialist teaching and honestly try looking at all of the words in the entire context of the passage.

* Angel from heaven

* Key to the Abyss

* Seizes Satan

* Satan bound in the Abyss

* A thousand years

* Unable to deceive the nations

I challenge you to give the scripture a truthful, honest, logical look.

 

[Cassian]

Well, let's check to see if your claim is correct Cassian.

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

So, does the above verse say, "Very simply the binding of Satan has to do with Satan losing his absolute power over death?"

No, it doesn't! It says that the angel is going to bind Satan in the ABYSS. The verse says nothing about the binding representing Satan losing his absolute power and while remaining free. It is merely implied by you, by adding it to the Scripture. The problem is the same, you ignore the words in the context in order to make your claim. At the sounding of the fifth trumpet, an angel requires the key to the Abyss to unlock it in order to let those demonic beings out. Here in Rev.20:1-2, another angel comes down out of heaven and has the same key, which is required to lock the Abyss back up. We know that the Abyss goes down into the earth and that because that angel who has the key at the fifth trumpet falls out of heaven to the earth and opens the Abyss, which demonstrates that it would have to be on the surface of the earth. Once the Abyss is opened, then those demonic beings come out of the shaft of the Abyss and land upon the surface of the earth.

I've said this before in many other posts, the Abyss where Satan is going to be bound in, is the same place that those demonic beings collectively called Legion begged Jesus not to send them into found in Luke 8:31. It is a real place and it requires a key to open it, whether corporeal, or spiritual, it doesn't matter because it serves the purpose of opening and locking the Abyss. The only reason that you continue to ignore this information is because it is detrimental to your interpretation. Why don't try putting aside the amillennialist teaching and honestly try looking at all of the words in the entire context of the passage.

* Angel from heaven

* Key to the Abyss

* Seizes Satan

* Satan bound in the Abyss

* A thousand years

* Unable to deceive the nations

I challenge you to give the scripture a truthful, honest, logical look.

Why do you follow such typical proof texting exercises. One verse in the Bible does not make a doctrine. You need to ignore so much of scripture. I have already posted all the texts that deal with Christ binding Satan and Rev 20:3 is not even needed. It just corroborates what is stated elsewhere in scripture. It is why it is so easy to show premillennial false because it is based on just one verse. If you change the word thousand to be symbolic as well as present time as it is used in scripture, then your whole theory is down the wastebasket.

I challenge you to do exactly what you advise, Take a much more serious look at all of scripture and you will find that premillennialism is not just false, but abrogates most of what Christ came to accomplish. It is a very good example of how Satan deceives with ideas that tickle the ears of men.

Why would anyone deny the Truth to hold to a false idea?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why do you follow such typical proof texting exercises. One verse in the Bible does not make a doctrine. You need to ignore so much of scripture. I have already posted all the texts that deal with Christ binding Satan and Rev 20:3 is not even needed. It just corroborates what is stated elsewhere in scripture. It is why it is so easy to show premillennial false because it is based on just one verse. If you change the word thousand to be symbolic as well as present time as it is used in scripture, then your whole theory is down the wastebasket.

I challenge you to do exactly what you advise, Take a much more serious look at all of scripture and you will find that premillennialism is not just false, but abrogates most of what Christ came to accomplish. It is a very good example of how Satan deceives with ideas that tickle the ears of men.

Oh, "follow such typical proof texting exercises" you mean presenting the truth?

One verse in the Bible does not make a doctrine.

Really? How about this one:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Now, do I need to go all over the Bible to validate the information above or can I believe what the verse says on its own? You respond the way you did because you are faced with the truth. But instead of taking what I said into consideration, you continue to fight tooth and nail using ridiculous logic. I'm just trying to get you to let go of the brain washing of amillennialism, letting go of the knee-jerk response and take a fresh, direct look at the face value of the scripture's.

If you change the word thousand to be symbolic as well as present time as it is used in scripture, then your whole theory is down the wastebasket.

And what you are doing, is not taking into consideration the context of the scripture itself, which should always be done first. I don't need to go look at Psalm 50:10 to understand that Rev.20:1-2 is speaking of a literal thousand years and because the verse stands on its own and gives the meaning. Once you go to Psalm 50:10 and apply that formula to Rev.20:1-2, then you have distorted the meaning and that because that is what you have learned from the false teaching of amillennium. It's a form of brain washing!

You need to ignore so much of scripture.

The above is exactly what not to do, that is, you don't ignore scripture, because that is where the source of truth comes from. Where else are you going to find out the truth? I gave you a challenge to give the scripture a truthful, hones and logical look and you reply with, that I should take my own advice. Well, I'm not the one who when the verse says that an angel is coming down out of heaven with the key to the Abyss, goes and looks for some other explanation other than what is written right in front of you. When the verse says that Satan is bound in the Abyss, I am not the one looking for some other meaning, because the one right in from of me is very clear to understand. There is no reason for me to go look for another meaning to what is being said. By doing so, you distort God's original meaning. You ignore the rest of the words in the context and apply the pre-package amil interpretation.

premillennialism is not just false, but abrogates most of what Christ came to accomplish.

Christ came to kin himself with humanity in order live a perfect life in the flesh, something that we could not do and then pay the penalty for sin and then return to the Father. How is removing his church from the earth before his wrath abrogating what he already accomplished? This sounds like something you read from an amillennial teacher. Unfortunately, because you are stuck in this teaching and continue to ignore the truth, you are just going to have to experience the literal truth of these things by going through the literal events themselves.

 

[VCO]

The saints will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period, not by being taken out of it. We don't want to run away while there are souls which can be saved.

I have news for you, Valiant; in a Jewish Wedding, the Wedding is always held in the house of Bridegroom's FATHER for a week long Ceremony; where the Bridegroom built the New Dwelling Place.

That final week of Years before the Second Coming:
is the 70th Week of Daniel,
also the fulfillment of Jacob's Trouble,
also the 7 Year so-called covenant peace treaty with Israel,
also the 7 Year Reign of the Anti-christ,
AND ALSO THE WEEK LONG WEDDING OF THE LAMB!

 

[VCO]

The saints will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period, not by being taken out of it. We don't want to run away while there are souls which can be saved.

The 144,000 Jews "will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period".

Now let me show ABSOLUTELY WHERE the Church-age saints, and Old Testament saints will be.

Revelation 19:5-21 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
[SUP]8 [/SUP] It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Zechariah 14:3-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone. NOT BEFORE

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.


Don't look now, but your theory of:
"the saints will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period"
was JUST BLOWN CLEAN OUT OF THE WATER.

 

[DP]

What they shall not escape is the wrath that will follow the resurrection and catching away that Paul had just previously outlined. And you are not understanding that no matter what you proclaim, God will not put his church through his time of wrath which covers that entire seven years. Therefore, regardless of anything that you bring about, believers must be gone prior to that first seal being opened.

You're still not reading that Scripture how it is written.

Paul said nothing about us escaping in that 1 Thess.5 chapter. He said we are not appointed to that "wrath" that will come on what day? On that "day of the Lord" he began his message with in verse 2.

The timing Paul is covering there is the "day of the Lord", and that it will come "as a thief in the night."

That "day of the Lord" timing is when the tribulation our Lord Jesus taught ends.

It is the time God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked (see Isaiah 2; Isaiah 34; Joel 3; 2 Pet.3:10). It is not meant for the faithful in Christ's Church, it is meant upon the wicked only. We can be on this earth and it will not touch us, for God is not angry with His faithful servants.

1 Thess 5:2-7
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

If you do not pay attention to what "day" Paul is talking about there in the first part of that chapter, you will not know which "wrath" Paul meant in that 1 Thess.5:9 verse. It's about the day of vengeance, the day of God's wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last day of this world.

 

[valiant]

I have news for you, Valiant; in a Jewish Wedding, the Wedding is always held in the house of Bridegroom's FATHER for a week long Ceremony; where the Bridegroom built the New Dwelling Place.

Stale so-called news lol, and invalid. No one knows how Jewish weddings were conducted in 1st century AD and before. All we know about are later Rabbinical ideas. So you statement is completely unverified and meaningless. Someone is kidding you.

Most secular ceremonies in ancient days were for seven days, including Samson's. It was time off from the hardness of life. It has nothing to do with any seven year period. Your ideas are just fantasy to suit yourself,

[quot]That final week of Years before the Second Coming:
is the 70th Week of Daniel,
also the fulfillment of Jacob's Trouble,
also the 7 Year so-called covenant peace treaty with Israel,
also the 7 Year Reign of the Anti-christ,
AND ALSO THE WEEK LONG WEDDING OF THE LAMB![/QUOTE]

All stretching the imagination without an atom of proof. Whatever the seven sevens in Daniel 9 represent it followed immediately after the sixty ninth seven. Any other suggestion is cancelling out Scripture and distorting its meaning

 

[Cassian]

Ahwatukeem,

Really? How about this one:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Now, do I need to go all over the Bible to validate the information above or can I believe what the verse says on its own? You respond the way you did because you are faced with the truth. But instead of taking what I said into consideration, you continue to fight tooth and nail using ridiculous logic. I'm just trying to get you to let go of the brain washing of amillennialism, letting go of the knee-jerk response and take a fresh, direct look at the face value of the scripture's.

It is great you picked that verse because I can list several threads on that topic in this forum where most have no idea of what it actually means.

I'm not the one who is branwashed. You have yet to produce any evidence that premillennialism was taught by the Apostles and throughout Church history as a major doctrine of Christianity. I have already given you many examples that the Aposltes did not believe in premillennialism nor an earthly reign of Christ.

And what you are doing, is not taking into consideration the context of the scripture itself, which should always be done first. I don't need to go look at Psalm 50:10 to understand that Rev.20:1-2 is speaking of a literal thousand years and because the verse stands on its own and gives the meaning. Once you go to Psalm 50:10 and apply that formula to Rev.20:1-2, then you have distorted the meaning and that because that is what you have learned from the false teaching of amillennium. It's a form of brain washing!

I donj't need to go back to Ps 50:10. There ios nothing literal about the entire section of of verses that begin Chapter 20. Everything is symbolic, you want to have a literal thousand, you need a literal Satan as a dragon, you need a literal chain, a literal abyss and a literal key. How rediculous and Impe thinks there will be 6 feet of blood in Isreal 200 miles long and 200 miles wide Palestine is not even that big. You need horses and chariots and a lot of other symbols all made literal if you want things to be literal. It actually denies that the writing is not actual but apocylptical. It turns scripture at every turn on its head. And on a theory that asbsolutely nothing to do with one's salvation.
No man will ever go through millennial period as described by premillennials. But every person who lived in this Messianic Age will have gone through the millennium scripture teaches.

You can believe what you will, man has always done so. Man always thinks his ideas are much better than what the Holy Spirit has given and has preserved. Man will continue to do so and get worse towards the end. This is but only one of many today that are false and tickling the minds and ears of men. It is only 200 years old from its first modern version and after 200 years most have no idea yet what it would actually mean if it was actually scriptural. Just another test of a beliefs authenticity, if has many versions, it cannot be Biblical Truth.

But I notice not a shred of evidence again that premillennialism is as well known as the Trinity from the beginning to the present day. You assert but no evidence. Assertions prove nothing, just empty words.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

The saints will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period, not by being taken out of it. We don't want to run away while there are souls which can be saved.

The 144,000 Jews "will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period".

you discredit yourself before you start LOL How can members of all the tribes of Israel except Dan be Jews?

The 144000 who are sealed by God represent the whole church of Jesus Christ in symbolic form. Compare James 1.1 who speaks of the church as the twelve tribes of Israel. The whole church is sealed by God (Eph 1.13; 4.30) and have been and will be protected through the 2000 years of tribulation from the time of John.

Now let me show ABSOLUTELY WHERE the Church-age saints, and Old Testament saints will be.

LOL Prophet VCO is speaking folk Hear ye him!!!!! LOL LOL

Revelation 19:5-21 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
[SUP]8 [/SUP] It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

This is a description of what will happen to God's people at the end of the age when Christ comes and takes His people to be with Himself. It is presented in vivid pictorial language. One bride made up of billions of Christians!!!!

[SUP]11 [/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

This is a picture of God's final judgment on the world, including the beast and the false prophet. No battle is described. All are slain by the sword of His mouth. I'm not sure how it proves what you say but I guess dogmatists can see anything.

Zechariah 14:3-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.

A description of God as the heavenly warrior going out to win the nations for Christ {Isaiah 59.16-20).

[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.

Jesus Christ did take His stand on the mount of olives in c 33 AD, It was full of olive trees which in Z
chariah represent witnesses (Zech 4). As a consequence of His mighty activity He dispersed His messengers north and south.

[SUP]
5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

As we know the church fled from Jerusalem and went out and evangelised the world.

Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.

God Himself led the assault along with His holy ones. In other words the LORD Jesus Christ and His messengers.

[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no cold or frost, there will be continuous day. [SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, not day or night, but at eventide there will be light.

This cannot be literal. It refers to God's light being continually revealed to the world as the Gospel went out to them.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.

So the Gospel will go out, flowing out from Jerusalem continually both east and west (previously it was shown as going north and south)

[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone. NOT BEFORE

As a consequence of the spread of the Gospel YHWH will become king over all the earth. In every nation men and women will submit to Him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

Yes the transformation of the saints will occur at te second coming of Christ at the end of the age. No thought of some intervening period.

Don't look now, but your theory of:
"the saints will escape God's wrath by being protected through that period"
was JUST BLOWN CLEAN OUT OF THE WATER.

Sorry I missed it LOL. Can you do it again? LOL LOL LOL

 

[valiant]

The use of 'a thousand' in Scripture:

Note on the Biblical Use of ‘A Thousand’.
We do not intend to discuss the question of what a ‘thousand’ indicates when it is used as a part of larger numbers, only its significance when used on its own, as here. Nor will we consider its use when it means a military or family unit. There are a good number of examples of its use on its own:
1). In many cases it is used simply in order to indicate a large amount. Thus:

• ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as you are, and bless you, as He has promised you!’ (Deuteronomy 1.11). Here it is simply the equivalent of our saying, ‘I have a thousand things to do.’ It simply means, ‘many times’.
• ‘And the man said to Joab, ‘Though I should receive a thousand shekels of silver in my hand, yet would I not put forth mine hand against the king's son: for in our hearing the king charged you and Abishai and Ittai, saying, Beware that none touch the young man Absalom (2 Samuel 18.12). This is similar to the first case and simply means a large round number. The ‘thousand’ was figurative.
• ‘And he spoke three thousand proverbs, and his songs were a thousand and five’ (1 Kings 4.32). Here we have a generalisation probably indicating a huge number of proverbs and a large number of songs.’ Compare how we might say, ‘I’ve got thousands of them’, and ‘I have a thousand and one things to do’.
• ‘For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills’ (Psalm 50.10). We can assume that no one asks who the cattle on the other hills belong to. Here a thousand hills point to all hills.
• ‘Your neck is like the tower of David built for an armoury, on which there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men’ (Song of Solomon 4.4). Again the significance is of a large number.
• ‘And it shall come about in that day, that every place will be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briars and thorns (Isaiah 7.23). Again the significance is of a large number.
• ‘Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand’ (Daniel 5.1). It is doubtful if this is intended to indicate an actual number. It rather means a large number of lords.

2). More significant in this context are the examples where ‘a thousand’ is used with a time word indicating the passage of time:

• ‘Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations’ (Deuteronomy 7.9). We suspect here that no one would suggest here that God’s mercy would fail once the thousand generations were past, nor that it bound God specifically to a thousand generations. It simply means a great many.
• ‘For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of My God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness’ (Psalm 84.10). Again the significance of ‘a thousand’ is ‘many’, and once more in a time context.
• ‘For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night’ (Psalm 90.4). Here the idea is of a large number, (he could have used any large round number). It is important here because it refers both to how God sees time, and to a time context.
• ‘He has remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations’ (Psalm 105.8). Here again we have a reference to God’s view of time and it is related specifically to the passing of time and to a time word, ‘generations’. No one would suggest that here the idea is that after a thousand generation He would forget His covenant, nor that He is indicating that a thousand generations will actually be achieved.
• ‘Yes, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet has he seen no good. Do not all go to one place?’ (Ecclesiastes 6.6). Here ‘a thousand years’ signifies a long time, and interestingly it can without difficulty be seen as two thousand.

All this would seem to stress that when God says ‘a thousand years’ it simply means a long extent of time.

Taken from Dr Peter Pett's commentary The Book of Revelation

 

[Ahwatukee]

The use of 'a thousand' in Scripture:

Note on the Biblical Use of ‘A Thousand’.
We do not intend to discuss the question of what a ‘thousand’ indicates when it is used as a part of larger numbers, only its significance when used on its own, as here. Nor will we consider its use when it means a military or family unit. There are a good number of examples of its use on its own:
1). In many cases it is used simply in order to indicate a large amount. Thus:

• ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as you are, and bless you, as He has promised you!’ (Deuteronomy 1.11). Here it is simply the equivalent of our saying, ‘I have a thousand things to do.’ It simply means, ‘many times’.
• ‘And the man said to Joab, ‘Though I should receive a thousand shekels of silver in my hand, yet would I not put forth mine hand against the king's son: for in our hearing the king charged you and Abishai and Ittai, saying, Beware that none touch the young man Absalom (2 Samuel 18.12). This is similar to the first case and simply means a large round number. The ‘thousand’ was figurative.
• ‘And he spoke three thousand proverbs, and his songs were a thousand and five’ (1 Kings 4.32). Here we have a generalisation probably indicating a huge number of proverbs and a large number of songs.’ Compare how we might say, ‘I’ve got thousands of them’, and ‘I have a thousand and one things to do’.
• ‘For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills’ (Psalm 50.10). We can assume that no one asks who the cattle on the other hills belong to. Here a thousand hills point to all hills.
• ‘Your neck is like the tower of David built for an armoury, on which there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men’ (Song of Solomon 4.4). Again the significance is of a large number.
• ‘And it shall come about in that day, that every place will be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briars and thorns (Isaiah 7.23). Again the significance is of a large number.
• ‘Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand’ (Daniel 5.1). It is doubtful if this is intended to indicate an actual number. It rather means a large number of lords.

2). More significant in this context are the examples where ‘a thousand’ is used with a time word indicating the passage of time:

• ‘Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations’ (Deuteronomy 7.9). We suspect here that no one would suggest here that God’s mercy would fail once the thousand generations were past, nor that it bound God specifically to a thousand generations. It simply means a great many.
• ‘For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of My God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness’ (Psalm 84.10). Again the significance of ‘a thousand’ is ‘many’, and once more in a time context.
• ‘For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night’ (Psalm 90.4). Here the idea is of a large number, (he could have used any large round number). It is important here because it refers both to how God sees time, and to a time context.
• ‘He has remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations’ (Psalm 105.8). Here again we have a reference to God’s view of time and it is related specifically to the passing of time and to a time word, ‘generations’. No one would suggest that here the idea is that after a thousand generation He would forget His covenant, nor that He is indicating that a thousand generations will actually be achieved.
• ‘Yes, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet has he seen no good. Do not all go to one place?’ (Ecclesiastes 6.6). Here ‘a thousand years’ signifies a long time, and interestingly it can without difficulty be seen as two thousand.

All this would seem to stress that when God says ‘a thousand years’ it simply means a long extent of time.

Taken from Dr Peter Pett's commentary The Book of Revelation

Valiant,

Forget the biblical use of a thousand found elsewhere in scripture and pay attention to its use right there in the context of Rev.20. Why is that if the word of God says "The sky is Blue" you ignore that information and you go searching throughout rest of scripture to find out what the sky is blue, means. And when your done, you answer is, "It represents the French revolution." Why don't you just accept what the word of God says in its plain meaning? Not everything is a parable or symbolic, which is the case here in Rev.20. The thousand years here is exactly that, a thousand years.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

The use of 'a thousand' in Scripture:

Note on the Biblical Use of ‘A Thousand’.
We do not intend to discuss the question of what a ‘thousand’ indicates when it is used as a part of larger numbers, only its significance when used on its own, as here. Nor will we consider its use when it means a military or family unit. There are a good number of examples of its use on its own:
1). In many cases it is used simply in order to indicate a large amount. Thus:

• ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as you are, and bless you, as He has promised you!’ (Deuteronomy 1.11). Here it is simply the equivalent of our saying, ‘I have a thousand things to do.’ It simply means, ‘many times’.
• ‘And the man said to Joab, ‘Though I should receive a thousand shekels of silver in my hand, yet would I not put forth mine hand against the king's son: for in our hearing the king charged you and Abishai and Ittai, saying, Beware that none touch the young man Absalom (2 Samuel 18.12). This is similar to the first case and simply means a large round number. The ‘thousand’ was figurative.
• ‘And he spoke three thousand proverbs, and his songs were a thousand and five’ (1 Kings 4.32). Here we have a generalisation probably indicating a huge number of proverbs and a large number of songs.’ Compare how we might say, ‘I’ve got thousands of them’, and ‘I have a thousand and one things to do’.
• ‘For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills’ (Psalm 50.10). We can assume that no one asks who the cattle on the other hills belong to. Here a thousand hills point to all hills.
• ‘Your neck is like the tower of David built for an armoury, on which there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men’ (Song of Solomon 4.4). Again the significance is of a large number.
• ‘And it shall come about in that day, that every place will be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briars and thorns (Isaiah 7.23). Again the significance is of a large number.
• ‘Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand’ (Daniel 5.1). It is doubtful if this is intended to indicate an actual number. It rather means a large number of lords.

2). More significant in this context are the examples where ‘a thousand’ is used with a time word indicating the passage of time:

• ‘Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations’ (Deuteronomy 7.9). We suspect here that no one would suggest here that God’s mercy would fail once the thousand generations were past, nor that it bound God specifically to a thousand generations. It simply means a great many.
• ‘For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of My God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness’ (Psalm 84.10). Again the significance of ‘a thousand’ is ‘many’, and once more in a time context.
• ‘For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night’ (Psalm 90.4). Here the idea is of a large number, (he could have used any large round number). It is important here because it refers both to how God sees time, and to a time context.
• ‘He has remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations’ (Psalm 105.8). Here again we have a reference to God’s view of time and it is related specifically to the passing of time and to a time word, ‘generations’. No one would suggest that here the idea is that after a thousand generation He would forget His covenant, nor that He is indicating that a thousand generations will actually be achieved.
• ‘Yes, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet has he seen no good. Do not all go to one place?’ (Ecclesiastes 6.6). Here ‘a thousand years’ signifies a long time, and interestingly it can without difficulty be seen as two thousand.

All this would seem to stress that when God says ‘a thousand years’ it simply means a long extent of time.

Taken from Dr Peter Pett's commentary The Book of Revelation

Valiant,

Forget the biblical use of a thousand found elsewhere in scripture

What wonderful advice. And what an extraordinary statement. FORGET WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ELSEWHERE. I think that sums you up to a tee. 'Don't bother with Scripture, just look at my private interpretation.'

At least you have admitted that ON THE BASIS OF WHAT SCIPTURE SAYS ELSEWHERE 'a thousand' should be seen as indefinite!!!!!

and pay attention to its use right there in the context of Rev.20. '

Are you saying that I should not pay attention to it IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE? It is surely in the light of Scripture that its use in rev 20 should be determined? Right there in the context of Rev 20 'a thousand' signifies an large indefinite number just as it does elsewhere in Scripture. Case proven!!!

Why is that if the word of God says "The sky is Blue" you ignore that information

I did not realise that BLUE was a number word? And in fact I know that the sky is not blue without being told. It only appears blue. You both need to take elementary science lessons and are just being facetious. oooops forgive me for mentioning science. You probably don't know what it is.

No I do not ignore the information that Scripture gives. It is YOU who has just admitted to doing that. I interpret them in the light of other Scripture.

and you go searching throughout rest of scripture to find out what the sky is blue, means.

Well I don't, but wouldn't that be the right thing to do on a subject on which there was any doubt?

And when your done, you answer is, "It represents the French revolution."

WOW history as well. Be careful you might strain your brain.

Why don't you just accept what the word of God says in its plain meaning?

I do, and the plain meaning of 'a thousand' according to Scripture is a large indefinite number.

Not everything is a parable or symbolic, which is the case here in Rev.20.

I'm pleased that you admit that Rev 20 is parable or symbolic, although it isn't. What it is is a word about a long indefinite period in which Christ ruled and Satan was restrained..

The thousand years here is exactly that, a thousand years.

PROVE IT. In the light of other Scripture it is clearly NOT to be taken literally. We who interpret Scripture rightly do so in the light of other Scriptures, and you have basically admitted that other Scriptures do not use 1000 literally.

And this is especially important when dealing with a controversial chapter which present something which if it was taken literally would be unique in Scripture. Millennialism is NOT a Scriptural teaching.

 

[DP]

I assure that I am not misled. The problem with many expositors is that they have made the event of the resurrection and catching away synonymous with Christ's coming to end the age, when they are two separate events.

The actual problem is men's doctrines supplanted in place of God's Word to make the deceived believe ideas like your's above.

Jesus said in Rev.16:15 to His Church, "Behold, I come as a thief...". In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul said "the day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Apostle Peter showed the same in 2 Pet.3:10.

Thus, the ONLY way for those Scriptures to align to the pre-trib rapture doctrine you hold to is to say the opposite, like Jesus does NOT come "as a thief". Yet, He said He does come as a thief, which aligns with that "day of the Lord" timing Paul was teaching in the 1 Thess.5 chapter.

That's why I KNOW... you did not get the pre-trib rapture doctrine on your own. You heard it from men, and you chose to believe in their supplanted doctrines instead of the Scripture as written. That's your choice to make, but what you have chosen to believe does not align with those Scriptures.

Thus your "problem" is indeed with "many expositors", specifically those ones pushing doctrines of men like the pre-trib secret rapture (yes, John Darby taught it would be a 'secret' coming of Christ in the first years of that doctrine).

[/COLOR][/B]As I previously stated, those who are being gathered when Christ comes is not the Church, but the great tribulation saints and Israel, who will have lived through the wrath of God and the persecution of the beast and who will still be in their mortal bodies. The phrase "the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is in reference to those living being gathered from every part earth. According to 1 Thes.4:16-18, angels do not gather us, but the Lord himself. In fact scripture states that at the resurrection we are changed into our glorified bodies, becoming like the angels in heaven.

There's more proof who you've been listening to, because that "tribulation saints" idea is NOT your own, nor does it come from God's Word; it's an old term the pre-trib rapture doctors coined long ago.

Nowhere in God's Word is it written that Jesus will come to gather only a PART of His Church from the earth, period.

Regardless of when a believer comes to Christ Jesus in this world, all the way to the end on the "day of the Lord", they are part of Christ's Church, and will never be part of those "left behind" as those pre-trib rapture doctors like to say.

That's why there is ONLY written a ONE TIME gathering by Jesus of His Church, the 'asleep' saints from Heaven He brings with Him per Paul, and also ALL His Church still alive on earth when He comes, which Paul also taught (1 Thess.4). That is why those Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures about that gathering are aligned with 1 Thess.4 perfectly. The "tribulation saints" doctrine was coined by the pre-trib rapture doctors to try and deny those Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures of that gathering to Christ.

It is a well known tactic to attempt to discredit the one that you are debating with, which is what your are attempting to do above.

It is also a well known tactic for those on the pre-trib rapture theory to try to CLAIM that against them. It is not your credibility that is in question. It is the doctrine you have chosen to accept, which I well know is not a doctrine you came up with on your own. It began in 1830's Great Britain. The "tribulation saints" idea began from them, not you. So really, you have told on yourself by quoting their phrase.

But I assure you, I have over 40 years of study on all Biblical subjects and I would not be proclaiming these things to you unless I was sure of them.

And I would not be trying to show you per actual written Scripture how the pre-trib rapture theory does NOT align with Scripture about the time and event of Christ gathering His Church unless I were sure of it. That because the Scripture is really not that difficult to understand if it is read as written.

So then, prove to me, using your 40+ years of Bible study experience, quoting Scripture, that Jesus does not come "as a thief in the night" on "the day of the Lord" to gather His Church from the earth.

By the Rev.16:15 Scripture I have already shown that He does, as He was speaking that to His Church on earth, and not to a pre-trib doctor's "tribulation saints" idea.

The Lord is going to remove his church prior to his wrath, which begins at the seven years and when he returns seven years later, we will return with him riding on white horses. The event of Rev.20:4 is a resurrection of the great tribulation saints who will have been killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This is a resurrection only, for there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up. The church is not in view here. In fact, you will not find the church even mentioned from Rev.4 onward demonstrating that it is gone. It is not until Rev.22:17 which is outside of the narrative that the church is once again mentioned. The only word that you will find to describe believers during the time of God's wrath from Rev.4 onward is Hagios/saints, which is referring to those saints that come out of the great tribulation who are introduced in Rev.7. These are not the church, but are those who will become believers after the church has been removed.

You are terribly wrong about that... here, on the 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus is speaking to His Church on earth, just prior to the pouring out of the 7th final Vial...

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV


1 Thess 5:6
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

Do you think that warning to watch is both aligned in those two Scriptures???

Our Lord Jesus is speaking in the first one, Apostle Paul in the second one. Paul was covering the same warnings our Lord Jesus was, which is the same warning to 'watch' Jesus covered at the end of Matt.24 also, but per pre-trib doctrine says that chapter is meant only for "tribulation saints", even as you've said yourself. So how can our Lord Jesus be saying that same thing to supposed "tribulation saints" in that Rev.16:15 verse idea that Apostle Paul also said in 1 Thess.5 to the Thessalonians, if the "tribulation saints" are not gathered at the same time with them???

 

[VCO]

Stale so-called news lol, and invalid. No one knows how Jewish weddings were conducted in 1st century AD and before. All we know about are later Rabbinical ideas. So you statement is completely unverified and meaningless. Someone is kidding you.

Most secular ceremonies in ancient days were for seven days, including Samson's. It was time off from the hardness of life. It has nothing to do with any seven year period. Your ideas are just fantasy to suit yourself,

[quot]That final week of Years before the Second Coming:
is the 70th Week of Daniel,
also the fulfillment of Jacob's Trouble,
also the 7 Year so-called covenant peace treaty with Israel,
also the 7 Year Reign of the Anti-christ,
AND ALSO THE WEEK LONG WEDDING OF THE LAMB!

All stretching the imagination without an atom of proof. Whatever the seven sevens in Daniel 9 represent it followed immediately after the sixty ninth seven. Any other suggestion is cancelling out Scripture and distorting its meaning[/QUOTE]

You do not know Jews NOR their strict adherence to KEEPING celebration exactly the Same as they were kept from the time they were instituted, do you?

FOR EXAMPLE:

Passover has been celebrated EXACTLY the same way for OVER 3000 years.

HOW did they keep it IDENTICAL, they wrote a book, directing how it was to be celebrated. That Passover Seder book was painstakingly copied over the generations, and that book is opened and followed to the letter at every Passover. The Haggadah - which means "the telling" - is the book used at the Passover seder. The Haggadah explains the foods on the seder plate, recounts the highlights of the Exodus, and includes songs, prayers, questions and vignettes. Here is a Haggadah from the 14th Century, and a modern Table set exactly as the Haggadah prescribes it to be set:

The same STRICT ADHERENCE to the TRADITIONS, also applies to Weddings.

I will correct myself, the WEDDING CEREMONY was traditionally under the Stars of Heaven under a canopy called a Chuppah near the Bridegroom's Father's House; unless it was inclimate weather, then it was indoors. Here are two pictures of the MANDATORY modern day CHUPPAH's being set up:

Chuppah from the early 1800's

If Jews paid that much time making sure the Chappah was right, SO WOULD THEY KEEP THE REST OF THE TRADITIONS RIGHT:

 

[DP]

I assure that I am not misled. The problem with many expositors is that they have made the event of the resurrection and catching away synonymous with Christ's coming to end the age, when they are two separate events. The fist one is a promise to the church dead and living to gather them together in the air where they are taken back to the Father's house (heaven). Christ's return to end the age takes place at the end of the seven years, sometime after the seventh bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath and the church are those who are seen riding out of heaven on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean, following the Lord as he descends, the Bride, his called, chosen and faithful followers.

[/COLOR][/B]As I previously stated, those who are being gathered when Christ comes is not the Church, but the great tribulation saints and Israel, who will have lived through the wrath of God and the persecution of the beast and who will still be in their mortal bodies. The phrase "the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is in reference to those living being gathered from every part earth. According to 1 Thes.4:16-18, angels do not gather us, but the Lord himself. In fact scripture states that at the resurrection we are changed into our glorified bodies, becoming like the angels in heaven.

It is a well known tactic to attempt to discredit the one that you are debating with, which is what your are attempting to do above. But I assure you, I have over 40 years of study on all Biblical subjects and I would not be proclaiming these things to you unless I was sure of them. The Lord is going to remove his church prior to his wrath, which begins at the seven years and when he returns seven years later, we will return with him riding on white horses. The event of Rev.20:4 is a resurrection of the great tribulation saints who will have been killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This is a resurrection only, for there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up. The church is not in view here. In fact, you will not find the church even mentioned from Rev.4 onward demonstrating that it is gone. It is not until Rev.22:17 which is outside of the narrative that the church is once again mentioned. The only word that you will find to describe believers during the time of God's wrath from Rev.4 onward is Hagios/saints, which is referring to those saints that come out of the great tribulation who are introduced in Rev.7. These are not the church, but are those who will become believers after the church has been removed.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Since you are only giving a summary view of man's Pre-trib Rapture theory, I will give mine about Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, but according to Scripture.

The signs which Jesus was giving His saints with Him upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are... the seven signs He gave in His Revelation through Apostle John to the seven Churches in Asia. They specifically match the Seals Jesus gave in Revelation 6, the last sign in that chapter being about His coming and reign.

The very last, and final sign Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse was that of His 2nd coming to gather all of His Church, both from Heaven and from the earth (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

Per Paul in 1 Thess.4, we know Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He returns, and at the same timing will gather the alive saints still on earth. No mention of angels He sends to do that gathering is in that 1 Thess.4 chapter, but... there are angels that do that gathering as mentioned in the Matt.13 parable of the "tares". In that parable He said the angels are the reapers at harvest time, and those angels also gather the good wheat to His barn. The good wheat ("good seed") in that parable He said are "the children of the kingdom" (Matt.13:38). Are you a child of Christ's future manifested Kingdom? If you are a believer on Christ Jesus as God's Promised Savior, regardless of your nationality, then yes, you are a child of His future Kingdom, for that is especially... about His Church made up of believers from all nations.

And recall what our Lord Jesus said to those of Israel that rejected Him:

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV


Even in the parable of the wicked husbandmen of the vineyard, Jesus showed the relationship of His Church with His future Kingdom:

Matt 21:40-43
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."
42 Jesus saith unto them, "Did ye never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?'
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
KJV

Jesus is represented by that "lord" of the vineyard there. The unbelieving Jews that rejected Him as Messiah are those "wicked men" in that parable. Believing Israelites and Gentiles joined together represent that "nation" that kingdom will be given to, and that definitely is about Christ's Church. That also reveals another idea the Pre-trib Rapture theorists came up with as false, i.e., their false idea that His Church has no part in the Kingdom promised to Israel. Ephesians 2 by Apostle Paul also disproves John Darby's Dispensationalist theories on that point.



Moreover, in Matt.25, our Lord Jesus showed that when He and all His angels come, He will send His angels to separate His sheep from ALL NATIONS and the sheep will inherit the Kingdom prepared for them since the foundation of the world. That is NOT specific to just the seed of Israel, but specific to ALL NATIONS of believers on Christ Jesus which make up His many-member Body, His Church. And when is any Gentile believer on Christ Jesus NOT one of His "sheep" per God's Word???

What Apostle Paul said about those who are to inherit that Kingdom from the foundation of the world; notice Paul was not speaking to Israel only, but to all believers on Christ Jesus, of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles:

Eph 1:4-5
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
KJV


As a matter of fact, there is so much written in the NT Epistles about believers on Christ from all nations (His Church) inheriting that Kingdom, (even with Abraham), that it would make up another small book.

 

[valiant]

All stretching the imagination without an atom of proof. Whatever the seven sevens in Daniel 9 represent it followed immediately after the sixty ninth seven. Any other suggestion is cancelling out Scripture and distorting its meaning

You do not know Jews NOR their strict adherence to KEEPING celebration exactly the Same as they were kept from the time they were instituted, do you?

I know Jews, but I also know that they DO NOT strictly adhere to keeping celebrations the same as from when they were instituted. How could they? They do not know how they were then observed. That they do is just a myth perpetuated by you for your own purposes. It is NOT accepted by those who are deeply knowledgeable in Jewish teching. The only knowledge we have in detail of how such celebrations were kept is regarding Rabbinical ideas and Rabbinical teachings from long AFTER the time of Christ.

FOR EXAMPLE:

Passover has been celebrated EXACTLY the same way for OVER 3000 years.

LOL I suppose you were there at the first Passover? Tell me, if Passover was observed in EXACTLY the same way why did they not always slay the lamb in their homes as they did at the first Passover? At what stage did the slaying of the Passover lamb pass to the Temple? Give me PROOF. And when you do you will disprove yourself.

We simply have NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL of how Passover was observed through the centuries (in those times when it was observed). We DO KNOW that the Rabbis practised it differently from the way that Jesus Christ practised it. They ARGUE about how it should be observed.

HOW did they keep it IDENTICAL, they wrote a book, directing how it was to be celebrated.

Give me proof of when the Passover Sedek book was FIRST written. PROOF. PROOF. Not fantasy.

That Passover Seder book was painstakingly copied over the generations

,

From when? And if you say from the beginning you are a liar. The book is never mentioned in Scripture. It simply did not exist in Old Testament times.

and that book is opened and followed to the letter at every Passover.

And will have changed through the centuries. BUT IT DID NOT EXIST IN OLD TESTAMENT TIMES.

The Haggadah - which means "the telling" - is the book used at the Passover seder.

The Haggadah you are describing is a post Christian writing.

The Haggadah explains the foods on the seder plate, recounts the highlights of the Exodus, and includes songs, prayers, questions and vignettes.

And was produced by the Rabbis long after the time of Christ!!!!!

Here is a Haggadah from the 14th Century,

yes 14th century AD. By then the Jews had become set in their ways. 14th century AD is comparatively MODERN. , And if you are foolishly suggesting dating it in 1400 BC which would be ridiculous you will have to prove it, which you could not possibly do..

and a modern Table set exactly as the Haggadah prescribes it to be set:

So what does that prove?

The same STRICT ADHERENCE to the TRADITIONS, also applies to Weddings.

Total nonsense and completely unproveable !!!!! We KNOW that there were differences in wedding ceremonies (which religiously were not very important). It was the BETROTHAL that mattered to Jews. The binding covenant of union.

I will correct myself, the WEDDING CEREMONY was traditionally under the Stars of Heaven under a canopy called a Chuppah near the Bridegroom's Father's House; unless it was inclimate weather, then it was indoors. Here are two pictures of the MANDATORY modern day CHUPPAH's being set up:

Please provide Scriptural source for this statement. Outside of Scripture we know NOTHING about pre-exile ceremonies. You are talking hogwash!!!

We are not talking about MODERN DAY CHUPPAS. And those are the only ones we can be sure of the details of!!!!

Chuppah from the early 1800's

If Jews paid that much time making sure the Chappah was right, SO WOULD THEY KEEP THE REST OF THE TRADITIONS RIGHT:

Very pretty pictures but comparatively modern. But they tell us nothing about the ancient chuppah. The chuppah was of tent-like curtains and varied considerably between weddings. Putting it in big letters DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING BUT YOUR PERFIDY.

[/QUOTE

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LOL are these pictures taken at the Exodus? If you can swallow all that you are clearly unworthy of trust in important matters..

 

[VCO]

I know Jews, but I also know that they DO NOT strictly adhere to keeping celebrations the same as from when they were instituted. How could they? They do not know how they were then observed. That they do is just a myth perpetuated by you for your own purposes. It is NOT accepted by those who are deeply knowledgeable in Jewish teching. The only knowledge we have in detail of how such celebrations were kept is regarding Rabbinical ideas and Rabbinical teachings from long AFTER the time of Christ. . . .

SURPRISE, your teachers OBVIOUSLY know EXTREMELY LITTLE about the Teachings of Jewish Rabbi's. At least what I have learned, comes mostly from people who were born and raised as JEWS. Those who I have learned from include:

Dr. Zola Levitt
Jews for Jesus
Jewish Voice
Beth Sar Shalom Fellowship
Eliezer Urbach
Jewish Wedding Customs and the Bride of Messiah
Portrait of a Messianic Jewish Wedding - Jews for Jesus
Ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and Yeshua's Second Coming | Messianic Bible
etc., etc.

During the eyrusin period, the groom was to prepare a place for his bride, while the bride focused on her personal preparations – wedding garments, lamps, etc.Although the bride knew to expect her groom after about a year, she did not know the exact day or hour. He could come earlier, and it was the father of the groom who gave final approval for him to return to collect his bride.
Ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and Yeshua's Second Coming | Messianic Bible

I believe OUR NEW DWELLING PLACE, that will be our Bridal Chamber is the New City Jerusalem in heaven that will eventually be lowered onto the New Earth.

BELIEVE ME, I do not trust your teachers to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

[VCO]

. . .
We simply have NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL of how Passover was observed through the centuries (in those times when it was observed). . . .



Give me proof of when the Passover Sedek book was FIRST written. PROOF. PROOF. Not fantasy...

You do know YOUR DEMAND FOR PROOF, is exactly identical to the DEMANDS for proof of the existence of Christ as a real person THAT COMES DAILY FROM ATHEISTS. So you are an unbeliever, it is no skin off my nose if you remain so.

'Mazel Tov' exhibit celebrates Jewish wedding traditions
Museum educator Ellie Gettinger describes the features of a special chuppah, or wedding canopy, on display as part of a new exhibit on Jewish wedding traditions at the Jewish Museum Milwaukee.

That chuppah, a contemporary adaptation of an ancient ritual item, is the centerpiece of a new exhibit - "Mazel Tov: A Celebration of Jewish Weddings" - at the Jewish Museum Milwaukee.

Like I said, you know extremely little about the dedication of Jews to keeping rituals identical.

LEARN, if you want to:

[video]http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118[/video]

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said > Know you not that is what satan does, he tempts, the whole purpose of satan is to tempt, being bound is for him not to be able to tempt. Tell me, if he is bound, HOW is he bound then, if he tempts before and during and after he is bound according to you, If he tempts people before being bound, and he tempts people while being bound, How is he bound, tell me if you can? If satan can roam to and fro and tempt people, and you say he is bound, yet is still able to roam to and fro and tempt people, how is he bound? you do error not understanding what it means to be bound.

DiscipleDave,
I know this may sound strange, but scripture disagrees with you and does Christ Himself.

And yet you did not reveal the Scriptures, nor what Jesus said that contradicts what i have said above. If you claim that what i said above disagrees with Scriptures and with Jesus, then reveal the Scriptures and reveal what Jesus said that contradicts. If you can't do that, then what i said is what you disagree with, and NOT what the Scriptures disagree with.

^i^ responding to post # 1080