If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[DP]

I repeat, I did not learn this from any man, but from my own personal studies. You have to be able to put all of the scriptures together to come to this conclusion. First of all, you do not understand the severity of the wrath that is coming and you have not believed the word of God which says, "we are not appointed to suffer wrath" and that "Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.

The above does not happen when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, as Christ must reign for a thousand years before this heaven and earth are destroyed. By the way, I'm still waiting for you to tell me who the identity of those on white horses.

You don't heed which 'wrath' Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 either! showing how you lie about not getting your understanding from men's pre-trib rapture doctrines!

You show lack of understanding about 2 Peter 3:10 also, since that's about the 'day of the Lord' timing from 1 Thess.5 and Rev.16:15 7th Vial timing as written in God's Word, showing how men's doctrines you heed instead has you all confused. I wouldn't let you babysit my worst dog with the state of confusion your in from men's doctrines.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You don't heed which 'wrath' Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 either! showing how you lie about not getting your understanding from men's pre-trib rapture doctrines!

You show lack of understanding about 2 Peter 3:10 also, since that's about the 'day of the Lord' timing from 1 Thess.5 and Rev.16:15 7th Vial timing as written in God's Word, showing how men's doctrines you heed instead has you all confused. I wouldn't let you babysit my worst dog with the state of confusion your in from men's doctrines.

I haven't lied about anything. That is your assumption. You have continued to avoid my question: who are those riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven?

 

[garee]

I understand what you are saying although I would dispute that being beheaded or crucified comes under common trials and tribulations as opposed to being fired from a job or laughed at by someone. When Paul and others wrote about such things they were very common. The main point I was making is that the Pre Trib position is potentially dangerous because it lulls some people into a false sense of security.

I would agree. The phrase beheaded for the witness of God is just showing who is the head. Our husband Christ.
It a soul shows one doing the will of another, called the witness of men.... the lesser witness than the word that can make them a witness.
The word martyr simply with no other meaning added mean "witness', again with no other meaning attached. No one will receive their new promised incorruptible body with a head of its own until the last day.


It’s our new souls according the new spirit we receive at salvation that we call beheaded. All in Adam die. The headship is never in respect to that which is seen. Therefore all will receive in the twinkling of the eye their new promised bodies.

There will not be any new incorruptible bodies that will never perish hanging around for a literal thousand years. The thousands years as an unknown literal number represents the last days up until the end.

The last trump signals the end of time, judgment day and not the beginning of a literal thousand year reign with Christ on this corrupted fallen order, or at least according to the two witnesses below.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:51

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain “unto the coming of the Lord” shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up “together” with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 4:13

Both together in the twinkling of the eye. Which the phrase twinkling of the eye is not designed, as a metaphor to equal a literal thousand years.

 

[garee]

I haven't lied about anything. That is your assumption. You have continued to avoid my question: who are those riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven.

Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God alone is shown as riding on a white horse. The white horse speaks of his immutable power/authority. He provides the white linen to represent His righteousness, the righteousness Christians will be found with.

 

[garee]

I repeat, I did not learn this from any man, but from my own personal studies. You have to be able to put all of the scriptures together to come to this conclusion. First of all, you do not understand the severity of the wrath that is coming and you have not believed the word of God which says, "we are not appointed to suffer wrath" and that "Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.

Can’t be any more severe than eternal damnation, the wrath we do not suffer seeing Christ suffered in our stead. Jesus rescues us from all wrath... he does not offer partial grace. He performs all that is appointed to us. Its how he makes our hearts soft so that we can receive the incorruptible seed of His word by which all men are born again from above by and through. .

 

[Ahwatukee]

Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God alone is shown as riding on a white horse. The white horse speaks of his immutable power/authority. He provides the white linen to represent His righteousness, the righteousness Christians will be found with.

Hi garee,

What you just posted above has nothing to do with my question. Here is the actual scripture:

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. "

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Those who are following him out of heaven is the bride/church. In Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church receiving their fine linen, white and clean and they are following Christ out of heaven, which demonstrates that the church is already in heaven when Christ returns to end the age.

 

[Persuaded]

Hi garee,

What you just posted above has nothing to do with my question. Here is the actual scripture:

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. "

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Those who are following him out of heaven is the bride/church. In Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church receiving their fine linen, white and clean and they are following Christ out of heaven, which demonstrates that the church is already in heaven when Christ returns to end the age.

I have a couple of questions for you pre-trib folks.

Who are the saints that suffer at the hands of the anti-christ during the time of tribulation?
Why do they suffer and you are exempt?
Why are some saints left behind, as some have suggested, while you are not?
When do they get their new body and white robes?

Please, no opinions, just facts based on Scripture in context.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Persuaded,

Who are the saints that suffer at the hands of the anti-christ during the time of tribulation?

This is who they are:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Why do they suffer and you are exempt?

The great tribulation saints are those who will have become believer's after the church has been removed. This group may be people who heard of Jesus, but continue to reject him and possible those proclaiming to be in Christ but will have been willfully living according to the sinful nature when Christ comes for his bride. In that case, those who don't go will be likened to those 5 bridesmaids whose lamps had gone out and who had no extra oil. In any case, GTS will be those who will not have received Christ prior to His coming to gather the church.

When do they get their new body and white robes?

When Christ comes for his bride, the church, he will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who will have died in him. Their bodies will be resurrected into those immoral, glorified bodies and their spirits/souls will be reunited with those now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal, glorified bodies and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (See 1 thes.4:13-18 & 1 Cor.15:51-53)

The great tribulation saints will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which is demonstrated in Rev.20:4-6. These are those who will have been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. (See Rev.20:4-6)

 

[Persuaded]

Hello Persuaded,



This is who they are:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."



The great tribulation saints are those who will have become believer's after the church has been removed. This group may be people who heard of Jesus, but continue to reject him and possible those proclaiming to be in Christ but will have been willfully living according to the sinful nature when Christ comes for his bride. In that case, those who don't go will be likened to those 5 bridesmaids whose lamps had gone out and who had no extra oil. In any case, GTS will be those who will not have received Christ prior to His coming to gather the church.



When Christ comes for his bride, the church, he will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who will have died in him. Their bodies will be resurrected into those immoral, glorified bodies and their spirits/souls will be reunited with those now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal, glorified bodies and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (See 1 thes.4:13-18 & 1 Cor.15:51-53)

The great tribulation saints will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which is demonstrated in Rev.20:4-6. These are those who will have been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. (See Rev.20:4-6)

Rev. 20:5,6
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

These verses clearly states that only those are in the first resurrection will be priest and shall reign with him for 1000 years.
These verses also clearly state that this is the first resurrection.
These verses also clearly state that only those in the first resurrection shall escape the power of the second death.
I want to be in that first resurrection so I can I can be a priest and rule and reign with my Lord and escape the power of the second death.

Now twist those Scriptures again to try and prove your point.
You still have not provided Scripture to support that the tribulation Saints are those saved during the tribulation

 

[hornetguy]

This is another concept that we keep telling you, but you don't listen.

It has nothing to do with not listening... we just don't agree with your conclusion.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev. 20:5,6
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These people that are resurrected at the end of the thousand years are the unrighteous dead from the beginning of history. This is called the great white throne judgment. Those who take part in the resurrections that take place prior to the thousand years are not judged at the great white throne judgment, but are judged at the Bema seat of Christ, not for sins, but for works, whether bad or good (2 Cor.5:10). The Lord also says that his reward will be with him at his appearing, which will be at least a thousand years prior to the great white throne judgment. If you will notice, John says, "I saw the dead" which is in reference to the spiritually dead, as in, not saved. Also, if you will notice, their spirits are coming out of Hades, which is not good if they're coming from there.

These verses clearly states that only those are in the first resurrection will be priest and shall reign with him for 1000 years. These verses also clearly state that this is the first resurrection. These verses also clearly state that only those in the first resurrection shall escape the power of the second death.

The "first resurrection" does not mean "Only resurrection." There are in fact several resurrections that are apart of the first resurrection, as follows:

* Jesus the first fruits (1 Cor.15:23)

* The church as his appearing (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above belong to the first resurrection.

 

[bikerchaz]

Wow!. Sorry Chuckt, I still don't get you. I did get bamboozled, and confusion. What will happen will happen, I trust Jesus to do what ever the Father leads Him to.

I trust God that when He has made Jesus enemy's His foot stool Jesus will return. I have never liked the word 'rapture' I do like second coming, or return though. Just as I am not keen on the word 'Heaven' as a place where we will be with the Lord, Jesus only mentions 'Kingdom' as a place we will be with Him, I like that, but now I am digressing.

There is so much rubbish within this world where we live, there is so much hate and discord. There is so much me me me me me, that unless we all just look to Jesus we could all be in danger of missing everything. So, if we look toward Jesus dose it matter what will happen? From the time of Jesus assention until now, those who follow Jesus have been beaten, and killed.

We do not need to know the ins and outs of the death throws of those who have been killed, Just that when it is our turn to die we will be with Jesus in our next conscious moment, and of that the Holy Spirit gives me conformation. We are told to be ready, we are told that if we are not there will be consequences if we are caught unaware.

I also perceive within the Spirit that we will be given the meanings of figurative scripture when we need it, I am not talking Church I am talking individuals. As our relationship with God is based on an individual and solely personal level, so will be our knowledge when it is required, a bit like; 'we should not think what to say before hand'. So when we need it God will let us know what we need to, to face whatever we will have to face when the time comes.

I do understand that the most important thing we can do is love each other without limits. Not taking sides, not wanting to push our own thoughts and agenda's. "Unity commands a blessing", discord does not.

God bless.

 

[Persuaded]

These people that are resurrected at the end of the thousand years are the unrighteous dead from the beginning of history. This is called the great white throne judgment. Those who take part in the resurrections that take place prior to the thousand years are not judged at the great white throne judgment, but are judged at the Bema seat of Christ, not for sins, but for works, whether bad or good (2 Cor.5:10). The Lord also says that his reward will be with him at his appearing, which will be at least a thousand years prior to the great white throne judgment. If you will notice, John says, "I saw the dead" which is in reference to the spiritually dead, as in, not saved. Also, if you will notice, their spirits are coming out of Hades, which is not good if they're coming from there.



The "first resurrection" does not mean "Only resurrection." There are in fact several resurrections that are apart of the first resurrection, as follows:

* Jesus the first fruits (1 Cor.15:23)

* The church as his appearing (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above belong to the first resurrection.

So you are so smart that you know that when God told John to wright "first resurrection" He did not really mean first.
That in fact first really means several.
You do think highly of your self.

I think I will take God's clearly stated facts in these verses.
First is first, is first, is first, is first.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Persuaded,

want to be in that first resurrection so I can I can be a priest and rule and reign with my Lord and escape the power of the second death.

If you were present at the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4-6, you would have to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God. The church and the great tribulation saints are two different groups. The very fact that the elder is introducing them and John doesn't know who they are, demonstrates that they are not the church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So you are so smart that you know that when God told John to wright "first resurrection" He did not really mean first.
That in fact first really means several.

Persuaded,

The reason that I know that the first resurrection is made up of several resurrections which I previously mentioned is because there are other resurrections that take place prior to the one in Rev.20:4-6. In other words, if Rev.20:4-6 is the only resurrection, what resurrection do the others belong to, the pre-first resurrection?

You do think highly of your self.

That's not the reason. The reason is that, God rewards those who diligently searches his word and I have been doing so for over 40 years, with much study on end-time events. I basically live in Revelation and that because I consider it to be the grand central station of the Bible.

 

[Persuaded]

Hi Persuaded,



If you were present at the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4-6, you would have to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God. The church and the great tribulation saints are two different groups. The very fact that the elder is introducing them and John doesn't know who they are, demonstrates that they are not the church.[/COLOR]

The seals and trumps are the tribulation and the bowls are the wrath.
Two different words with two different means. Learn the difference!
Saints have always suffered tribulation, some more than others.
Tribulation comes at the hands of man, and natural disasters.
The saints, ALL saints, escape the wrath because the first resurrection comes at the seventh/last trump when Jesus returns with all the saints that have died before and then the bowls of God's wrath is poured out on the earth.

When God's children, the saints, have suffered so much at the hands of evil men and also natural disasters down through the ages of time, why do so many think that they are so rightious and holy that they will not suffer as well.

Answer that question for me.
Why you and not those who have, are now, and will suffer in the future?

 

[hornetguy]

I have a question for you...

If, by spending 40 years in John's revelation, you have fully understood it.... what difference is that going to make on your salvation?

By "knowing" the correct(?) sequence of events, and which bowl is which, and what the white horse means, and who "raptures" first, second, or third.....

Does knowing ANY of that change how you are living your life every day, in Jesus? If so, how?

 

[notuptome]

I have a couple of questions for you pre-trib folks.

Who are the saints that suffer at the hands of the anti-christ during the time of tribulation?
Why do they suffer and you are exempt?
Why are some saints left behind, as some have suggested, while you are not?
When do they get their new body and white robes?

Please, no opinions, just facts based on Scripture in context.

They are tribulation saints. Likely they are the result of the 144,000 witnesses God raises up in the tribulation.

They are part of Israel and like the OT prophets they endure the suffering of the judgment of God albeit with strength of the Spirit to overcome.

No saints are left behind as you suppose. They are converted because of the rapture and their knowledge of the scriptures. They will be prompted to study the scriptures and come to know Christ because of the events surrounding the rapture of the church.

When they are martyred they are joined with the church already in the presence of the Lord. The two witnesses are slain and resurrected right before the eyes of the unbelieving world. Taken up into heaven as a testimony of Gods saving power.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

I have a couple of questions for you pre-trib folks.

Who are the saints that suffer at the hands of the anti-christ during the time of tribulation?
Why do they suffer and you are exempt?
Why are some saints left behind, as some have suggested, while you are not?
When do they get their new body and white robes?

Please, no opinions, just facts based on Scripture in context.

Sorry, I suffer at times trying to make a point. But what you offered as far as the verse goes my opinion remains the same the white horse represents the immutable authority of God the authority given to others as the righteousness of Christ in which we are clothed in. I am not a dispensationalist a belief of a previous assembly I did attend as a new believer. Today I lean more towards Amil position .No literal thousand years.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sorry, I suffer at times trying to make a point. But what you offered as far as the verse goes my opinion remains the same the white horse represents the immutable authority of God the authority given to others as the righteousness of Christ in which we are clothed in. I am not a dispensationalist a belief of a previous assembly I did attend as a new believer. Today I lean more towards Amil position .No literal thousand years.

So, you don't believe what it is literally saying in the scripture about the Lord descending out of heaven on a white horse with the armies of heaven following behind him on white horses and they wearing fine line, white and clean? This is a detailed account of Jesus returning to end the age. To spiritualize distorts the literal meaning of what is taking place.

Sorry to hear about the Amil thing. That's a very big problem