True -- but not quite in the way most people think... 
I previously showed you the verses within the seals and trumpets where God's wrath is announced, demonstrating that they are apart of God's wrath.
When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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I don't know what you are getting at with the above, but Jesus is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and bowls. These are all the wrath of God and Jesus is initiating them.
I previously showed you the verses within the seals and trumpets where God's wrath is announced, demonstrating that they are apart of God's wrath.
I previously showed you the verses within the seals and trumpets where God's wrath is announced, demonstrating that they are apart of God's wrath.
G
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
What people need to understand is that - the Great Tribulation "comes at the hand of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background"...
The Great Tribulation is not a part of the Wrath of God. It is not "at the hand of God" / "dished out by God" --- you need to understand this, from a Biblical Order-Of-Events point-of-view.
The Great Tribulation is not a part of the Wrath of God. It is not "at the hand of God" / "dished out by God" --- you need to understand this, from a Biblical Order-Of-Events point-of-view.
G
EXACTLY!!! And many of the pre-trib folks simply refuse to forsake the erroneous doctrine they have been taught and search the scriptures for the [ real ] truth concerning the End Times Scenario - beginning their foundation on that which is simple and "blatently obvious" in the scriptures rather than a lot of modern-day-thinking-based "conjecture"...
And, you will not understand it correctly and properly until you "come to grips" with the fact that the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation are two separate things...
And, you will not understand it correctly and properly until you "come to grips" with the fact that the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation are two separate things...
P
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
When you are willing to "deal with" ( address ) that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures -- then, and only then, will you be able to begin to escape the "cloud" of mis-guided information from / with which you were taught concerning the End Times Scenario.
P
EXACTLY!!! And many of the pre-trib folks simply refuse to forsake the erroneous doctrine they have been taught and search the scriptures for the [ real ] truth concerning the End Times Scenario - beginning their foundation on that which is simple and "blatently obvious" in the scriptures rather than a lot of modern-day-thinking-based "conjecture"...
And, you will not understand it correctly and properly until you "come to grips" with the fact that the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation are two separate things...
And, you will not understand it correctly and properly until you "come to grips" with the fact that the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation are two separate things...
you make my piont over and over.
We could call it; "trouble trouble and lots of trouble with that wrath ingredient".....just to agree and get on the same page but what is the point?
I say GT,you call it something else.
That "gotcha" style is nothing but a "muddying ingredient" in the way of truth.
G
Guys:
I am not trying to insult your intelligence. I am only trying to get you to realize that you have been "mis-led" in your interpretation of scripture by a "very elaborate and much convoluted" doctrine. I know you don't believe me. That is okay, for now; however, I am "hoping and praying" that you will one day fully consider that you can actually be deceived by Satan -- and then realize that you have been deceived by Satan ( he is very sly! ) - when you decide to study the scriptures, having made yourself to "forget" everything you [ think you ] know about the scriptures regarding the End Times Scenario - and, looking at the scriptures with the "fresh eyes" that you are asking me to look at the scriptures with.
Remember what I said -- I have "been there and done that" -- I can see both sides of this thing. I know what you believe, and why you believe it. I was there --- I was raised with the whole "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view of biblical prophecy. And then I did what I am suggesting that you do. And, I found it to be in severe error!
I see the truth - and the error - in what you believe.
And, I am telling you:
"You are mis-interpreting the scriptures."
I am not trying to insult your intelligence. I am only trying to get you to realize that you have been "mis-led" in your interpretation of scripture by a "very elaborate and much convoluted" doctrine. I know you don't believe me. That is okay, for now; however, I am "hoping and praying" that you will one day fully consider that you can actually be deceived by Satan -- and then realize that you have been deceived by Satan ( he is very sly! ) - when you decide to study the scriptures, having made yourself to "forget" everything you [ think you ] know about the scriptures regarding the End Times Scenario - and, looking at the scriptures with the "fresh eyes" that you are asking me to look at the scriptures with.
Remember what I said -- I have "been there and done that" -- I can see both sides of this thing. I know what you believe, and why you believe it. I was there --- I was raised with the whole "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view of biblical prophecy. And then I did what I am suggesting that you do. And, I found it to be in severe error!
I see the truth - and the error - in what you believe.
And, I am telling you:
"You are mis-interpreting the scriptures."
G
"Please don't take this the wrong way..."
Could I possibly be wrong? Of course! I have never taken the position that I cannot possibly be wrong. However, it is also true that I have studied these things [ on-and-off ] over the past 30 years...
As Christians, do we not boldly proclaim to the unsaved ( who do not yet understand ) the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ -- so that they may overcome the obstacles that Satan has thrown in their path, and come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Well -- I speak boldly to other Christians ( who do not yet understand ) regarding the truth about the End Times Scenario -- not to insult or offend - rather, so that they may overcome the obstacles that Satan has thrown in their path, and come to a correct knowledge about the End Times Scenario.
I consider it an "official" calling of God.
You have every right to disagree, if you wish. ( And, I will not be offended. )
Will I consider another person's point-of-view? Of course! However, I have no respect for any point-of-view that deliberately ignores that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures.
If what the scriptures actually say in the 'grammar of the language' cannot be trusted to be true -- then, the imaginative conclusions of men about the "esoteric meaning of parables and such" certainly cannot be trusted...
"Just sayin'..."
Could I possibly be wrong? Of course! I have never taken the position that I cannot possibly be wrong. However, it is also true that I have studied these things [ on-and-off ] over the past 30 years...
As Christians, do we not boldly proclaim to the unsaved ( who do not yet understand ) the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ -- so that they may overcome the obstacles that Satan has thrown in their path, and come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Well -- I speak boldly to other Christians ( who do not yet understand ) regarding the truth about the End Times Scenario -- not to insult or offend - rather, so that they may overcome the obstacles that Satan has thrown in their path, and come to a correct knowledge about the End Times Scenario.
I consider it an "official" calling of God.
You have every right to disagree, if you wish. ( And, I will not be offended.
)Will I consider another person's point-of-view? Of course! However, I have no respect for any point-of-view that deliberately ignores that which is simple - and "blatently obvious" - in the scriptures.
If what the scriptures actually say in the 'grammar of the language' cannot be trusted to be true -- then, the imaginative conclusions of men about the "esoteric meaning of parables and such" certainly cannot be trusted...
"Just sayin'..."
G
You have to look at the prophecy of the End Times Scenario from God's perspective, not that of a man. When you do, you will understand such things as:
~ the 'rapture' IS ( literally ) the marriage
~ what is described in Revelation 19:17-21 IS ( literally ) the marriage supper
Yes - the Jewish traditions, parables, etc. are important and significant in describing some of the details of God's [ over-all ] Plan. However...
God does things in His own way and in His own time.
The way the End Times Scenario "plays out" is not according to the [ literal ] way that Jewish weddings, for example, are / were done. These are all 'symbolic' in nature, only pointing to the "real thing" - not describing it in [ literal ] detail.
In other words, there is not going to be "a [ very ] long table in heaven, complete with a place setting for everyone" - at which "the Church" will sit while the "marriage supper" is being "conducted" - much as you might imagine a marriage supper to be conducted here on earth according to the "this life" traditions and patterns.
The way God is doing things in the End Times Scenario follows the pattern; rather than being done exaclty like the pattern.
~ the 'rapture' IS ( literally ) the marriage
~ what is described in Revelation 19:17-21 IS ( literally ) the marriage supper
Yes - the Jewish traditions, parables, etc. are important and significant in describing some of the details of God's [ over-all ] Plan. However...
God does things in His own way and in His own time.
The way the End Times Scenario "plays out" is not according to the [ literal ] way that Jewish weddings, for example, are / were done. These are all 'symbolic' in nature, only pointing to the "real thing" - not describing it in [ literal ] detail.
In other words, there is not going to be "a [ very ] long table in heaven, complete with a place setting for everyone" - at which "the Church" will sit while the "marriage supper" is being "conducted" - much as you might imagine a marriage supper to be conducted here on earth according to the "this life" traditions and patterns.
The way God is doing things in the End Times Scenario follows the pattern; rather than being done exaclty like the pattern.
P
When exactly did the mark of the beast happen?
When did the flyinging scorpions,fireballs from heaven, and every human on the planet die from not taking the mark?
When did this happen;5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
When did the 200 million army/horsemen happen?13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
Heads like lions and tails were serpents that bite.
When did history record this?
When did the AC kill every human w/o the mark,leaving zero righteous on planet earth?
When did the flyinging scorpions,fireballs from heaven, and every human on the planet die from not taking the mark?
When did this happen;5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
When did the 200 million army/horsemen happen?13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
Heads like lions and tails were serpents that bite.
When did history record this?
When did the AC kill every human w/o the mark,leaving zero righteous on planet earth?
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P
You have to look at the prophecy of the End Times Scenario from God's perspective, not that of a man. When you do, you will understand such things as:
~ the 'rapture' IS ( literally ) the marriage
~ what is described in Revelation 19:17-21 IS ( literally ) the marriage supper
Yes - the Jewish traditions, parables, etc. are important and significant in describing some of the details of God's [ over-all ] Plan. However...
God does things in His own way and in His own time.
The way the End Times Scenario "plays out" is not according to the [ literal ] way that Jewish weddings, for example, are / were done. These are all 'symbolic' in nature, only pointing to the "real thing" - not describing it in [ literal ] detail.
In other words, there is not going to be "a [ very ] long table in heaven, complete with a place setting for everyone" - at which "the Church" will sit while the "marriage supper" is being "conducted" - much as you might imagine a marriage supper to be conducted here on earth according to the "this life" traditions and patterns.
The way God is doing things in the End Times Scenario follows the pattern; rather than being done exaclty like the pattern.
~ the 'rapture' IS ( literally ) the marriage
~ what is described in Revelation 19:17-21 IS ( literally ) the marriage supper
Yes - the Jewish traditions, parables, etc. are important and significant in describing some of the details of God's [ over-all ] Plan. However...
God does things in His own way and in His own time.
The way the End Times Scenario "plays out" is not according to the [ literal ] way that Jewish weddings, for example, are / were done. These are all 'symbolic' in nature, only pointing to the "real thing" - not describing it in [ literal ] detail.
In other words, there is not going to be "a [ very ] long table in heaven, complete with a place setting for everyone" - at which "the Church" will sit while the "marriage supper" is being "conducted" - much as you might imagine a marriage supper to be conducted here on earth according to the "this life" traditions and patterns.
The way God is doing things in the End Times Scenario follows the pattern; rather than being done exaclty like the pattern.
Now you are starting to dig.
The closest answer I can find to Elwin's OP of: In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.
is in Matthew 24:15-31 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wondersto deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angelswith a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
and is referring to Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
and Daniel 11:31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
Events in the Middle East are following Daniel 11, when you consider the North to be Iran and Russia and the South to be the Sunnis.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.
is in Matthew 24:15-31 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wondersto deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angelswith a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
and is referring to Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
and Daniel 11:31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
Events in the Middle East are following Daniel 11, when you consider the North to be Iran and Russia and the South to be the Sunnis.
K
You have to look at the prophecy of the End Times Scenario from God's perspective, not that of a man. When you do, you will understand such things as:
~ the 'rapture' IS ( literally ) the marriage
~ what is described in Revelation 19:17-21 IS ( literally ) the marriage supper
Yes - the Jewish traditions, parables, etc. are important and significant in describing some of the details of God's [ over-all ] Plan. However...
God does things in His own way and in His own time.
The way the End Times Scenario "plays out" is not according to the [ literal ] way that Jewish weddings, for example, are / were done. These are all 'symbolic' in nature, only pointing to the "real thing" - not describing it in [ literal ] detail.
In other words, there is not going to be "a [ very ] long table in heaven, complete with a place setting for everyone" - at which "the Church" will sit while the "marriage supper" is being "conducted" - much as you might imagine a marriage supper to be conducted here on earth according to the "this life" traditions and patterns.
The way God is doing things in the End Times Scenario follows the pattern; rather than being done exaclty like the pattern.
~ the 'rapture' IS ( literally ) the marriage
~ what is described in Revelation 19:17-21 IS ( literally ) the marriage supper
Yes - the Jewish traditions, parables, etc. are important and significant in describing some of the details of God's [ over-all ] Plan. However...
God does things in His own way and in His own time.
The way the End Times Scenario "plays out" is not according to the [ literal ] way that Jewish weddings, for example, are / were done. These are all 'symbolic' in nature, only pointing to the "real thing" - not describing it in [ literal ] detail.
In other words, there is not going to be "a [ very ] long table in heaven, complete with a place setting for everyone" - at which "the Church" will sit while the "marriage supper" is being "conducted" - much as you might imagine a marriage supper to be conducted here on earth according to the "this life" traditions and patterns.
The way God is doing things in the End Times Scenario follows the pattern; rather than being done exaclty like the pattern.
Originally Posted by valiant
The wrath of God was revealed from Heaven against mankind from the time of Paul (Rom 1.18). So what has changed?
The seals, trumpets and bowls began to operate in 1st century AD as Jesus Himself foretold (Matt 24.5 ff)
The seals, trumpets and bowls began to operate in 1st century AD as Jesus Himself foretold (Matt 24.5 ff)
The mark of the beast, like the seal of the Spirit, is invisible. It first occurred in 1st century AD in the form of emperor worship. The mark on the head was bowing to the emperor. The mark on the hand was offering sacrifices to him. The different trade guilds required this in order to allow trading and put various marks on people. It often involved sacrificial certificates without which trading was impossible. The mark of the beast is essentially unbelief (the head) and evil deeds (the hand). In this form it has continued on throughout the centuries.
The flying scorpions are invisible and represent evil spirits. There have often been fireballs from Heaven. Revelation never mentions 'every living being on the planet'. It speaks of John's world. There have been many times in history when the intention has been to wipe out Christians.
This is yet future just prior to the rapture. Unlike you we do not allocate all Revelation to one particular short period. We take it seriously as God's revelation of history as the opening of the seals shows it to be.
They were/will be the consequence of the release of Satan, the king of the angels, from the Abyss (9.11), depending on whether this has yet happened.
This is the 'short time' allocated to Satan (20.3).
These are probably the evil spirits released from the Abyss in 9.1-11. Or some similar event.
They have had, or will have, devastating consequences for John's world.
Typical of man's continual response to tribulation and a plea for readers to consider their position.
History will probably never have seen it or never will see it. It is a description of invisible demons.
Never, and he never will. Nothing in Revelation affects the whole of planet earth except the second coming itself. It is written about John's world.
Lol its time you grew up and recognised symbolism for what it is.
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