Can we be saved in all three tenses ? Past, present, and future.
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I love God and keep His commandments, the commandments of Jesus.
You are now promoting the following...
1. Ye cannot obey God.
Thus necessitating...
2. Ye can sin and not surely die.
... You perceive grace as a cloak for ongoing iniquity in the heart because you simply do not believe that God can truly deliver you from sin. He can and does to those whom repent and yield.
Look at what Paul wrote...
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
You obviously deny that you can be redeemed from ALL iniquity and truly purified whereby you are made zealous of righteousness. That is why you want to accuse me of sin, because you cannot tolerate a Christianity which truly sets people free. You want both SIN and CHRIST. You have erred regarding the faith and are in great danger in believing that.
You are now promoting the following...
1. Ye cannot obey God.
Thus necessitating...
2. Ye can sin and not surely die.
... You perceive grace as a cloak for ongoing iniquity in the heart because you simply do not believe that God can truly deliver you from sin. He can and does to those whom repent and yield.
Look at what Paul wrote...
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
You obviously deny that you can be redeemed from ALL iniquity and truly purified whereby you are made zealous of righteousness. That is why you want to accuse me of sin, because you cannot tolerate a Christianity which truly sets people free. You want both SIN and CHRIST. You have erred regarding the faith and are in great danger in believing that.
Then how does GOD justify the ungodly Rom 4.7? You can argue round it but you cannot answer it.
'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)
argue round that too,
'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)
argue round that too,
Yet you don't address a single thing I mentioned.
The covenant is this...
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Jesus, by His death, established the New Covenant. We enter into the New Covenant via the blood through repentance and faith.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
There is nothing forensic or positional about it. It is a REAL coming clean with God with a true heart and entering into a covenant whereby we walk in purity having been cleansed of our past rebellion and purged of iniquity through the godly sorrow of repentance.
You asserted a judicial forensic of the "righteousness of Christ" to your account and have yet to show a single scripture which teaches that. You cannot show a scripture that teaches that because it is not taught in the Bible.
People twist Rom 4:5 as a proof text yet it says that FAITH is what God counts for righteousness and the FAITH described is a wholehearted yielding to and trusting in God. That is not a positional transfer of the obedience of someone else to your account. Vice and virtue are simply not transferable properties because they are MORAL ISSUES not material substances.
You can claim I don't understand covenants all you like but that is just a vacuous statement by which you avoid addressing anything I have actually written.
The covenant is this...
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Jesus, by His death, established the New Covenant. We enter into the New Covenant via the blood through repentance and faith.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
There is nothing forensic or positional about it. It is a REAL coming clean with God with a true heart and entering into a covenant whereby we walk in purity having been cleansed of our past rebellion and purged of iniquity through the godly sorrow of repentance.
You asserted a judicial forensic of the "righteousness of Christ" to your account and have yet to show a single scripture which teaches that. You cannot show a scripture that teaches that because it is not taught in the Bible.
People twist Rom 4:5 as a proof text yet it says that FAITH is what God counts for righteousness and the FAITH described is a wholehearted yielding to and trusting in God. That is not a positional transfer of the obedience of someone else to your account. Vice and virtue are simply not transferable properties because they are MORAL ISSUES not material substances.
You can claim I don't understand covenants all you like but that is just a vacuous statement by which you avoid addressing anything I have actually written.
Valiant, you just sinned...
I think we all know that none of us go any real extended period of time without sin. We just can't. I would love to say that I have not sinned, not once, for just a week. Or how about 3 days.
Lets even put aside loving God with all our heart and soul.
Just the realm of what is in our minds is proof enough to say we can't go long without sinning.
We repent, feel terrible, and try not to do it again. We try really hard. We mean it with our being, at our core. But yet...
Even say exclude our thoughts, just consider sin only in our words and actions.
Can anyone say that they have gone, I don't know, 2 weeks without sinning using those parameters?
Remember an arrogant word, a prideful action, a selfish action, that is sin.
So we all have to work it out. Give him some rope. He seems sincere, so he will probably one day come to the realization of what God needs him to see.
Better that he is saved and seeking then those who are lost and not even looking.
He is with us, even if a bit sideways, maybe.
I think we all know that none of us go any real extended period of time without sin. We just can't. I would love to say that I have not sinned, not once, for just a week. Or how about 3 days.
Lets even put aside loving God with all our heart and soul.
Just the realm of what is in our minds is proof enough to say we can't go long without sinning.
We repent, feel terrible, and try not to do it again. We try really hard. We mean it with our being, at our core. But yet...
Even say exclude our thoughts, just consider sin only in our words and actions.
Can anyone say that they have gone, I don't know, 2 weeks without sinning using those parameters?
Remember an arrogant word, a prideful action, a selfish action, that is sin.
So we all have to work it out. Give him some rope. He seems sincere, so he will probably one day come to the realization of what God needs him to see.
Better that he is saved and seeking then those who are lost and not even looking.
He is with us, even if a bit sideways, maybe.
"Ungodly" is in the context of "those whom have sinned." It is not in the context of those whom are still in rebellion.
The Bible emphatically states...
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
The rebellion has to STOP. The rebellion has to be FORSAKEN. You are opposing that principle by contending that it cannot be forsaken and due to that God justifies you whilst still in rebellion. Is Proverbs 28:13 a lie? Surely you believe it is.
The same with the following...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
The way of the wicked and unrighteous thoughts have to be FORSAKEN. THEN mercy can be granted, not before. The Prodigal Son had to forsake his rebellion and RETURN to the Father. He was not restored whilst in the pig pen, he had to leave.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
The Bible is so clear on this, you just don't believe what it plainly says.
Again look at what Paul writes...
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
He is quoting David...
Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
...
Psa 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
God is not going to forgive anyone whom still has guile in their heart and is thus not upright in heart.
Repentance purges the iniquity from the heart by which we can yield wholeheartedly to God. Paul described it thus...
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
The fruit of godly sorrow is not ongoing wickedness, rather it is a forsaking of wickedness and a zealousness for righteousness, a zealousness for yielding to God.
Believe the Bible, not the misrepresentations of false teachers.
When Jesus said that it is the PURE IN HEART who will see God, BELIEVE IT.
The Bible emphatically states...
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
The rebellion has to STOP. The rebellion has to be FORSAKEN. You are opposing that principle by contending that it cannot be forsaken and due to that God justifies you whilst still in rebellion. Is Proverbs 28:13 a lie? Surely you believe it is.
The same with the following...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
The way of the wicked and unrighteous thoughts have to be FORSAKEN. THEN mercy can be granted, not before. The Prodigal Son had to forsake his rebellion and RETURN to the Father. He was not restored whilst in the pig pen, he had to leave.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
The Bible is so clear on this, you just don't believe what it plainly says.
Again look at what Paul writes...
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
He is quoting David...
Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
...
Psa 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
God is not going to forgive anyone whom still has guile in their heart and is thus not upright in heart.
Repentance purges the iniquity from the heart by which we can yield wholeheartedly to God. Paul described it thus...
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
The fruit of godly sorrow is not ongoing wickedness, rather it is a forsaking of wickedness and a zealousness for righteousness, a zealousness for yielding to God.
Believe the Bible, not the misrepresentations of false teachers.
When Jesus said that it is the PURE IN HEART who will see God, BELIEVE IT.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Yes we can stop sinning because sin is rooted in a defiled heart. Jesus is able to purify your heart whereby the love of God is shed within. Then it is out of love that we walk in victory over sin.
Sure we may fall short in ignorance, but ignorance is not rooted in a wicked heart. Thus the sins of the flesh, ie. unjust anger, tempers, immorality, lust, selfishness all cease. We instead walk by a faith that works by love and love works no ill. That is what the Bible teaches.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Many people simply do not want to believe such because they refuse to forsake their sin. They refuse to crucify their old man in repentance, thus the old man (man of rebellion) still lives. The old man has to die once and for all in repentance whereby we may be raised up to newness of life as servants of righteousness.
Remember Jesus taught of the grain of wheat which must die in order to bear fruit. That is about us. If we lose our lives we will save them, if we save our lives we will lose them. We have to die to sin in repentance whereby we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Sure we may fall short in ignorance, but ignorance is not rooted in a wicked heart. Thus the sins of the flesh, ie. unjust anger, tempers, immorality, lust, selfishness all cease. We instead walk by a faith that works by love and love works no ill. That is what the Bible teaches.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Many people simply do not want to believe such because they refuse to forsake their sin. They refuse to crucify their old man in repentance, thus the old man (man of rebellion) still lives. The old man has to die once and for all in repentance whereby we may be raised up to newness of life as servants of righteousness.
Remember Jesus taught of the grain of wheat which must die in order to bear fruit. That is about us. If we lose our lives we will save them, if we save our lives we will lose them. We have to die to sin in repentance whereby we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Because your rejection of what a covenant is and accomplishes invalidated everything else you wrote.
From where you are at now, until you understand the exchange nature of blood covenants and their importance to GOD in his dealings with men (GOD only deals with man through covenants), you will not be able to understand the gospel.
From where you are at now, until you understand the exchange nature of blood covenants and their importance to GOD in his dealings with men (GOD only deals with man through covenants), you will not be able to understand the gospel.
To say we do not sin is to put us at level with Jesus. How can any Christian do that.
Does one with that mindset want to be God?
But conversely, we must not have a mindset that allows us to believe it is impossible to not sin.
Lets strive for the highest mountain top.
The bible says we need more faith. Lets have faith we will, through Jesus, not sin.
Lets have faith that we won't sin. Jesus said anything is possible with God.
So in a way, Skinski7 is right, we are setting ourselves up for failure. We need not compromise our thoughts.
I bet that if we had a attitude of
"I will not sin",
that we would sin less, maybe markedly so.
Having the attitude that we are just going to sin, even if we are, I don't think is an attitude Jesus would approve of.
He was always encouraging and stressing about not being a slave to sin.
If we think it must happen, we are setting ourselves up for failure.
I know it is somewhat of a paradox, but isn't it better to have a mindset that we will not sin, that Jesus has empowered us to say no to sin, then walk around with a yoke around our necks saying I know I will sin?
Does one with that mindset want to be God?
But conversely, we must not have a mindset that allows us to believe it is impossible to not sin.
Lets strive for the highest mountain top.
The bible says we need more faith. Lets have faith we will, through Jesus, not sin.
Lets have faith that we won't sin. Jesus said anything is possible with God.
So in a way, Skinski7 is right, we are setting ourselves up for failure. We need not compromise our thoughts.
I bet that if we had a attitude of
"I will not sin",
that we would sin less, maybe markedly so.
Having the attitude that we are just going to sin, even if we are, I don't think is an attitude Jesus would approve of.
He was always encouraging and stressing about not being a slave to sin.
If we think it must happen, we are setting ourselves up for failure.
I know it is somewhat of a paradox, but isn't it better to have a mindset that we will not sin, that Jesus has empowered us to say no to sin, then walk around with a yoke around our necks saying I know I will sin?
Read my post above. While I don't agree with how you came to your conclusion, nor do I agree that we will be sinless, you have motivated me, and spurred me to view this in another way.
What you have just done for me is priceless, so I thank you for that.
I am changing my attitude toward sinning.
I am 100% certain I will sin less because of that.
God, I already have more faith.
What you have just done for me is priceless, so I thank you for that.
I am changing my attitude toward sinning.
I am 100% certain I will sin less because of that.
God, I already have more faith.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Joh_5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh_8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
You are basically claiming that none can walk as Jesus walked, ie. without sinning. Yet the Bible contradicts that assertion very clearly.
Simple though repentance and faith.
If we are broken in godly sorrow and thus experience a real repentance by which the rebellion in our hearts is purged we are then able to wholeheartedly yield to God. In yielding to God the power of God enables us to walk in victory over sin.
Do you think sin is more powerful than God? Perish the thought.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Mat 1:21), BELIEVE IT. Many won't believe it because they instead uphold "sin you will and sin you must." Thus they argue in favour of ongoing wickedness and therefore have to uphold a false salvation by which they think their ongoing evil is cloaked.
Want to be God? NO. We merely want to serve God acceptably and thus uphold His standard. That is our reasonable service. There is no pride or covetousness in that.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We don't sin less, we STOP sinning. Jesus did not tell people to "sin less," he told them to "STOP SINNING."
The sin we are talking about here is rebellion, not mistakes of ignorance. When we repent we forsake walking our own way in discordance with our Creator. We instead CHOOSE to yield to our Creator and walk in accordance with His will wherever that leads. That is what faith is, the active walk of obedience to and trust in God. That is what God expects and that is what we must do if we want to live.
The paradox only exists if you believe in INABILITY, ie. "sin you will and sin you must." Inability is a false teaching designed to destroy you. Don't fall for it.
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Joh_5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh_8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
You are basically claiming that none can walk as Jesus walked, ie. without sinning. Yet the Bible contradicts that assertion very clearly.
Simple though repentance and faith.
If we are broken in godly sorrow and thus experience a real repentance by which the rebellion in our hearts is purged we are then able to wholeheartedly yield to God. In yielding to God the power of God enables us to walk in victory over sin.
Do you think sin is more powerful than God? Perish the thought.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Mat 1:21), BELIEVE IT. Many won't believe it because they instead uphold "sin you will and sin you must." Thus they argue in favour of ongoing wickedness and therefore have to uphold a false salvation by which they think their ongoing evil is cloaked.
Want to be God? NO. We merely want to serve God acceptably and thus uphold His standard. That is our reasonable service. There is no pride or covetousness in that.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We don't sin less, we STOP sinning. Jesus did not tell people to "sin less," he told them to "STOP SINNING."
The sin we are talking about here is rebellion, not mistakes of ignorance. When we repent we forsake walking our own way in discordance with our Creator. We instead CHOOSE to yield to our Creator and walk in accordance with His will wherever that leads. That is what faith is, the active walk of obedience to and trust in God. That is what God expects and that is what we must do if we want to live.
The paradox only exists if you believe in INABILITY, ie. "sin you will and sin you must." Inability is a false teaching designed to destroy you. Don't fall for it.
Look at what Paul wrote...
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Have you been freed from sin? Has your body of sin (that heart of rebellion) been destroyed once and for all, whereby you no longer serve sin?
Surely your claim of ongoing sin is a claim that this has not occurred in your life.
Paul wrote...
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Do you let sin reign over your mortal body? Do you obey the lusts of your mortal body and yield to sin?
Think about it.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
You are a slave to whom you obey. SIN IS A CHOICE.
Jesus taught...
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Have you been set free indeed? Is a claim of "sinning less" denote being free indeed or ongoing bondage? It seems pretty clear to me that it denotes ongoing bondage.
John writes...
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
You see our opinions ought to agree with what the Bible says. Those statements I quotes are all very plain, they are not obscure at all. Whosoever is born of God sins not, he that is begotten of God keeps himself... does that sound like sinning less and ongoing defeat to you?
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Be a son of God through repentance and faith. Come clean and enter into covenant by the blood and partake in the victory that we find in Christ. Jesus TRULY sets us free, Jesus TRULY saves is FROM sin.
Believe it.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Have you been freed from sin? Has your body of sin (that heart of rebellion) been destroyed once and for all, whereby you no longer serve sin?
Surely your claim of ongoing sin is a claim that this has not occurred in your life.
Paul wrote...
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Do you let sin reign over your mortal body? Do you obey the lusts of your mortal body and yield to sin?
Think about it.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
You are a slave to whom you obey. SIN IS A CHOICE.
Jesus taught...
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Have you been set free indeed? Is a claim of "sinning less" denote being free indeed or ongoing bondage? It seems pretty clear to me that it denotes ongoing bondage.
John writes...
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
You see our opinions ought to agree with what the Bible says. Those statements I quotes are all very plain, they are not obscure at all. Whosoever is born of God sins not, he that is begotten of God keeps himself... does that sound like sinning less and ongoing defeat to you?
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Be a son of God through repentance and faith. Come clean and enter into covenant by the blood and partake in the victory that we find in Christ. Jesus TRULY sets us free, Jesus TRULY saves is FROM sin.
Believe it.
2 Timothy 2:19-21 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
That word "sanctified" in the OT is defined as holy, prepared, consecrecated, to be clean both ceremonially and morally, purified.
In the NT it means making holy, being purified.
In regards of salvation, the candidate must comply with scriptures, making steady progress, not a backslider that the world mocks Christ through. Jesus put it simply enough, "Repent and believe my gospel". That passage above is part of his gospel as revealed by Paul through the Holy Spirit.
Not one soul will be saved that has persisted in serving sin and Satan, while attempting to claim holiness as a person sanctified unto good works, but known for sin-works as a make-believer of Christ. Children of the Devil do such things, while the true Children of God are being purified from sin in this life, being made holy as God is holy, before dying.
Believe and show the fruit of that belief all your days here. Look up the context of James 2:19 (KJV[SUP])[/SUP] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
That word "sanctified" in the OT is defined as holy, prepared, consecrecated, to be clean both ceremonially and morally, purified.
In the NT it means making holy, being purified.
In regards of salvation, the candidate must comply with scriptures, making steady progress, not a backslider that the world mocks Christ through. Jesus put it simply enough, "Repent and believe my gospel". That passage above is part of his gospel as revealed by Paul through the Holy Spirit.
Not one soul will be saved that has persisted in serving sin and Satan, while attempting to claim holiness as a person sanctified unto good works, but known for sin-works as a make-believer of Christ. Children of the Devil do such things, while the true Children of God are being purified from sin in this life, being made holy as God is holy, before dying.
Believe and show the fruit of that belief all your days here. Look up the context of James 2:19 (KJV[SUP])[/SUP] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
The covenant of Christ makes a slave to sin free from that slavery, then permits the former slave to choose whom he will serve. A freed slave can then choose the next master. If he stays in the habit that got him into slavery, he will return to slavery and hardship. But if he take Jesus as Lord, he will be sanctified so as to remain free by the one who made him free.
Implying the blood of Jesus "set" someone free by covenant standards, yet the one set free tends to choose life in slavery to the former oppressor, is a gross misunderstanding of such covenants. One cannot serve two masters. He must love one and hate the other.
Implying the blood of Jesus "set" someone free by covenant standards, yet the one set free tends to choose life in slavery to the former oppressor, is a gross misunderstanding of such covenants. One cannot serve two masters. He must love one and hate the other.
I said in a previous post that I need, I think most of us need, to be more steely minded regarding sin. We need to abhor it, be repulsed by it, and believe that we will not sin, ever, while also understanding we will. It is paradoxical, despite you saying it is not.
But you sound a little like the name it and claim it movement that was popular years ago. No amount of positive thought and faith is going to save me if I jump from a 40 story building. No amount of positive thinking, and faith, is going to grow back a arm on someone missing a arm.
So I don't get run off this thread, I am not saying prayer and faith can not move mountains, nor that God can not do what seems impossible to us. Yes, God can save someone who has jumped from 40 stories up. Yes, God can grow someones arm back. I am generalizing. But I doubt any of you know anyone who has grown back an arm, or seen a person live who jumped from 40 stories.
I am saying that just because we may believe with all our heart and soul that we won't sin, and pray about it all day long, we will still eventually sin.
Do monks sin? Less temptation...
So while I have found value in what your saying, and I am going to change my mindset, I think your taking it to a impossible extreme, for all, or if not all, then 99.9999% of, Christians.
You sound like the person who is obsessed with following all 632 (or however many, I think I am close) ordinates of the law. There is a slavish imprisonment in that.
There is freedom in Christ, and enslavement in sin, yet just the process of being paranoid about sin, or allowing the thought of never sinning rule us is a enslavement.
Jesus did not die on the cross for us to have that. Nor does he want us to avoid sin to the point where we become monks. Not most of us, anyway. There is no glory to God in that.
The bible says we are all with sin, but some of us may be blameless.
So what can I say?
I don't think I can put up a argument against the fact that Jesus has empowered us to be sinless in the sense that we can be selfless as a lifestyle, Jesus minded as a lifestyle, a servant as a lifestyle.
Maybe that is what Christ expects when he says sin no more.
That glorifies Christ and repels the foothold of a sinful lifestyle.
None of us can go without sinning for long periods of time. I believe that goes for you to, despite your protestations.
In fact, I am not sure, but it seems by your dogged insistence, you are sinning now. Doth protest to much.
But maybe you just love us so much and have such strong feelings that you are helping us, that I am wrong.
But I know I will sin again.
He died on the cross for our sins. He holds us to a high standard, as He should. But not a impossible standard.
Narrow is the gate. But it is not shut either.
When he speaks to the 7 churches in Revelations, he makes it clear about being lukewarm. So we gather from that we must be hot against sin, and for pleasing and serving God.
Which is not to say we will be sinless, but we/I must take the seriousness of sin and it's utter ruin and destruction to another level.
So you have opened up a conversation, for me at least, in that regard, even tough that is not your intent. It has a value.
When I said in a previous post it is getting hot here, I did not foresee that later on I would be speaking about hot and cold and lukewarm.
Maybe it is a sign from God.
But you sound a little like the name it and claim it movement that was popular years ago. No amount of positive thought and faith is going to save me if I jump from a 40 story building. No amount of positive thinking, and faith, is going to grow back a arm on someone missing a arm.
So I don't get run off this thread, I am not saying prayer and faith can not move mountains, nor that God can not do what seems impossible to us. Yes, God can save someone who has jumped from 40 stories up. Yes, God can grow someones arm back. I am generalizing. But I doubt any of you know anyone who has grown back an arm, or seen a person live who jumped from 40 stories.
I am saying that just because we may believe with all our heart and soul that we won't sin, and pray about it all day long, we will still eventually sin.
Do monks sin? Less temptation...
So while I have found value in what your saying, and I am going to change my mindset, I think your taking it to a impossible extreme, for all, or if not all, then 99.9999% of, Christians.
You sound like the person who is obsessed with following all 632 (or however many, I think I am close) ordinates of the law. There is a slavish imprisonment in that.
There is freedom in Christ, and enslavement in sin, yet just the process of being paranoid about sin, or allowing the thought of never sinning rule us is a enslavement.
Jesus did not die on the cross for us to have that. Nor does he want us to avoid sin to the point where we become monks. Not most of us, anyway. There is no glory to God in that.
The bible says we are all with sin, but some of us may be blameless.
So what can I say?
I don't think I can put up a argument against the fact that Jesus has empowered us to be sinless in the sense that we can be selfless as a lifestyle, Jesus minded as a lifestyle, a servant as a lifestyle.
Maybe that is what Christ expects when he says sin no more.
That glorifies Christ and repels the foothold of a sinful lifestyle.
None of us can go without sinning for long periods of time. I believe that goes for you to, despite your protestations.
In fact, I am not sure, but it seems by your dogged insistence, you are sinning now. Doth protest to much.
But maybe you just love us so much and have such strong feelings that you are helping us, that I am wrong.
But I know I will sin again.
He died on the cross for our sins. He holds us to a high standard, as He should. But not a impossible standard.
Narrow is the gate. But it is not shut either.
When he speaks to the 7 churches in Revelations, he makes it clear about being lukewarm. So we gather from that we must be hot against sin, and for pleasing and serving God.
Which is not to say we will be sinless, but we/I must take the seriousness of sin and it's utter ruin and destruction to another level.
So you have opened up a conversation, for me at least, in that regard, even tough that is not your intent. It has a value.
When I said in a previous post it is getting hot here, I did not foresee that later on I would be speaking about hot and cold and lukewarm.
Maybe it is a sign from God.
J
This is a double verily or truly verse. The one who believes has eternal life, present tense.
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Without plastering a few screens full of eternal security verses, the issue is whether one is truly born again, or not, of repentant faith and born of the Holy Spirit, or not. If so, you are a child of God, have eternal life, now and forever. Just like there's no such thing as getting unborn again, there is no such thing as temporary eternal life. It's not that complicated. End of story.
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Without plastering a few screens full of eternal security verses, the issue is whether one is truly born again, or not, of repentant faith and born of the Holy Spirit, or not. If so, you are a child of God, have eternal life, now and forever. Just like there's no such thing as getting unborn again, there is no such thing as temporary eternal life. It's not that complicated. End of story.
