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Good day Marc,
I personally believe according to scripture that first, the announcement at the sixth seal that "the great day of their wrath has come" includes what will have previously taken place with the events of the first four seals, as well as what is yet to follow after the sixth seal. I don't believe that God's wrath is restricted only to what takes place after the sixth seal. And secondly, Jesus, as the Lamb, is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowls and therefore, since he is the One who is initiating them, then the first four seals are also included as being the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowls judgments combined make up the entire wrath of God and therefore, I believe the resurrection and catching away must take place prior to the first seal being opened.
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
Regarding the above, these are identified as those saints who come out of the great tribulation period, who are also mentioned in Rev.20:4. If you will notice, this group is never referred to as the Ekklesia/Church but always as Hagios/Saints. In fact, we never see the word church after chapter 4 nor anywhere else in the narrative. These great tribulation saints are not the Church, but a different group that will be on earth during the time of God's wrath, who will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will resist the beast, his image and his mark, many at the expense of being beheaded. Again, if we try to make this group the raptured church, it would mean that they would have been on earth during the last 3 1/2 years, for it is at the middle of the seven years when the beast sets himself up in the temple proclaiming to be God, which by that time would be well into God's wrath.
The other reason that these great tribulation saints cannot be the Church, is because for one, they come out of the great tribulation which is surely referring to the wrath of God. And two, scripture demonstrates that these saints will have indeed been exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (God's wrath) as can be seen below:
"Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’[SUP] [/SUP]nor any scorching heat."
Regarding the above, "never again will they hunger" would be in reference to the third seal famine and "never again will they thirst" would speak about the third trumpet where that object falls on a third of the rivers and fresh waters turning them bitter with many people dying from drinking it. It would also be in reference to when God turns the oceans and fresh water into literal blood at the second and third bowl judgments.
The reference to "the sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat" would be in reference to their exposure to the fourth bowl judgment, when the angel pours his bowl out on the sun and the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with great heat, searing them.
I whole heartily agree with you here. That fact that we are already seeing people being implanted with the RFID chips in Sweden and elsewhere and the fact that Denmark and her sisters to follow, are going completely cashless in 2016, is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word. This technology will continue to evolve until that antichrist is revealed. As for system that the mark will run on, it is already here and people use it everyday with the swiping of their cards to electronically credit and debit (buy and sell) their bank accounts. The only thing that will need to change is going from card to mark to preform these transactions.
Being that a fourth of the earth's population is killed as a result of the fourth seal, which would equal 1.7 billion and the fact that these events must take place in the last generation leading up to Christ's return, and since we have not seen such a great number of fatalities, this couldn't have possibly have yet taken place, but is still future.
To recap, since Jesus is the One who is opening the seals with a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth being killed as a result, then the seals also belong to the wrath of God. The company of white robed saints which no man can count, are identified as being the great tribulation saints and are never referred to as the Church. The fact that they are shown to be exposed to the entire wrath of God would also make them ineligible as being the raptured church, since the church is not appointed to suffer wrath.
I personally believe according to scripture that first, the announcement at the sixth seal that "the great day of their wrath has come" includes what will have previously taken place with the events of the first four seals, as well as what is yet to follow after the sixth seal. I don't believe that God's wrath is restricted only to what takes place after the sixth seal. And secondly, Jesus, as the Lamb, is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowls and therefore, since he is the One who is initiating them, then the first four seals are also included as being the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowls judgments combined make up the entire wrath of God and therefore, I believe the resurrection and catching away must take place prior to the first seal being opened.
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
Regarding the above, these are identified as those saints who come out of the great tribulation period, who are also mentioned in Rev.20:4. If you will notice, this group is never referred to as the Ekklesia/Church but always as Hagios/Saints. In fact, we never see the word church after chapter 4 nor anywhere else in the narrative. These great tribulation saints are not the Church, but a different group that will be on earth during the time of God's wrath, who will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will resist the beast, his image and his mark, many at the expense of being beheaded. Again, if we try to make this group the raptured church, it would mean that they would have been on earth during the last 3 1/2 years, for it is at the middle of the seven years when the beast sets himself up in the temple proclaiming to be God, which by that time would be well into God's wrath.
The other reason that these great tribulation saints cannot be the Church, is because for one, they come out of the great tribulation which is surely referring to the wrath of God. And two, scripture demonstrates that these saints will have indeed been exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (God's wrath) as can be seen below:
"Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’[SUP] [/SUP]nor any scorching heat."
Regarding the above, "never again will they hunger" would be in reference to the third seal famine and "never again will they thirst" would speak about the third trumpet where that object falls on a third of the rivers and fresh waters turning them bitter with many people dying from drinking it. It would also be in reference to when God turns the oceans and fresh water into literal blood at the second and third bowl judgments.
The reference to "the sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat" would be in reference to their exposure to the fourth bowl judgment, when the angel pours his bowl out on the sun and the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with great heat, searing them.
I whole heartily agree with you here. That fact that we are already seeing people being implanted with the RFID chips in Sweden and elsewhere and the fact that Denmark and her sisters to follow, are going completely cashless in 2016, is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word. This technology will continue to evolve until that antichrist is revealed. As for system that the mark will run on, it is already here and people use it everyday with the swiping of their cards to electronically credit and debit (buy and sell) their bank accounts. The only thing that will need to change is going from card to mark to preform these transactions.
Being that a fourth of the earth's population is killed as a result of the fourth seal, which would equal 1.7 billion and the fact that these events must take place in the last generation leading up to Christ's return, and since we have not seen such a great number of fatalities, this couldn't have possibly have yet taken place, but is still future.
To recap, since Jesus is the One who is opening the seals with a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth being killed as a result, then the seals also belong to the wrath of God. The company of white robed saints which no man can count, are identified as being the great tribulation saints and are never referred to as the Church. The fact that they are shown to be exposed to the entire wrath of God would also make them ineligible as being the raptured church, since the church is not appointed to suffer wrath.
The timing of the rapture is something no one has ever been able to pinpoint and I don't mean the day and hour I mean the timing of it. I used to be a hard core pre rapture believer I believed he would come for us any day at any point in and I admit the hope and joy of this was enough to help me through the hard times but tbh a mid trib rapture isn't all that unbelievable It may even be the same as the pre wrath rapture belief but the post trib rapture belief is simply unbelievable. We are not appointed to wrath and thus the rapture happening after all the mayhem that will unfold in the tribulation would mean we would have had to have gone through God's wrath.
But the thing is whenever the rapture happens I think some ppl will be surprised when they are not taken, I myself do not consider myself worthy to go in it and I can only pray that I would be counted worthy in his eyes
But the thing is whenever the rapture happens I think some ppl will be surprised when they are not taken, I myself do not consider myself worthy to go in it and I can only pray that I would be counted worthy in his eyes
Good day Blain,
The promise of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to him is to every believer and is what we are supposed to be watching and hoping for. The only thing that could keep a believer from not being gathered when he comes, would be those who have gone back into the world and are living according to the sinful nature and would therefore not be anticipating and watching for his coming, for their eyes would be on the things of this world, as the Lord warns in the following scripture:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
The promise of being kept out of that time, which is the time of God's wrath, is also found in the church of Philadelphia:
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."
The "hour of trial" is synonymous with "the day of the Lord." Therefore, the way in which to be worthy of being caught up, is to be in a state of faith when he appears. For it is those who will not be in a state of faith that will be left behind and exposed to the wrath of God and everything that will be coming upon the world.
The promise of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to him is to every believer and is what we are supposed to be watching and hoping for. The only thing that could keep a believer from not being gathered when he comes, would be those who have gone back into the world and are living according to the sinful nature and would therefore not be anticipating and watching for his coming, for their eyes would be on the things of this world, as the Lord warns in the following scripture:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
The promise of being kept out of that time, which is the time of God's wrath, is also found in the church of Philadelphia:
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."
The "hour of trial" is synonymous with "the day of the Lord." Therefore, the way in which to be worthy of being caught up, is to be in a state of faith when he appears. For it is those who will not be in a state of faith that will be left behind and exposed to the wrath of God and everything that will be coming upon the world.
When you say state of faith what do you mean? didn't the bible say that you can have faith to command the mountain to fall into the sea but without love it is useless? I don't understand what a state of faith means concerning this, does it mean simply having great faith or rather the state of the believers heart?
The same faith you had when you first believed in Christ and continue to grow in. Those who are having faith are those who are continuing to be transformed into his image, continuing in prayer, remaining in his word and are waiting for and anticipating his appearing according to his promise. The person of faith is always meditating on God and his word and is examining himself and applying God's word to his life, always having a repentant heart, putting God's word into practice, striving to love all people as himself. When the Lord appears there will be believers at different levels of faith, some new, some old, some in between. For scripture says regarding the fruit of the Spirit, some will bring forth some 30, some 60 and some a hundred percent. Regardless of what stage a believer is in, Just as long as they are having faith when he appears, then they will be changed and caught up according to his promise where he will take the whole group back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18). Those who will not go when the Bridegroom appears, will be likened to those five bridesmaids who had no extra oil with them, the oil representing watchful, readiness.
P
The "oil" is something external that had to be secured, which I would suggest, in a context that includes all relevant New Testament passages, is a reference to the Holy Spirit.
The parable applies to Kingdom (millennial) entrance, rather than having a Rapture context. The one demand for entrance is that one is born again, not that they are born again and meeting a specific quota of good works.
God bless.
The parable applies to Kingdom (millennial) entrance, rather than having a Rapture context. The one demand for entrance is that one is born again, not that they are born again and meeting a specific quota of good works.
God bless.
P
That iS WHY Jesus said "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape....."
I pray that regularly.
If you don't pray that,at least position yourself.
The rapture is the school bus. The bustop is the POSITION,and the school is heaven.
Some will miss the bus. No brainer as to why. Jesus actually told us why.
I pray that regularly.
If you don't pray that,at least position yourself.
The rapture is the school bus. The bustop is the POSITION,and the school is heaven.
Some will miss the bus. No brainer as to why. Jesus actually told us why.
P
The conclusion that the Rapture takes place prior to the Tribulation comes from examining the events of the Tribulation itself.
Nowhere in the events do we see a Rapture, apart from that of the Two Witnesses. And there is no Rapture shown at the end of the Tribulation, though we see the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.
God bless.
Nowhere in the events do we see a Rapture, apart from that of the Two Witnesses. And there is no Rapture shown at the end of the Tribulation, though we see the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.
God bless.
GODS wrath and tribulation not same things.Behind presecution And presecution is spirits Ephesians 6:12
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
King James Version (KJV) B. Also Paul said: Acts 14:22
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
2 Timothy 3:12
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”
King James Version (KJV)
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
King James Version (KJV) B. Also Paul said: Acts 14:22
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
2 Timothy 3:12
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”
King James Version (KJV)
P
The Tribulation is God's wrath, my friend:
Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
God bless.
P
It is clearly a resurrection:
[h=1]Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version (KJV)[/h]
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
We see Resurrection two ways, first it is explicitly stated, and secondly those that live are contrasted with the "rest of the dead."
No conjecture necessary, just an acknowledgment of what is written.
And there is no indication of a Rapture in the first Resurrection, though we could see this as a possibility, as they will reign with Christ one thousand years, and thus will ever be with the Lord.
But it cannot be The Rapture of the Church because in this Resurrection only has dead believers raised again to life, whereas the Rapture of the Church involves the glorification of both living and dead Saints.
God bless.
[h=1]Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version (KJV)[/h]
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
We see Resurrection two ways, first it is explicitly stated, and secondly those that live are contrasted with the "rest of the dead."
No conjecture necessary, just an acknowledgment of what is written.
And there is no indication of a Rapture in the first Resurrection, though we could see this as a possibility, as they will reign with Christ one thousand years, and thus will ever be with the Lord.
But it cannot be The Rapture of the Church because in this Resurrection only has dead believers raised again to life, whereas the Rapture of the Church involves the glorification of both living and dead Saints.
God bless.
The tribulation is for Israel not for the church. Church has persecution and tribulations but the church is never subject to the wrath of God.
Tribulation period is Gods wrath upon a sinful world like in the times of Noah.
Those who are living when Christ returns in the clouds for His church will be caught up together with Him. Those left behind will endure the wrath of God on the earth. But the tribulation is Gods judgment upon Israel for their apostasy in the end time. Israel will see Christ when He returns to set foot in Jerusalem. Then they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and weep.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Tribulation period is Gods wrath upon a sinful world like in the times of Noah.
Those who are living when Christ returns in the clouds for His church will be caught up together with Him. Those left behind will endure the wrath of God on the earth. But the tribulation is Gods judgment upon Israel for their apostasy in the end time. Israel will see Christ when He returns to set foot in Jerusalem. Then they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and weep.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
P
Nothing there to prove that theory. Nothing.
You closed off what that is referring to.
It CLEARLY points to the "innumerable number"no man can count seen early on In HEAVEN,BY JOHN THAT WERE BEHEADED BY AC. I have NEVER EVER SEEN ONE PERSON WITH YOU GUYS THEORY actually acknowledge this blatantly obvious fact.
Your entire deal rests on this cunning disguise of a manufactured resurrection of those we can see as already in heaven HAVING BEEN RESURRECTED WITH WASHED ROBES EARLY ON IN THE GT.
YOU POSTRIBS DISINGENUOUSLY OMIT THAT CONTEXT.
You closed off what that is referring to.
It CLEARLY points to the "innumerable number"no man can count seen early on In HEAVEN,BY JOHN THAT WERE BEHEADED BY AC. I have NEVER EVER SEEN ONE PERSON WITH YOU GUYS THEORY actually acknowledge this blatantly obvious fact.
Your entire deal rests on this cunning disguise of a manufactured resurrection of those we can see as already in heaven HAVING BEEN RESURRECTED WITH WASHED ROBES EARLY ON IN THE GT.
YOU POSTRIBS DISINGENUOUSLY OMIT THAT CONTEXT.