the rapture

[DP]

Men Scofield made his bible with commentaries translation in America about 1830 and it start be weary popular in Amerika rapture before tribulation doctrine

You are very correct.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory actually goes back to a representative of the Irvingite Church in Great Britain in the 1800's. That's where John Darby got the doctrine from.

Cyrus Scofield was a charlatan, and a convicted embezzler. He was at one time a member of the elite 'club of New York' of bankers and lawyers. His Scofield Reference Bible has duped generations of American Christian brethren.

 

[popeye]

You are very correct.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory actually goes back to a representative of the Irvingite Church in Great Britain in the 1800's. That's where John Darby got the doctrine from.

Cyrus Scofield was a charlatan, and a convicted embezzler. He was at one time a member of the elite 'club of New York' of bankers and lawyers. His Scofield Reference Bible has duped generations of American Christian brethren.

What about mat 25,1 thes 4 ,and Jesus prejudgment examples of Noah and lot.

Are those writings old enough or is there a pertinent disclaimer canceling Christ and his own words?

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are very correct.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory actually goes back to a representative of the Irvingite Church in Great Britain in the 1800's. That's where John Darby got the doctrine from.

Cyrus Scofield was a charlatan, and a convicted embezzler. He was at one time a member of the elite 'club of New York' of bankers and lawyers. His Scofield Reference Bible has duped generations of American Christian brethren.

People always attempt to assert that the pre-trib interpretation came about by ascribing it to some group or time period, as though it was some fairly new interpretation. The fact is, the resurrection and catching away is not derived from the Irvingite or any other group, but from logical, Biblical, Exegesis. Placing the resurrection and catching away of the Church as taking place at the mid or post seven year period always poses one big problem, that being that mid-trib puts the church right in the heart of God's wrath and the other puts the church through the entire wrath of God. The church cannot be on earth during the time of God's wrath, period! God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since this time of wrath that is coming is unprecedented in that the entire earth is going to be exposed to it, then the church must be removed prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for we are not appointed to suffer wrath.

 

[pottersclay]

A lot of us never seem to get this right so I asked the Lord for the chance to explain it on the way up before his wrath begins.....So I'll wait till then.

 

[DP]

What about mat 25,1 thes 4 ,and Jesus prejudgment examples of Noah and lot.

Are those writings old enough or is there a pertinent disclaimer canceling Christ and his own words?

The only Scripture you mention there that is speaking of the idea of the harpazo is 1 Thess.4. And even it does not give the 'order' or sequence of its occurrence. The Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture does give the exact order, so what about those?

 

[DP]

People always attempt to assert that the pre-trib interpretation came about by ascribing it to some group or time period, as though it was some fairly new interpretation. The fact is, the resurrection and catching away is not derived from the Irvingite or any other group, but from logical, Biblical, Exegesis. Placing the resurrection and catching away of the Church as taking place at the mid or post seven year period always poses one big problem, that being that mid-trib puts the church right in the heart of God's wrath and the other puts the church through the entire wrath of God. The church cannot be on earth during the time of God's wrath, period! God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since this time of wrath that is coming is unprecedented in that the entire earth is going to be exposed to it, then the church must be removed prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for we are not appointed to suffer wrath.

Honest people ascribe that doctrine to a certain time period in history because it never was a doctrine of any Christian Church for over 1800 years, not until the 1830's in Great Britain.

Dishonest people try to create an older history for the doctrine when no Christian Church prior to the 1800's held the pre-trib rapture doctrine.


Furthermore, the doctrine goes directly against the order of events that our Lord Jesus Himself gave about His coming and gathering of His Church (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 compared with 1 Thess.4).

 

[P1LGR1M]

The 5 foolish are believers.
They have light
they had limited oil
They are virgins (undefiled,pure)
They were waiting for Jesus

Correction, they are Jews waiting for the Messiah that to date they reject as having already come.

The parable is premillennial in nature and the Rapture is yet a mystery.

They were believers. Born again believers.

Just not possible...the Lord states He does not know them.

This is 180 out of whack.

What is out of whack is your loss of salvation doctrine which is clearly works-based.

They canceled themselves. They disqualified themselves. They got the covenant part right and then were not intimate.

If they were born again believers they would need known of the Lord.

These are not.

We cannot make the salvation we did not effect vood through neglect...


[h=1]1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Oil is a type of the HS.

Oil can be seen to be figurative. Unbelievers can partake of the Holy Spirit.

Every person will partake of the Holy Spirit through the ministry of the Comforter.

But not every person will yield to Him, and Scripture indicates most...will resist Him.

They had a mental relationship with Jesus. They stopped at salvation. Never went higher.

They had no relationship. They were not known of the Lord.


[h=1]Matthew 7:22-24

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

It is like owning a dog but never touching it. Never loving it. That is the 5 foolish

Salvation can be said to have a connotation of ownership, but it is not we who are the Master.

The five foolish Virgins are unbelievers refused entrance to the Kingdom of God, not believers left behind in the Rapture. Paul's teaching makes it clear that the Lord personally collects both living and dead believers in the Rapture.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Read it again. They are in heaven,either ruptured or raised from the dead during the gt.

They are clearly on earth:



[h=1]Revelation 7

King James Version (KJV)[/h]1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,


3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


This is why the command not to hurt the earth until they are sealed is given.

Mat 25 testifies you are wrong. There are about 1/2 left behind.

No believers are left behind. Only unbelievers:


Luke 17

King James Version


31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


32 Remember Lot's wife.


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.


35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


This passage also speaks of the Second Coming. Those taken are those taken in judgment.

No believer is forsaken by Christ.

You need to read mat 25 again. you will either go with what is said by Jesus or get real creative with a no brainer parable.

Matthew 25 clearly describes the Second Coming. Not the Rapture.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I am not the one depicting heathen/unsaved as chaste and pure.

You are if you depict those not known of Christ as believers.

As I said,you will either take Jesus words as he spoke or get real creative.

My doctrine fits His teaching, yours does not.

You are saying one can be saved yet unknown to Christ.

Now,show me this dynamic of the unsaved as chaste pure and undefiled (virgins)

Nothing in this text that says they are pure and undefiled.

You are merging teachings which is why your conclusions are in error.

remember ,you are the one with the "correct",infallable position as you describe yourself.

Could you quote me saying I am infallible?

Just seems odd you would disguise that no brainer parable.

I am not the adding to the text or merging texts to create my position. The foolish Virgins are fools, which is a consistent term for unbelievers. They take no oil which suggests resistance to the Holy Ghost. They are not known of Christ. They are shut out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I didn't know it was possible at this late hour to give an overview EXCLUDING THE marriage,and the supper but you somehow omitted it.

What do you expect...I'm on a tablet, lol.

The timeline is sufficient for the point in view. The Marriage Supper was not the focal point, Resurrection was.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

How is it that you don't understand those Rev.6:15-17 verses occur on the day of Christ's return?

Because that is something that cannot be known.

This is at the beginning of the Tribulation. At this point only five judgments have been unleashed. Those who try to make the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all the same judgments run into some obvious problems. They fail to maintain thee fairly easy to follow timeline given in Revelation.

God's cup of wrath upon the wicked occurs on the final day of this world, and not before. The time of "great tribulation" is the devil's time of wrath upon the saints.

The Tribulation is God's wrath poured out, not Satan's. It is the Seventieth Week of Daniel, and while Satan does seek to persecute those who are saved, you give him too much credit and erroneously depict him ads being in control.

God is the Great Architect of events.

So your doctrine has those things backwards.

On the contrary, I am not ascribing power to a mere created being with a chip on his shoulder.

All of the Tribulation is under God's control.

That is recognized by those on earth...


[h=1]Revelation 6:15-17

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It's odd unbelievers understand Who is effecting the wrath but believers do not.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You are very correct.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory actually goes back to a representative of the Irvingite Church in Great Britain in the 1800's. That's where John Darby got the doctrine from.

Cyrus Scofield was a charlatan, and a convicted embezzler. He was at one time a member of the elite 'club of New York' of bankers and lawyers. His Scofield Reference Bible has duped generations of American Christian brethren.

This is a typical argument. It is weak and in error though.

Do we see the Apostles teaching a direct Trinitarian doctrine? Are you willing to say that the Trinity is a theory?

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is simply the only reasonable view to take. It is the only position that does not have to reconcile problems all other positions create.

My doctrine has never relied on Darby, but Scripture only, and that the premillennial view was the position of the Apostles is taken directly from their First Century teachings recorded in Scripture itself, which the historical views of both Protestant and Catholic alike come into serious conflict with.

You can slander post Inspiration sources and teachings, but you will never deny the Pre-Tribulation Rapture if you keep the discussion Scriptural.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The only Scripture you mention there that is speaking of the idea of the harpazo is 1 Thess.4. And even it does not give the 'order' or sequence of its occurrence. The Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture does give the exact order, so what about those?

These are Second Coming teachings, and they must be kept in their proper context. They do not nullify what is taught concerning the Rapture, both explicit and implicit teachings.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Honest people ascribe that doctrine to a certain time period in history because it never was a doctrine of any Christian Church for over 1800 years, not until the 1830's in Great Britain.

The premillennial view was the view of the early Church, and taught by Paul. And just like Trinitarian understanding is something that was more clearly taught at a later date by the Church, even so understanding of the timeline of events is more a focused point of doctrine recognized by later Theologians.

What is dishonest is to deny that we can establish Pre-Tribulation understanding directly from the First Century teachings of the Apostles. So if you want to debate about Scofield and Darby, you'll have to find someone interested in the teachings of men. But if you want to debate Scripture, then be glad to discuss it with you.

And sorry for the bold, on a tablet and it picked up the code of your own emphasis and its just easier to leave it in place.

Dishonest people try to create an older history for the doctrine when no Christian Church prior to the 1800's held the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

It's just a fact that a premillennial view can be seen in Scripture as well as in early teachings of the Church.

The Pre-Trib view may have been more pronounced in that timeframe but there is nothing unusual in that. Your argument could be also used in regards to the teachings that have arisen out of the Reformation, where the A-millenniel view became popular. This error actually predates the Reformation bit that is when it gained a major foothold.

Furthermore, the doctrine goes directly against the order of events that our Lord Jesus Himself gave about His coming and gathering of His Church (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 compared with 1 Thess.4).

Not at all. When we properly place the teachings in their proper context we find no conflict between Christ's teachings, which are primarily in reference to the Second Coming, and the teachings of Paul who is the one who the Spirit revealed the Mystery of the Rapture.

That is where most go awry in regards to the Rapture, tey do not taker into consideration that Christ taught concerning the Kingdom Israel awaited, not the Rapture. There are some of His teachings which apply to the Rapture, but these are veiled references not meant to declare the Mystery Paul would teach about.


God bless.

 

[popeye]

The only Scripture you mention there that is speaking of the idea of the harpazo is 1 Thess.4. And even it does not give the 'order' or sequence of its occurrence. The Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture does give the exact order, so what about those?

Groom,Jesus,bride ,Marriage,waitlmg on groom to fetch bride,groom taking bride to heaven,

Uh,who would have thought that had anything to do with 1thes4 where the
BRIDE IS CAUGHT UP TO HEAVEN VIA THE GROOM.

Mat 25,and the bride/groom dimension is a game changer

I chuckle every time you guys weigh in with such creative verse disguises.

 

[popeye]

I wonder if when postribs invoke the" history is the basis" card for their theories,if they realize those dead men they invoke as infallible were a millinialists or post millinialists???

Wouldn't that make the postribs heretics for incorrectly agreeing with the likes of the dreaded Darby

 

[tanach]

So I want to learn a little bit more about the Rapture from what I read I'm starting to see a lot of signs in the world I like what I message was church the other day it was are you living a Christian life outside of church are you going with the Rapture are you staying even though you go to church doesn't mean you're always living the word.plese help by answering whats the mark of the beast really mean.and our we not gonna be able to eat and stuff

There are a large number of threads on site about the rapture and other related topics. I suggest you check out the replies on them. A list should be provided at the bottom of this page.

 

[tanach]

What about mat 25,1 thes 4 ,and Jesus prejudgment examples of Noah and lot.

Are those writings old enough or is there a pertinent disclaimer canceling Christ and his own words?

An interesting aspect in the Noah story is that it was the wicked that were taken in the flood. Noah and his family were left behind in the Ark.

Jesus told the Disciples that those taken would be with Vultures, ' Where the corpse is the Vultures will gather together'

 

[DP]

Because that is something that cannot be known.

This is at the beginning of the Tribulation. At this point only five judgments have been unleashed. Those who try to make the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all the same judgments run into some obvious problems. They fail to maintain thee fairly easy to follow timeline given in Revelation.

No, those Rev.6 verses about the 6th SEAL are not at the beginning... of the great tribulation. They are events to occur at the END of the tribulation with Jesus' 2nd coming!

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

You simply deny the content of those Rev.6 Scriptures so you can keep your own FALSE tradition from men you follow.

The Tribulation is God's wrath poured out, not Satan's. It is the Seventieth Week of Daniel, and while Satan does seek to persecute those who are saved, you give him too much credit and erroneously depict him ads being in control.

You need a lot... more Bible study.

The great tribulation timing is Satan's time of wrath against God's people. The time of God's cup of wrath is at the END of the tribulation, just like that Scripture shows. It's so unbelievable that you would reject what timing those events are for, that I have to think you're just a troll here, and not really a Christian.

 

[tanach]

A lot of us never seem to get this right so I asked the Lord for the chance to explain it on the way up before his wrath begins.....So I'll wait till then.

If you are on the way up you wont need an explanation. On the other hand if you find yourself in the tribulation, having checked all the right boxes I reckon you and many pre trib advocates will be desperate for one.