Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

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VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#21
Oct 14, 2013
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#21
Babylonisfalling said:
Now you're making some sense. And yes, I believe that faith would initially empower the first works. That's sensible. And then works strengthens faith, then strengthened faith empowers greater works and you have a divine cycle in progress

Remember this from the other post?

faith works faith works faith works

By the way,
An interesting argument: Could the good works of a nonbeliever somehow lead him to God, even though those works aren't divinely inspired in the mind of the nonbeliever?
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NO!

Hebrews 4:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Romans 10:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Galatians 2:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
 
J

james57

Banned
#22
Oct 21, 2015
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#22
Babylonisfalling said:
We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.
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T
How long a time frame is there until works are required not to lose your salvation?

Jesus said
The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent john 6:29

Which kind of works do you think God wants
Works that are done with a view they will ensure your entry into heaven, or works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation?
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#23
#23
james57 said:
T
How long a time frame is there until works are required not to lose your salvation?

Jesus said
The work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent john 6:29

Which kind of works do you think God wants
Works that are done with a view they will ensure your entry into heaven, or works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation?
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One question at a time...to please humor my simple minded :confused:self.

I have no clue as to how long until works are required. My post was largely speculative. I am certain that would be a matter of God's judgement. I would guess it would be different for different people. A wheelchair bound homeless person in poverty would be given more grace in such a matter than Bill Gates. Different expectation for different people. Luke 12:48.

Losing one's salvation because works never occur? God knows past present and future and therefore knows if works will occur or not. If the faith was dead from the beginning because the person would never do works, then was he saved to begin with? This goes back to the other thread that you participated in. Is a person saved with a dead faith?

This all presumes that works are required and I think you don't believe that....right?
 
J

james57

Banned
#24
Oct 21, 2015
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#24
Babylonisfalling said:
One question at a time...to please humor my simple minded :confused:self.

I have no clue as to how long until works are required. My post was largely speculative. I am certain that would be a matter of God's judgement. I would guess it would be different for different people. A wheelchair bound homeless person in poverty would be given more grace in such a matter than Bill Gates. Different expectation for different people. Luke 12:48.

Losing one's salvation because works never occur? God knows past present and future and therefore knows if works will occur or not. If the faith was dead from the beginning because the person would never do works, then was he saved to begin with? This goes back to the other thread that you participated in. Is a person saved with a dead faith?

This all presumes that works are required and I think you don't believe that....right?
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This is what I think. God accepts works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. For he wants our motives for doing works to be driven solely by love for him and others
If you stress works are linked to attaining heaven then it is obvious that people will want to do good works with a view of assuring they attain heaven, they would not solely be driven by love for God

Which of those two kinds of works do you think God wants?
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#25
#25
james57 said:
This is what I think. God accepts works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. For he wants our motives for doing works to be driven solely by love for him and others
If you stress works are linked to attaining heaven then it is obvious that people will want to do good works with a view of assuring they attain heaven, they would not solely be driven by love for God<-----I agree

Which of those two kinds of works do you think God wants?
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Doing works solely for the sake of attaining heaven is not the best reason for doing works. I also believe however, that a person can start from that reason and mature into the preferred reason for doing works.

A child is taught to share, sometimes forced to share. But an adult can share for more appropriate reasons.

There are Christians who do works not because they want to but because as a Christian they are supposed to do so. They are still doing it because of their Christian faith though. Fast forward a year or two, they can be doing it because they've gotten over their carnal selfishness because they forced themselves to do what they didn't want to do and discovered the spiritual rewards of helping others in accordance with the will of God.
 
J

james57

Banned
#26
Oct 21, 2015
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#26
Babylonisfalling said:
Doing works solely for the sake of attaining heaven is not the best reason for doing works. I also believe however, that a person can start from that reason and mature into the preferred reason for doing works.

A child is taught to share, sometimes forced to share. But an adult can share for more appropriate reasons.

There are Christians who do works not because they want to but because as a Christian they are supposed to do so. They are still doing it because of their Christian faith though. Fast forward a year or two, they can be doing it because they've gotten over their carnal selfishness because they forced themselves to do what they didn't want to do and discovered the spiritual rewards of helping others in accordance with the will of God.
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The Pharisees of Jesus day did a lot of works for they thought heaven would be attained by doing so. Clearly their works did not impress God, for Jesus said they did not even know his father
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#27
#27
james57 said:
The Pharisees of Jesus day did a lot of works for they thought heaven would be attained by doing so. Clearly their works did not impress God, for Jesus said they did not even know his father
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Your works or mine aren't going to impress God either.
Is it your goal to impress God?
 
J

james57

Banned
#28
Oct 21, 2015
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#28
Babylonisfalling said:
Your works or mine aren't going to impress God either.
Is it your goal to impress God?
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Well as I believe I am not under a law of righteousness boasting for me is cut out as Paul says(Eph2:9)

I cannot attain Heaven by being good enough, so what have I to boast of?
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#29
#29
james57 said:
Well as I believe I am not under a law of righteousness boasting for me is cut out as Paul says(Eph2:9)

I cannot attain Heaven by being good enough, so what have I to boast of?
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How did boasting become an issue?
In fact, how did trying to impress God become an issue in the earlier post?
We can go all the way through the list of wrong motivations for works but nobody is citing those wrong motivations as good reasons for works in the first place.
And you know there are acceptable reasons for works anyway:
God accepts works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. For he wants our motives for doing works to be driven solely by love for him and others
Click to expand...
 
J

james57

Banned
#30
Oct 21, 2015
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#30
Babylonisfalling said:
How did boasting become an issue?
In fact, how did trying to impress God become an issue in the earlier post?
We can go all the way through the list of wrong motivations for works but nobody is citing those wrong motivations as good reasons for works in the first place.
And you know there are acceptable reasons for works anyway:
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Originally Posted by Babylonisfalling
Your works or mine aren't going to impress God either.
Is it your goal to impress God?



The above is how they became an issue
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#31
Apr 7, 2014
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#31
Works do not cause our faith to be alive, they SHOW that our faith is alive. The source of life in faith is not works; rather life in faith is the source of the works. A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith, but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation.
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#32
#32
james57 said:
Originally Posted by Babylonisfalling
Your works or mine aren't going to impress God either.
Is it your goal to impress God?





The above is how they became an issue
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That which you quote was a response from me, made after YOU started talking about impressing God. It puts to rest any notion of impressing God.

Then it was YOU again who started talking about boasting, not me.

The response from me which you quote was made AFTER you started making issue of boasting and impressing God, so no...my post is not how it became and issue because you were going on about those things BEFORE I made that post.
 
J

james57

Banned
#33
Oct 21, 2015
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#33
Babylonisfalling said:
That which you quote was a response from me, made after YOU started talking about impressing God. It puts to rest any notion of impressing God.

Then it was YOU again who started talking about boasting, not me.

The response from me which you quote was made AFTER you started making issue of boasting and impressing God, so no...my post is not how it became and issue because you were going on about those things BEFORE I made that post.
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Yeah you seemed to get upset/agitated when I pointed out the Pharisee did a lot of works but God wasn't impressed by the works they did
 
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B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#34
#34
james57 said:
Yeah you seemed to get upset/agitated when I pointed out the Pharisee did a lot of works but God wasn't impressed by the works they did
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I responded by saying you works or mine wouldn't impress God either, which I thought you would actually agree with. How is that a problem.
I also asked if it were your goal to impress God, which it obviously shouldn't be anymore than with the Pharisees.

The point is you came out of nowhere with stuff about boasting and impressing God, something which hadn't even been suggested in the first place. Why?
 
J

james57

Banned
#35
Oct 21, 2015
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#35
Babylonisfalling said:
I responded by saying you works or mine wouldn't impress God either, which I thought you would actually agree with. How is that a problem.
I also asked if it were your goal to impress God, which it obviously shouldn't be anymore than with the Pharisees.

The point is you came out of nowhere with stuff about boasting and impressing God, something which hadn't even been suggested in the first place. Why?
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Cant see where I used the word boasting, maybe you could put my post back up where I used that word as it seems to have got you a bit excited
Don't you think its good when discussing works to point out works can be done with the wrong motives and God does not accept such works? I honestly cant see why that should upset you at all
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#39
#39
james57 said:
Cant see where I used the word boasting, maybe you could put my post back up where I used that word as it seems to have got you a bit excited
Don't you think its good when discussing works to point out works can be done with the wrong motives and God does not accept such works? I honestly cant see why that should upset you at all
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james57 said:
Well as I believe I am not under a law of righteousness boasting for me is cut out as Paul says(Eph2:9)

I cannot attain Heaven by being good enough, so what have I to boast of?
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Maybe if someone were trying to make that point in the first place. In this case it wasn't even relevant. And maybe if you hadn't said the reason for suddenly veering off course was because of a post by me, when in truth I hadn't even made that post until AFTER you did that.
 
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