Can liars and thieves still make heaven?

MaggieMye · Nov 19, 2015

be mine
Let the pleasure of correcting you be mine! ;-) IF they are saved, they should no longer be stealing and lying.
If they continue to steal and lie after accepting Christ as Savior, then it was only in word and not in the heart that that acceptance was made. Scripture is clear: Liars and thieves do NOT see the kingdom of Heaven.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So if one is still sinning one is not saved.*

*That is NOT to say that a saved person does not sin. But sin with intent is not something a saved person chooses to do.

notuptome · Nov 19, 2015

On a more esoteric level we all rob God of what is His due. When we place our desires above Gods we rob God. How many promises are made to God that are not kept?

We need to use caution when we open these subjects up to discussion. We cannot lie to God because God already knows the truth. We can lie to ourselves and very often we do just that. Now if we lie to ourselves on the matter of salvation we are indeed in big trouble. Only the sinner and the Savior know if the confession unto salvation was real.

As long as we dwell in this body of flesh we are subject to lie and steal. When we are glorified together with our Savior we will no longer be subject to any sin.

Ask Abraham about lying to protect his wife. Ask David about eating the showbread when he and his men were hungry.

Absolutes when in the context of men are very dangerous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yet · Nov 19, 2015

Can anyone point to anywhere from Acts on where one man started telling everyone that God raised him above the rest of them and that they'd better started paying tithes to him or else?
Which brings up the question. If God almighty, Jesus Christ said 'do not lord it over His heritage' back then, why would He tell men to 'lord it over His heritage' today?

If He said through out His word not to oppress the poor back then, why would He change His mind and command men today to demand the oppressive tithe from the poor?

Who has time to witness to the lost when the hirelings are making converts twofold the Devils they are?

ukok102nak · Nov 20, 2015

there is one thing we could say about this topic my brethren :happy:

:smoke: DO NOT LIE AND STEAL BY USING THE WORDS OF GOD OF TRUTH AND LOVE . ...
:read:
Jude: 1. 20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22. And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

God bless us all always

:ty:

gotime · Nov 20, 2015

Tithe is not about lording it over people. It is about people that God has chosen to put every moment into working to save souls. People who can not work for money because they are busy ministering full time doing the will of God.

Tithe came before law before the Old Covenant as it is written:

Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Abraham of the promise by faith paid Tithe. We are children of Abraham and pay tithe unto the Lord Jesus Our High priest.

Tithe was given to the Levits so they could spend all their time working for the Lord doing His business without being distracted by other things. So it is today.

Jesus said:

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus said they should tithe. Those who say this is Jesus teaching Old covenant miss the point totally. Jesus does not teach old covenant He came to give the new, He taught truth to all.

StandingFirmInChrist · Nov 21, 2015

gotime said:

And yet, the New Covenant command is for them to work. Acts 20:33-35

Polygamy was before the Law as well. So was the marrying of one's own sister. So were animal sacrifices. Shall we pick up all those things again?

The fact is, tithing being done prior to the Law is only recorder one time. Those tithes, according to the Scriptures, did not come from Abram's own riches, nor from his own income. Nor did they come from anything that Abram owned. Abram's one-time tithe is hardly proof that tithing is to continue today. And it is not proof that one should tithe from one's household income.

the Levites did not spend all their time working for the Lord. Read 1 Chronicles 23-26. They worked shifts at the Temple. The majority of the Levites only worked at the Temple just one day per Jewish Calendar Year,... just one day out of 254.

It is you who is "missing the point." Jesus was speaking to a people under the Law. He could not teach the New Covenant living. He could not teach them to walk contrary to the Mosaic Law. The Law required them to tithe agricultural produce.

And what did Jesus say they were tithing and should tithe? Agricultural produce, i.e.; mint, rue, all manner of herbs,... Things grown in gardens. As with the Genesis 14 passage, the Luke 11:42 verse has no bearing whatsoever on the modern lie known as the monetary tithe requirement doctrine.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 21, 2015

DiscipleDave said:

I don't know if you know this or not, but if you click on the >> symbol at the top right of a quoted post, you will be directed to that post. For example, if you click on the >> next to your name, you will go to post 106. This might save you some typing.

Yet · Nov 21, 2015

I was lied to for years sitting in a den of thieves being told that I must be 'led of the Spirit' in absolutely every area of my life....except in the area of giving. We can all be trusted by God to hear God in all things and be obedient in all things to God except for .....monetary giving. We must be put under a fake law called tithing which todays tithing method is no where in the bible.

Then these money lust blowhards Scream from the pulpit ' You had better obey God in your tithing or you are a thief, a God robber...just take a look at the New Testament ..I mean the Old Testament Malachi command to Israel..I mean to all of man kind..and you'll quickly see that God means business about tithing when He had the prophet write clearly these words ' now unto you priests...I mean unto you unwashed masses, bring the tithe of grain and animals .....I mean bring your cash tithes unto the storehouse ...and see if I will not pour out a blessing on you that you will not have room to contain it.....will the ushers please come forward for the morning plundering aa..or....a I mean offering?

Do you really know of anyone after years and even decades of faithful tithing that the windows of heaven opened up and they got a blessing that they had to rent storage space in order to contain it all? Oh you have have you? Bet they were in business for themselves and things picked up for them. But your average time clock set wage guy ...well that's another story. And if they did get blessed, that's God's tender mercies poured out inspite of ignorance.

God can actually bless a 'church service' but that, in no wise, means He endorses all the falsehood going on.

If you'd admit it, a lot of the folks you know are living in hardship while continually coughing up the devilish tithe to Awesome (reverend) Onthetake! The ones doing okee dokee are the ones that have good paying jobs. Hello....hello...anybody home...hello? Wake up sleepy heads!

And you can't judge them. I've known the most holy of tithing widows that lived on nickels and dimes after paying Pastor Wonderful for the priviledge of sitting in the pew underneath their profound and dynamic impact teaching.
They all died in poverty.
Now you will say that they shouldn't have tithed with the wrong motive...to get blessed. So which is it, windows opened or windows shut.
Heres the deal. They shouldn't have tithed in order to live in poverty while the wolf lived in luxury. That's it!

This is not rocket science yet few Christians cannot break free from heresy and try clinging to the word of God. That means, in their thinking, that God is a liar and Pastor Smooth Talk is the truth.

Oh really?

DiscipleDave · Nov 27, 2015

DiscipleDave said

Ahwatukee said:

i say there are no verses which teach we are taken to Heaven, then you say, "Yes there is" then give a verse that does NOT say at all that we are taken to Heaven. Notice how YOU ADDED to the verse the statement "Jesus ascended back to heaven, which is undoubtedly where the Father's house is." You say this to support YOUR own belief, but that is NOT what the Scriptures teach, that is what YOU, Ahwatukee, thinks and believes, it is NOT what the verse teaches. Scriptures plainly teaches the New City Jerusalem comes down from Heaven to the Earth, where the Father and Jesus Christ are inside it. You seriously need to do a study on the New City Jerusalem which COMES TO EARTH. If the Holy City has Jesus, has the Father, has the Saints in it, and it is ON EARTH, how are they in Heaven, as you teach?

Ahwatukee said:

YOU say Heaven, Scriptures does not teach that, and for some reason you refuse to hear the Truth from someone who claims that Truth comes from God, if the Truth were in you, would you not know it when you heard it?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (oceans)
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (New City Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to the EARTH)
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (God Himself will be in the Holy City Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven to the EARTH)
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So Scriptures plainly teach that the HOLY CITY will come down OUT of Heaven to the Earth, and God Himself will be there? Where? The Holy City on the EARTH. Other verses confirm this as well.

Still talking about the New City Jerusalem :

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty (Father) and the Lamb (Jesus) are the temple of it.

So the Father and Jesus are in the New City Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven to the Earth.

Still talking about the New City Jerusalem

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
WHERE????? Where is the Throne of God going to be according to Scriptures? NOT in Heaven as you teach, but in the New City Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven to the EARTH. You do error not knowing the TRUTH nor believing the Scriptures which should teach you these TRUTHS, but because you are so unwilling to change what you believe, you are more willing to change Scriptures to fit your belief. Believe the Word of God NOT what men teach.

The Word of God plainly teaches that Jesus is preparing a place for us, the Word of God plainly teaches the New City Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven to the Earth, the Word of God plainly teaches that the Father and Jesus will be there inside, the Word of God plainly teaches the Throne of God will be in the New City Jerusalem. Believe the Word of God, DO NOT change the Word of God to fit your own interpretations of what you call the TRUTH.

The Lord God says "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG"

Ahwatukee said:

Know you not that the Kingdom of Heaven is where God is. Why do you think Jesus kept on saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, because the Son of God was at hand. Why do you think it is written the Kingdom of God is within us

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Because if Christ, the Son of God be in us, then that is where the Kingdom of God is.

Know you not that all the Kingdoms of the Earth becomes God's? If then all the Kingdoms of the Earth becomes God's, then the Earth also becomes a part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; (the Last TRUMP) and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Therefore the Kingdoms of the Earth are now a part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Ahwatukee said:

True, which God told me is ON EARTH at that time. Scriptures also confirms this, consider the feast.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem (New City Jerusalem) shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (This has never happened yet, but is going to happen when the Father and Jesus Christ come down out of Heaven in the Holy City Jerusalem)
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem (Holy New City Jerusalem) to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (This has never happened in the past, this is going to happen in the future when Jesus Returns with the Holy City Jerusalem)
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So there will be a FEAST, its NOT in Heaven as you teach it is, it will be in the New City Jerusalem with the Father, with Jesus, the Saints, and all the Angels. And there will be another feast that held for those who abide on the Earth, which will be Under the Holy City Jerusalem, in the valley under it.

Ahwatukee said:

The resurrection and catching away of the dead and living in Christ will take place just as it is prophesied, that part of what you say is TRUE, however the rest of what you said is NOT TRUE. the part where you say " and believers will be in heaven during that last seven years." Where is that teaching coming from? what Scriptures teaches that? show it if you are able to, but so far you have not shown one verse, but instead you show verses then ADD to those verses. Where then is that teaching coming from, because it is a teaching that does not come from Scriptures but comes from the minds of men.

Ahwatukee said:

Do you not see you teach things that the Holy Scriptures do not teach? You say above then we will return to the earth, that is not in Scriptures, that is in your imagination. Know you not that Jesus will reign on EARTH. Do you not even read the very Scriptures you use as referrences, consider:

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Who then are "THEM" those on EARTH. He comes out of the New City Jerusalem to RULE all the nations of the Earth. He does NOT come out of Heaven with the white horses, but out of the New City Jerusalem. He rules the kingdoms of the Earth OUT OF THE HOLY CITY, NOT out of Heaven. Howbeit, it is out of Heaven, because where ever the Son is, is the Kingdom of Heaven, if the Son is in the New City, on the Earth, then the Kingdom of Heaven is also on the Earth as well.

Ahwatukee said:

You do error in thinking this takes place at the end of the thousand years. What Scriptures teaches that? NONE. There is not one Scripture that teaches it is at the end of the thousand years, that is what men teach, NOT what the Word of God teaches. The Word of God plainly teaches that Jesus reigns out of the New City Jerusalem.

You teach that the Holy City comes after the thousand years, Scriptures does not teach that. Scriptures teach that we Saints reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

2Ti_2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us:

Saints will reign WITH Him.

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Will you debate what Scriptures plainly teaches?

Scriptures plainly teach we will reign with Jesus ON THE EARTH. will you buck against this Truth as well. Or will you try to interpret this verse to mean something other that what it plainly says so as to fit your own belief of what you THINK is the TRUTH?

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Reign over WHO for a thousand years? So The Word of God plainly teaches we will reign with Him, ON THE EARTH, and for a thousand years. Not only do i teach this exact same thing, it is exactly what God told me as well. Scriptures confirms what He told me. So the question is, will you change your belief to match Scriptures, or change the Scriptures to match your belief?

^i^ responding to post #112

DiscipleDave · Nov 27, 2015

valiant said:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So let me understand this. The Apostle John tells us the Holy City New Jerusalem is prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, but valiant says the Church is the bride and that we are the HOLY City.

Should i believe the Word of God or believe Valiant?

^i^ responding to post #120

DiscipleDave · Nov 27, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

No, i did not know that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, i will see if that will help me. Thank you for pointing this out, may the Lord Jesus Bless you this coming week.

^i^

DiscipleDave · Nov 27, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Yes, that is going to work much better. i was always putting the post i responded to, to help me get back to the next post, now all i have to do is click on the >>. Thank you so much for teaching me that.

^i^

Yet · Nov 27, 2015

Isaiah 56:10-11 His watchmen are blind, they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, that cannot bark. Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yes they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, they are shepherds that can never understand. They all look to their own way. Everyone for his gain. From his quarter.

Ezekiel 22:25-27 there is a conspiracy of her prophets....like a roaring lion ravening the prey. They have devoured souls, they have taken the treasure and precious things. They have made her many widows in the midst thereof. Her priests have violated my law.
And have profaned My holy things. ....her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves, ravening the prey, to shed blood, to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

Paul said that after he departed, wolves would rise up(Diotrephes wanting to be the single salaried pastor) not sparing the flock.

james57 · Nov 27, 2015

Yet said:

Isaiah 56:10-11 His watchmen are blind, they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, that cannot bark. Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yes they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, they are shepherds that can never understand. They all look to their own way. Everyone for his gain. From his quarter.

Ezekiel 22:25-27 there is a conspiracy of her prophets....like a roaring lion ravening the prey. They have devoured souls, they have taken the treasure and precious things. They have made her many widows in the midst thereof. Her priests have violated my law.
And have profaned My holy things. ....her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves, ravening the prey, to shed blood, to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

Paul said that after he departed, wolves would rise up(Diotrephes wanting to be the single salaried pastor) not sparing the flock.

I wonder if Paul meant scholars and philosophers when he used the terms wolves? (1cor1:20)

The greatest power and most rapid growth in the christian church was seen before their emergence, not after

Yet · Nov 27, 2015

james57 said:

He meant liars and thieves. Those that exalted themselves taking followings unto themselves. Those that wrested the scriptures for fun and profit.

Yet · Dec 6, 2015

Rev. 21:8 ..all LIARS (for fun and profit)...shall have their part in the lake of fire.
22:15 ...without are ....and whosoever loves and makes a LIE..(for fun and profit)...
22:18 if any man shall add to these things (for fun and profit) ...
21:27 ..there shall no wise enter into it anything that ....makes a LIE (for fun and profit)...

Romans 3:13 their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used DECIET (for fun and profit).....
1Tim. 1:10 ...for liars, for perjured persons ...
4:1-2 the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times, ........giving heed to seducing spirits, doctrines of Devils, speaking lies (for fun and profit)...

The modern doctrine of tithing is a doctrine of Devils. In light of all the verses I have displayed, does anyone still think that it's ok to lie for fun and profit without ever repenting?
I take the word of God seriously on this issue.

Psalm 5:6 You will destroy (Hebrew:Abad: annihilate) them that speak falsehood .

DiscipleDave · Dec 19, 2015

Yet said:

i do not know what the modern doctrine of tithing teaches. But i do know there is nothing wrong for a person to tithe to his/her Church. Likewise there is nothing wrong with a person who do not tithe. What is WRONG, is for anyone to teach Christians that they MUST TITHE 10%. Or worse yet teach that they commit sin if they do not tithe 10%.

Again, nothing wrong with Giving. A lot wrong with saying you MUST GIVE 10% Tithe.

^i^

Jayoish · Dec 26, 2015

Yet said:

No, no one will make it to heaven. God did not promise any of us to go to heaven. If he did, please provide me the scripture where he said it. However, I will provide you the scripture where Jesus stated you could not come up there: see John 8:21 -- ( 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. )

Jayoish

Ahwatukee · Dec 26, 2015

First, here is the scriptural proof which demonstrates that at the time of death, the believers spirit/soul departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. "

The scriptures above state that at the time the believer dies, their spirit/soul goes to be in the presence of the Lord, which would be in heaven and that because Scripture states that he ascended to the right hand of God and makes intercession for all believers. And therefore, when we go to be in his presence, then that would have be in heaven. Now, the following is the promise of our going to heaven after the dead in Christ are resurrected and those who are still alive are changed into our glorified bodies:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

So, according to the scripture above, Jesus told his disciples and all believers, that he was going back to the Father's house to prepare a place for all believers. I'm sure that you would agree that the "Father's house" would be without a doubt, in heaven. Therefore, since Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us there, then when he comes, he will gather us and take us back to the Father's house so that we may be where Jesus is. This event of him coming to gather us can be found in 1 Cor.15:51-53 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

Just FYI, in the scripture you quoted above, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and religious leaders who didn't believe in him, which is why he said, "you will die in your sins." He was not speaking to believers saying "Where I go, you cannot come." The reason that those religious leaders cannot come is because if they die in their sins, they will be going to Hades and then after the thousand years they will appear at the great white throne judgment and not to heaven.

Hope this helps clear things up.

Ahwatukee · Dec 26, 2015

Yet said:

Hello Yet and Happy Holiday's!

Here is the simple answer, Yes! liars and thieves can go to heaven just like any other sinner, if they receive Christ as Lord and Savior and repent.

Can liars and thieves still make heaven?

MaggieMye

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