Calvinism, Right or wrong?

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JesusIsAll

Guest
#41
#41
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I love Adrian Rogers. Since sin came by free will, it must be destroyed by free will.
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I've dearly loved Adrian Rogers for a long time. Just a great, great man of God, the Lord Jesus always front and center, and a deep thinker, looking for everything to be found in scripture many miss. He's sort of the 13th apostle, to me, learned so much from him.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#42
Nov 24, 2012
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#42
TMS said:
Do you think the teachings of John Calvin are correct?
T-U-L-I-P acronym

Total Depravity, - also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.
Unconditional Election, - asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
Limited Atonement, - also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."
Irresistible Grace, - also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."
Perseverance of the Saints, - (or perseverance of God with the saints) (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened and will repent.

These are the main five points that Calvinism teaches, Today they might be called something different but they come from the same place.
Are they right or wrong?
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TULIP is not Calvinism as Calvin taught. TULIP was a reaction against the 5 points of Arminius and is called 'Calvinism' today.
Calvinism has more to do with taking a Covenantal approach to Scripture and practice.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#43
#43
crossnote said:
TULIP is not Calvinism as Calvin taught. TULIP was a reaction against the 5 points of Arminius and is called 'Calvinism' today.
Calvinism has more to do with taking a Covenantal approach to Scripture and practice.
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I thought that Calvinism came from the council of dort.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#44
#44
crossnote said:
TULIP is not Calvinism as Calvin taught. TULIP was a reaction against the 5 points of Arminius and is called 'Calvinism' today.
Calvinism has more to do with taking a Covenantal approach to Scripture and practice.
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So, are you saying the OP is just a tiptoe through the tulips?
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#45
#45
[video=youtube;tKXYeUqH8QE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKXYeUqH8QE[/video]
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#46
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
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#46
Chuckt said:
I thought that Calvinism came from the council of dort.
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Right, it was a response to the 5 points offered by Arminius. But that isn't calvinism that Calvin taught.
Just like most of Lutheranism today isn't what Luther taught.

If one wants to know what Calvin taught go to his Institues. There, predestination doesn't come up until vol.III.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#47
#47
[video=youtube;QR0lN5aBWdY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QR0lN5aBWdY[/video]
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#48
#48
[video=youtube;6prrlabhGtg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6prrlabhGtg[/video]
 
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sharkwhales

Senior Member
#49
Jan 31, 2016
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#49
JesusIsAll said:
all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God

The OP is not disagreeing with this, though, if you mean by God giving us a choice the drawing and conviction of the Holy Spirit, scripture clear no man seeks after God. We don't do anything by our own spiritually blind, fallen faculties of the flesh.
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Romans 4 talks about Abraham believing and it being credited to him as righteousness. Hebrews 11 also goes on about many old testament figures having faith. It would seem God is always and has always been involved, so people have always been responding in faith. Some faculty is involved even if it doesn't stand on its own.
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
#50
#50
sharkwhales said:
Romans 4 talks about Abraham believing and it being credited to him as righteousness. Hebrews 11 also goes on about many old testament figures having faith. It would seem God is always and has always been involved, so people have always been responding in faith. Some faculty is involved even if it doesn't stand on its own.
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I've never known how anything scholarly could have resulted in aspects of Calvinism, which I've never studied, have not tended, desired, to learn from any theologian with a basic premise egregiously wrong, know scripture Calvinists call upon, but they pit scripture against scripture and make suppositions, from even hypotheticals, cardinal exegetical errors. There's no sense even wasting one's time, wading into a swamp, when you could be studying somebody of truth, this always the approach I've preferred.

We are responsible for responding to the gospel of our wills, this so obvious in even Sunday school scripture, for instance, what part of "whosoever" they don't get beyond me, and one example of many. As you point out, Abraham had to have faith, and his faith was counted unto him as righteousness. I don't know what kind of fool could believe God has spent the past 6,000 years trying to reason with men he made incapable of reason. That sort of Calvinism belongs on the Twilight Zone, seriously, could make for some amazing, twisted stories, but just that, stories.
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
#51
#51
Correction: I don't know what kind of fool could believe God has spent the past 6,000 years trying to reason with men He made incapable of reason.

It was a typo, but, still, sorry Lord! Only we be little he... wish the King James didn't do that, too...
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
#52
#52
I think Calvinisms are funny. :rolleyes:

calvin.jpg
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#53
#53
JesusIsAll said:
Correction: I don't know what kind of fool could believe God has spent the past 6,000 years trying to reason with men He made incapable of reason.

It was a typo, but, still, sorry Lord! Only we be little he... wish the King James didn't do that, too...
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Except we can reason and non saved people can reason:

Isaiah 1:18 ¶ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If their sins are scarlet colored then they are unsaved and God says, "let us reason together" which means that unsaved people can reason.
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
#54
#54
Chuckt said:
Except we can reason and non saved people can reason:

Isaiah 1:18 ¶ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If their sins are scarlet colored then they are unsaved and God says, "let us reason together" which means that unsaved people can reason.
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Except? Don't understand what you're responding to. God has always reasoned with mankind and presented choices, my point.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#55
Jul 31, 2013
36,722
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#55
_________________
12728537_1650221795239349_542330116_n.jpg
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#56
#56
JesusIsAll said:
Except? Don't understand what you're responding to. God has always reasoned with mankind and presented choices, my point.
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You wrote that man was incapable of reason.
Insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
God reasons because He knows that man can reason.
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
#57
#57
Chuckt said:
You wrote that man was incapable of reason.
Insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
God reasons because He knows that man can reason.
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That is not what I intended to say, was rather saying the Calvinist view of man being incapable of reason would make it foolish of God to reason as He has, throughout history. I was not saying man is incapable of reason, rather this a reference to what Calvinism infers, or outright demands. I was making no bizarre statement man is incapable of reason, strange you could find this in the context, but whatever. How about this? Man can reason. I am not a Calvinist. You may say I wrote that.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#58
#58
John146 said:
Go back and read the book of Jonah again. Jonah never preached repentance. Jonah's message was simple, "yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." It was a message of destruction because Nineveh's wickedness had come up before God. Nineveh hated Israel, so in order to protect Israel and the "seed" from Nineveh, God would destroy them before they destroyed Israel.

It just so happens that Nineveh believed God at this message from Jonah and cried out to Him and maybe in turn, God would spare them.

Verse 9, "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Then we have God changing His mind (which Calvinists have a hard time dealing with).

Verse 10, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

God drove Jonah to go to Nineveh with the purpose of saving His people Israel.
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Soooo, Jonah didn't choose the repentance message either? Okay. He had that choice too. And yet, once again, God got his will. There is no "It just happens" because God is and always gets what he wants.

Thanks for showing me more of Jonah's choices.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#59
#59
Chuckt said:
The Gnostic Origins of Calvinism Paperback – October 8, 2013
by Ken Johnson (Author)



The Dark Side of Calvinism: The Calvinist Caste System Paperback – January, 2004
by George Bryson (Author), Chuck Smith (Foreword)


The Five Points of Calvinism Jan 1, 1996
by George Bryson

Here is a free online book you can read from your browser:

http://www.alwaysbeready.com/images...s of calvinism_ weighed and found wanting.pdf
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I don't know any of your references, so thought I'd pick the name of just one author you chose and see what I could find out about him. I chose George Bryson -- only because you referenced him twice. One of the first posts I looked at about him, and yes, I do look at the comments too. Got to say, can't really get excited about a denomination that's not a denomination but gets as abusive as you are about what others must or mustn't agree about.

I just don't like my scholars as emotional as I am. I'd rather have sound teaching than arguing over logos and trademarks for a non-denom denom.

But I now see why you think your nonstop combativeness is a sign of something good.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#60
#60
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Paul, Moses, David repented. No record of Calvin repenting, but he did boast about killing Servetus.
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Oi vey! Yes there is! (As if publically recorded records is all that's required. But hey, there is. You're just very selective in what you want to believe.)
 
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